Mike
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Everything posted by Mike
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Did you not see that I said had done that academic approach for 2 months in 1972. If he summarizes what those links taught him, and shortened his lengthy posts, then I might see it in skim reading his posts. Could it be that you too are distracted by your grinding an axe for VPW? Are you processing my posts much?
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I have told you the exact opposite story. Didn't I tell you that at the 1972 Rock, I asked him about the canon and he said he never teaches on that? That was 4 months after I took the class. I asked Chris Geer and he told me a better plan for studying this topic is within the Bible. He didn't give me any tips on the canon either; just pointed me in the right direction. I had to do all the work myself. That I am willing to show you. You sound like some salesman who has a canned rap that they get good at, but when I throw in something your canned rap cant handle, you just pause, and go back to the canned rap. That kind of strategy was documented just this week by someone who had met a Mormon in a bar. You are just going to have to accept that your accusing me of being little minded (almost immediately run to what wierwille says) is very little minded of you. Let's expand our minds a little and see what the Word says about the canon.
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I like what you wrote above. The only tiny disagreement is this: his body did not change from being physical to non-physical. I am guessing that his blood DID change from physical to something spiritual that I do not understand, nor have had any teaching on that i can remember. Wasn't his blood essentially drained out at the crucifixion?
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Obviously? ! That would depend on where you are looking from and with what perspective: what is obvious and what is not. Right? Adopt one perspective and a scene is clear; adopt another perspective and the same scene has occlusions. No, clicking on T-Bone's links is what I said I did NOT want to do. For the reason why I operate in this limited, filtered way, see my arguments to T-Bone, especially where I mentioned logic, Godel, and Postulates. Be prepared to hear from me, what may be for you, the first arguments advocating for the benefits of a closed mind. Sometimes an open mind is the best perspective; sometimes not. Perspective, or viewing point, is a result of your Postulate set. Most people don't even know what their fundamental Postulates are. That means they never deliberately tinkered with them. So, no thanks for the academic suggestion; been there done that. But an un-turned stone for you (maybe) is to become aware of your hidden Postulates at the very least, and then someday tinker with them to see what happens. I'm the kinda guy that likes to leave no stone un-turned. How about you? It sounds like another un-turned stone for you is reading 2 Timothy and 2 Peter with my structure tips in mind. I can wait. I am completely uninterested in your impressions as to when various books of the Bible were written, according to academic standards. If the dates were important, they'd be included in the texts as part of the revelation. What you and others here like to do is read around what good scriptures did survive via the gentle hand of God. I like to read the content of what survived, and start from there with hammering out accuracy. So, you said you were interested in learning this canon stuff, based on what was to me, a trivial comment I made in that other thread on who originally did the canon we now have in the KJV. But now that you started this thread it seems like instead of you learning some new things for your yourself, you are actually pushing to teach me something you are already comfortable with. I'm not interested. I went far enough down that rabbit hole in 1972. Did you ever get to the point where you worked the KJV (and others) with the tools and keys that PFAL provides? Or did you go along with the social parade of the ministry, and just kiss up to leadership while the party lasted, and then turned bitter from where the parade ended? What did you like about PFAL while ministry life was going well for you? Do you seek that kind of comradely again? Did you ever get someone into the Word with PFAL who was thankful then, and is still thankful now? That is another un-turned stone for some. Anyway, I await you trying some new tricks for your pony show. Read those 2 late Epistles, and we have something to talk about. Do you need me to tell you again, or in a different manner, that I will not go the academic route?
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Please check out those posts with T-Bone, because in them I outlined where I want to go on this thread. It will save me the typing. I'd like to only contribute some of the Bible verses that helped me in those years when I was hot on this topic of the NT canon. Added to that is what I wrote up then. Did you have a chance to read 2 Timothy and 2 Peter ? If so, did you see the abababababa structure I found in 2 Tim? And the aba structure in 2 Peter?
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No. The modern academic writers of articles and books on the Bible. The ones that included the canon I would sample in libraries and bookstores, or hear about them from sources outside TWI, like ministers that I talked to in other churches. These:" What bothered me most is how obvious some of the writers were that were unbelievers. They were writing about the Bible like is was a cunningly devised fable,..." They were writing about the Bible in modern English, from the late 1800s to the present. Luckily, I only spent a couple months max on reading these writers and what they had to say about the NT canon.
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You were posting too fasty for me. Please slow down a little.
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No. Those were minor considerations. The canon was the mystery I was chasing, and in the process of doing that unbelieving mud was being slung in my face. What bothered me most is how obvious some of the writers were that were unbelievers. They were writing about the Bible like is was a cunningly devised fable, but with disguised language so as to not offend believing, but unintelligent readers. They were trying to entertain two audiences, to reel the innocent one in and rob them of their believing that the Word of God is the Will of God. Once the integrity of the Word is undermined in a reader, what's the point of studying the Bible more? Nefarious at best, IMO.
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Oops! Pardon me. I think I must have made a wrong turn back there. I thought I was on the "New Testament Canon" thread. HONEST! I didn't mean to interrupt.
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You may have been skimming my posts, because I don't think I said that. I said.... I think.... I was tired then.... and tired now. I think I said that all I have to offer on this thread is the Bible verses I collected for 10 years, and a few writings I did 30-40 years ago about what I saw in that large collection. Did you find my Postulates Policy text to WW? I am not interested in tinlkring with my Postulates any more.
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Well, I was too tired to go dancing. Too much posting costs me energy at times. Well, thanks for letting me know which Postulates you are starting from. I explained what I mean by Postulates to WordWolf. You may find it by searching "Godel" Knowing that makes it MUCH easier for me to skim read your posts. I will engage more with those who want to talk content. I have had MANY teachers to choose and sample and focus on. Your distraction with VPW bashing, is too distracting for me to devote serious time to. Sometimes I can get into good discussions here with less distracted/distracting posters. You'll have to read our posts together, and how I discuss things in depth with them.
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Sorry if I go t hot under the collar in my last response to you. I'd rather discuss the scripture references that I found in my 10 year search for canon info. Do you have any verses you can post on this topic? THAT kind of a discussion we can have. But to hear you trash my beloved teachers and what Word I love today will severely limit our discussion. I really dislike academia more and more. Let's talk verses on this topic. Have you noticed the ones I already brought up?
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Sorry, real scholars did not save my life and drag me out of the gutter. In the 1990s I compared what I saw at top flight universities with what I saw in the 1970s. Back then there was not total darkness on campus, in the 1990s it was total darkness. VPW was not my only source for suspecting academia in the devil's hip pocket. It is the same as in the days of the Pharisees there. The more you post on academic hoidy toidyies, the less I am interested in what YOU say. I don't like the sources you admire; not at all. I do fine with God from what I learned in PFAL. No need here to change to the god of this world. Remember, it says that the adversary offered it all to Jesus, because it was given to him by Adam and he divvies it out to whomever he chooses, baring where God thwarts him. No thanks, the god of this world and the universities of this are not to be trusted. The counterfeit is close to the genuine. I took a class that enables me to separate truth from error, and the modern day sources of the most devilish error I am not interested in. I got enough info to satisfy me about textual criticism from the introduction to our Inter-Linear Greek text.
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Thanks much. I enjoyed the gentlemanly way things developed.
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This topic of the canon bothered me a lot almost 50 years ago. I searched outside the Bible for answers and only found discouragement. Oddly, it was Chris Geer who steered me to inquire within the Bible, instead of academic history approaches. He was a good guy then at Rye NY, before he went Corps. The Corps ruined a lot, IMO. I thought at first that it wasn't possible for the NT writers to know what happened in the centuries after they wrote. Boy! Was I wrong! But I was very new in the Word then, and that's why it didn't occur to me to look within the Bible for the canon issues. For the next ten years nearly every time I opened my Bible I saw another verse to add to my collection. Z In a nutshell what I found all over, old and new testaments, was that it was decent and in order for the men to whom God gave His revelations to, also received the revelation as to how to have it preserved and passed on, canonical issues included. Second Timothy, and Second Peter were the epitome of this. After the early 80s I put it aside happy with the canon, and then other, bigger issues came up like the meltdown.
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I mentioned at least once that if VPW taught any of what I said, I did not get it from him; none of it.
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Something is wrong. I may have had the wrong word or way wrong spelling. I just looked in Wikipedia and got the feeling I made a mistake. Maybe it is in Bullinger somewhere. They put numbers in the margin to verify that copies were accurate.
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Smile, smile, smile
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No. I said about all I can remember from many years ago. I am not up to speed on this topic. I simply answered a question with what I finally settled upon in the early 80s. There is plenty written on it out there. This was my favorite topic from about 1972 to '82. I have not touched it then. Today was my first review of it since then, I think. I may have posted a little on it long ago.
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Before I do that, I'll collect my comments on the other thread and re-write a little to post here. I'm headed out to go dancing with the Deadheads soon, so not today.
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Please don't think it was an extensive collaboration. Over the course of about 10 years, we met a total of 3 times for discussion, and exchanged a few letters. He confirmed some of what I wrote, nixxed one, and added some items for me to consider. I'll share what I know.
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I don't know anything about that. I had to look up what Matthaean meant. It was never important to me exactly which came first.
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NOOOOOO I am saying that Paul calls it a vision in Acts 26:19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven." That was KJV. The vision had to have sound for Paul to be obedient to it.
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Please don't accuse me of lying. It doesn't help the conversation at all. So you see what Paul said to King Agrippa in that 3rd Acts passage? I finally found it with the search engine and "Agrippa."
