Mike
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Everything posted by Mike
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Hey! A zero blather exchange. We're doing better.
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The NT canon Top-Down Theory is a reality to some extent. There are gaps and uncertainties, the farther DOWN in time it looks. The NT canon Bottom-Up Theory (mine) is a reality to some extent. There are gaps and uncertainties the farther UP in time it looks. But it sees the apostolic years, the First Century, with brilliant clarity and authority.
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oooh! I forgot about the third (and last) installment of my 1972ish paper. (it's almost done) You'll need blather goggles for that. Did I ever tell you how I outfitted myself with blather goggles? It's easy.
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I call for a blather truce. We can better discuss the varioous canon theories that way.
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I don’t mean to be dismissive above. You had quoted my line: "Now God does not always get His will." (late edit) It’s just that you’re bringing up a huge subject: the different layers or the different wills of God. God’s overall, top level will is to tolerate sin. But His will at our level is to not like it, because it is against His will at our level. God always gets His way in the long run, in time. But right now, at our level on the timescales we have to wait for that to happen. */*/*/* But could you try, eventually, to show how this fits in to the canon theories being presented?
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I don't see where this good point of yours is applicable in this thread.
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You had quoted my line: "Now God does not always get His will." (late edit) I wonder why you missed that gem in your Bible reading. Maybe you were holding on too tight to the idea that God does everything? Sin is ONE time where God's will is being violated. Right now the whole creation groans and is in pain, it says in scripture. That is not God's will. Disease and death are enemies of God it says, and yet they happen.
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Another factual error. I found the NASB on my own in the 1970s, and LOVED IT. This was posted by me more than once lately; overlooked by you. Years later, on an SNT tape, Craig gave a hearty endorsement of NASB, and said it was one of the best. I guess you overlooked that also. It will be fascinating to see how many of the 2 Timothy points (there are many) you will overlook as you pound out a definite ababababab stucture, with "a" being ad-hominems on me, and "b" is your usual blather extolling your anti-idol
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That response gets an "a," and I don't mean "A."
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I see you are rather bereft of content argument above. But there's enough for me to pull out your error, when I feel like it. Meanwhile, I get the message: you are short on logic and critical thinking skills FOR THE TOPIC, so you resort to a series of ad hominem attacks on me. and the usual blather on your anti-idol. Your avoiding my points of logic, by literary temper tantrum, shows to all (and greatly encourages me) that I am making progress in my thesis here. I can apply the letter "a" the ad hominems, and the letter "b" to the blathering at anti-idol. Then we could watch the "ababababab" structure in your posts past. */*/*/*/*/*/* So, besides the shots fired, what did you think of the "ababababa" explanation in 2 Timothy, Mrs. Lincoln?
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WoW! I got caught up on all my responding, I think. Just for this page, though. Who knows how many posts I missed on previous pages.
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I agree. It also has gaps and uncertainties in the story, and sometimes bad guys were involved on both sides. It was centuries of fighting. STILL I agree with the above from you in principle. IN ADDITION to what you are talking about, the Bottom-Up approach with the scriptures has some unique certainties, such as the Author having complete foreknowledge and wisdom.
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I am glad to say that, after oodles of lines of anti-idol blather up there, I can finally agree with that whole paragraph... almost. I'd delete the unbolded words and put the word "will." ...and change "if to "since." SINCE, God’s message is truly from Him - and it’s important for us to know - it makes sense that He would make sure His message was supervised…preserved…guarded by qualified people who held the Scriptures in high regard. Thus a natural and practical method such as the development of the NT canon seems likely His will. Now God does not always get His will, and there are a few twists and turns in that canon development, that I don't need to know much about. So this is the Top-Down approach historically, looking back in time, or downward on a vertical time scale. What I am proposing, a Bottom-Up approach, is NOT a negation of the Top-Down approach. In my mind, however, it also is a demotion of the Top-Down approach in the learning curriculum for Bible students. But I have the advantage of having seen ALL the verses in my trove. No one here has had a chance to see them yet at all. */*/* I am all for changing the vertical time scale to the standard horizontal, and the Top-Down, Bottom-Up terminology. Any ideas for better buzz words. Please stifle the humor. Oh who am I kidding? Show me your fight/flight humor. I'm used to it and can easily delete it from the screenplay.
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To encourage readers of His Word to be encouraged to trust the Bible as a primary source in seeking God. Man has mishandled to some degree, and in some places the accuracy of the words in a translation or version are not so clear. Same goes with the collection of the Books of the Bible. The history of the Canon we do have reaching far back is wobbly as it peeks back farther and farther to the First Century. There are lots of ways people mistrust the thousands of Bible versions and the several competing canons, but the standard canon story is a big discourager to those young Bible fans stumble upon it. I had it shoved in my face by unbelievers I was trying to witness to on NYC commuter trains in the early 1970s. I was amazed at all the fun hints my Daddy left in the scriptures to assure His readers that He produced the originals, and that He was not an Absent Author. If we have problems in His text, we can complain to management. Remember, Our Daddy is the Author and we have access to His throne room. Just like God loves playing with His kids with SIT, He lovers leaving all kinds of treasures (hints sometimes) for us to find in His Word when we trust it. */*/* "...Why would God have to resort to planting hints in the Bible (hints about WHAT- who knows?!?!) which only a couple of short-sighted deluded swamis can decrypt?" In addition to the above paragraphs, I answer that question in my PFAL based paper from the 1970s. I have only posted a fraction of it. Have you read it? It is done in full conformity to the model I was taught, and my commentary is totally PFAL. But the scriptures speak for them selves. I have hardly posted any other scriptures from my canon collection here, besides fragmentary verses from 2 Timothy, those two long lists in Installment #2. Those lists are the expansion of the "ababababababa" structure I mentioned a lot. One list corresponds to the "a"s and the other list corresponds to the "b"s.
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Oops! I pasted it from Nathan_Jr's post #1. LoL I wanted my banner to be as official as possible, changing as little as possible in Nathan_Jr's original wording... Dang! That means I have to correct it an post it again. I hate it when that happens. This thread is established to explore this proposition: The New Testament Canon was assembled by Paul, Timothy, Mark, Luke, and John. And we are here to discuss passages in II Timothy that support this idea.
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But I don't mind if other approaches to the canon are discussed here. I am able to discuss all sorts of ideas, even some that are uncomfortably different and opposed to all that I stand for. I think we should allow other theories to be discussed here, but I have my favorite, and it will take some time for me to post all that I have. As I take breaks for reading my old notes, others should feel free to focus on the details and implications of specific ideas that are to be found in the many links supplied here already. Instead of just links to large works, I'd like to see the salient points brought here to paste for discussion of ideas.
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Thanks, Nathan_Jr, for indulging my desire to satisfy your curiosity, and for being so clear about this thread’s intent in Post #1. THIS THREAD is established to explore this proposition: The New Testament cannon was assembled by Timothy, Mark, Luke, John and Paul, and we are here to discuss passages in II Timothy that support this idea.
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"Is seeking confirmation bias investigation?" Yes, it is one legitimate form of investigation. It can be overused, and that aint good. It can be underused, and that aint good. */*/*/*/* "When one knows how (H-O-W) to investigate, to research, one follows the evidence wherever it leads." YES! ...and that includes internal Biblical evidence, which I am doing, and is being resisted. There is a whole catalog of different kinds of evidence forms. I looked at your format for investigation, intensely in 1972, and spotty since then You should broaden your horizons and use other kinds of investigative methods. There is a whole catalog of them too.
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I think God and VPW and a bunch of others worked out the PFAL writings, the collaterals. THAT part I accept totally. It is my BIG Postulate. The other writings and tapes of VPW are very good in my eyes, for the most part, but I don't try to remember they may have some error, or be early stages in his learning and incomplete. There are plenty of others outside this circle that I can get good data from. I rate all teachings by how well they conform to what I know from my collateral study.
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I am totally devoted to getting back to the original God-breathed word, and will not budge from that or any of the other great things VPW taught me. It sounds like you still have a faulty understanding of my methods. I have clear observations of your Top-Down historical artifacts approach, and I originally started my canon research that way. I abandoned it quickly, but still checked in periodically on it. Reading your links is an example of my latest checking in on that approach. My approach, of working from the Bottom-Up seems to be far from your understanding or desires. I am looking within the Bible for clues. You are looking in archeology for clues. Both are incomplete. I think the internal Bible clues were entirely managed by God. The archeology clues are partially managed by the adversary.
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I am reading it now, and liked seeing this: "Presumably, as each Gospel was completed, it was approved (cf. John 21:24, “we know that his testimony is true”) and used for public reading, first in the place of its composition, then copied and circulated to other churches. The collecting of Paul’s letters must have begun early, in the apostle’s own lifetime. He himself prescribed (Col. 4:16) that two churches interchange two of his letters (making copies, naturally); from that it was the natural step to their collecting copies of his other letters as well." It is this process that I am tracking from withing the scriptures. My 2Timothy paper from the 1970s is a highly detailed example of this. I'll continue reading. I kinda like this article... so far. Usually things like this slowly plant seeds of doubt, and then hit the reader at the end with "...did God REALLY say...?" in one way or another, just like the adversary did with Eve.
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You have a good point. I am writing all this now as a beta class or book. It is all a shambles. If I had zero interruptions it could be a linear, well thought through presentation. But then it wouldnt be any fun. Plus, in this beta mode, I am discovering what communicates my ideas well and what does not. I will try to answer as many questions as possible, and I thank you for reading my attempts. Are you beginning to see the story that 2 Timothy alludes to? They were wrapping up Paul's whole ministry just before his execution so his writings would survive his death. That means 2 Timoth is a canon story, involving the inside players, at a VERY early date.
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I'm surprised, that I still have to correct posters on my position. I am not "a devotee of all things Wierwille." I do dare to distance myself from, and even disagree with some of his words, both spoken and written. I am a devotee of his final written editions of the collaterals, and mag articles. I adopted this position in 1998. Before 1998 I experimented and tinkered with what I was a devotee of, and what I distanced myself from. I started out conflicted in the 1970s, sometimes distancing myself from items in VPW;s teaching, and sometimes accepting them whole heartedly. It went issue by issue in those days. Once I got the Trinity cleared up and finished, I was able to deal with more issues and faster. By around 1982 I was a big enough devotee of "most things Wierwille" to drop everything and go WoW. I was still 15 years away from totally accepting the collaterals in 1982. I went through a few discouraged years after the meltdown in 1986. It has been a roller coaster fride for this devotee of some things Wierwille.
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Yes, that is right. Those kids have the right idea of how to investigate, but unfortunately they will eventually find the answer they do not want, because Santa does not exist. But the true, loving, and smart God Almighty DOES exist, and He want to guide and help us, even though we were born in enemy territory. He does put things in ancient writings for modern people. Do you still believe that? I do. I believe it IN SPITE of all the baloney that happened at TWI. God is bigger than TWI and VPW.
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Nathan asks a lot of questions; not sure if we are talking about the same one. He asked a couple of times about how "ababababab" contributes to understanding the canon, and I said I had answered that in the detailed text I posted of my old paper on 2 Timothy details. Of course that text was in 2 installments, both buried now, and the 3rd and 4th installments have not been edited from their raw OCR processing yet. Did you see those two installments of text on Timothy? Here they are on page 8: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25333-new-testament-canon/page/8/ 1st installment – page 8 @ 30% mark, 23 hours ago, Sat 10-15-22 ~ 9:00 am Pacific Time 2nd installment – page 8 @ 55% mark, 22 hours ago, Sat 10-15-22 ~ 10 am Pacific Time */*/*/*/* Those installments explain what the ababababababa thing was all about. The explanation is in the two long lists of verses in 2 Timothy. It would be easier for readers if I could post all 4 installments in one post. I wonder how big a post the software can handle? | wonder how bit a post the management can handle?
