Mike

No, it is NOT according to me that if we go out and sin boldly "...we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?" NO, not right at all. That is up to God, and He just got His big 1942 job done. He may not need you for a big job. AND most crucially, God can look ahead and see if you would be able to get a big job done. Are you able? */*/*/* You wrote: "So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please?" REWARDS, both now and later. That's the reason Jesus put up with the cross: God gave him plenty of visions of the future that his pain would buy. Jesus saw his PAYCHECK in those future visions. Paul saw the same thing and he ran so he could OBTAIN rewards, as he put it. There are plenty of reasons to hang in there as LONG as possible, and the same reasons apply to get back in fellowship as QUICKLY as possible. Are you familiar with 1 Cor chapter 3? The first half is devoted to the idea of winning rewards, and avoiding the loss of rewards.

I appreciate a lot of your thinking out loud, like when you wrote: "Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus. " Thank you. Might I add that sometimes God’s willingness to tolerate extremes of imperfection in His workers has been to a strategic advantage for Him. Paul is an extreme example of this. God turns the tables on the adversary is some pretty surprising ways; ways we’d NEVER conceive, or approve of, if given advanced notice. */*/*/*/* You then wrote: “That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker? Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth. It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in. The big job I see VPW accomplishing is the set of written forms of PFAL, the collateral books especially. The focus of that end product of the 1942 promise is pure and pristine, and leads readers to a good relationship with the Father and His son, the living Christ Jesus. But you are right, fredgrant, about TWI being focused on power and other things, depending on WHEN you look at it, and what factions within it you look at. TWI was like a swirling marble cake of light and dark spots, and still is to some degree, and with the same potential. TWI is only as good as those with gift-ministries within it make it to be, and people have their ups and downs. But the big job that VPW got done is the collaterals. There is ZERO new doctrine in them, only clarifications on the earlier established doctrine. The revelations within the collaterals came from all sorts of men of God, and mostly VPW’s big job was to collect the right parts for us. When people freely come back to written PFAL, and don’t bring with them all the baggage of an over-supervised past exposure, the cumulative effect of all that authoritative clarification of the original revelation can be again appreciated, and better the second time around.

Now THAT'S funny!

I addressed that very idea in my post. First reference starts in the sentence #4: Not God as I understood Him from the Bible, either. …initially But as I studied the Bible over the decades my understanding of God has changed some. When I first opened up the Bible in the early 1970s I was 22 years old. By that age I had absorbed churchy and cultural impressions as to what Bible teachers should be like. I envisioned Jesus-like characters could be the only ones God could entrust with big jobs. That’s how we humans must do it, I figured, when we hire out jobs to people. We want to examine a candidate’s past record, and see that they have been good, and thus predict that in the future they will probably be good for the job. ... The second time I bring up this idea is 3 times, at the end: ...I guess God’s criteria for selecting His big job workers is a lot different than the criteria we must use in selecting our Sunday School teachers. Why is this? Because we can only look at the past actions of a person, and we know nothing of their future actions, and we know nothing of their heart. But God does know a person’s future actions, and He does know their hearts. I guess God is far more interested in getting His big jobs accomplished, and less interested in conforming to our limited ways of judging candidates for a job.

Not God as I understood Him from the Bible, either. …initially But as I studied the Bible over the decades my understanding of God has changed some. When I first opened up the Bible in the early 1970s I was 22 years old. By that age I had absorbed churchy and cultural impressions as to what Bible teachers should be like. I envisioned Jesus-like characters could be the only ones God could entrust with big jobs. That’s how we humans must do it, I figured, when we hire out jobs to people. We want to examine a candidate’s past record, and see that they have been good, and thus predict that in the future they will probably be good for the job. So this early innocent impression of how things worked in the Bible was a deep expectation, as I started reading the Bible. But soon this expectation was challenged some, as I read in Genesis. I noticed right away that the story of Noah seemed to have some rather odd post-Flood scenes with Noah’s family that had to be censored out of the children’s Sunday School version… I guess. One clear thing is that Noah got drunk. Reading along the challenges got greater as I read about young Abraham involved in some kind of crazy wife-swapping protection scheme, but was stopped by the pagan Pharoah, who knew better. Later, Abraham had a child with Hagar, with Sarah’s approval? I also seem to remember him having concubines. The children’s Bible stories never had these parts in them, did they? It doesn’t stop there. My whole notion of who God could entrust big jobs to was constantly challenged in Genesis. I think we can skip Abraham’s son Isaac, after reading somewhere he had no concubines. But the grandson, Jacob, was a doozy! His name, before God changed it, meant “con artist” and he stole his brother’s birthright… with God’s approval??? He also had at least 4 wives, and maybe a concubine. I wonder how Sunday School teachers define “concubine” for the pre-pubescent children? Past the book of Genesis, the stories still are challenging to me. I marvel at God’s forgiveness of our future sins. Why doesn’t anyone ever talk about this? Look at all those revelations and miracles He gave to young David, fully foreknowing that in mid-life crisis David would resort to murdering his best friend. And how did God’s people receive the Psalms of David? Were the relatives of Uriah satisfied with David’s public repenting? Do you think that Bathsheba was David’s first “mistake,” or did he gradually work his way up to having sex with his best friend’s wife? Life experiences tell me it was the latter. And I did not realize the extent of Solomon’s late-life corruption until recent decades. What was the time-line of his life like? How deep into his concubines and their idols could he get, and still be able to pen God-breathed scriptures? I don’t know. It just blows my mind that God would give young Solomon all those revelations, but know in His foreknowledge that old Solomon would get totally corrupt… or nearly totally? Then there is that beautiful prophesy that came to Balaam, who was crookeder than a dog’s hind legs. Why did God entrust such wonderful words to him? John the Baptist was a real weirdo, yet the greatest prophet? Peter was pretty impetuous and had a violent temper, and pretty forgetful at times. Paul was a murdering de-programmer, and God entrusted a lot to him. I guess God’s criteria for selecting His big job workers is a lot different than the criteria we must use in selecting our Sunday School teachers. Why is this? Because we can only look at the past actions of a person, and we know nothing of their future actions, and we know nothing of their heart. But God does know a person’s future actions, and He does know their hearts. I guess God is far more interested in getting His big jobs accomplished, and less interested in conforming to our limited ways of judging candidates for a job.

Please pardon me. Was that in the heat of battle? It would help me to see the exact wording and context. Maybe I can manage to say the same essential content, without the whisper thingy. Meanwhile, I will focus on the content of your most recent response here, and try to respond later.

No, you got that wrong. As I have stated several times now, I see the evangelists ATTITUDES and ACTIVITIES to be indicators that they knew of the need for a list, a future canon, and they they were active in assembling such a list. The contents of their early, preliminary lists we do not have. We do have their inspired writings that reflect their pro-canon ATTITUDES and ACTIVITIES.

Had you read further before asking that you;d have seen that I knew my observations weren't conclusive, so I asked questions: I had written, "Was that a personal difficulty you yourselves had with fluency, or are you decrying the fact that many others in TWI did not graduate to the extreme fluency that is available in SIT?"

A year or two ago here I posted details on my only in-person hearing of VPW operate SIT and interpretation, live, and not a recording. It was fluent. I was very keen on spotting fluency, or lack thereof. This was so that I could lead Excellors' Sessions better for the Intermediate Class we would often run. I think fluency was a problem in TWI, and lots of leaders were stricken by the fears that prevent fluency. I never got to help any of those leaders, but in Excellors' Sessions there was ample chance to help new students with it. So, I was really listening carefully when I finally got the chance to hear VPW. It was years after I got good at ministering fluency in Excellors' Sessions. He was fluent. I lived in New Knoxville town for 2 years, and sat in twigs with Uncle Harry, Liddy, Ruben, and Mal George attending, and all 3 were pretty fluent. Almost everyone who took PFAL could use some occasional 5-senses, mechanical tuning-up of their mechanics of speech, me included.

As I read of your Top-Down approach results, I am learning some good things. To the extent that your studies there have encouraged you to accept the “standard” canon as Authoritative, that is good. I am picking up some traces of that in you, some of the other posters, and some of the links you have provided. My experience with the Top-Down approach in early 1972 was discouraging to me. It made me doubt, on many levels, the veracity of the PFAL recognized KJV canon. My discouraging experience back then may have been due to my immaturity, age 23 and fresh out of the class. It may also have been due to me being exposed to Top-Down approaches done by the radical theologians of that era, 50 years ago. Thomas Altizer’s “God is Dead” theology was on the cover of Time Magazine then. So maybe my PFAL maturity here in 2022 and some better Top-Down approach sources have made it possible for me to learn more. But as soon as I hear things coming from Top-Down approaches, like “2 Timothy and 2 Peter were late RC forgeries,” then I tune out. The valuation of different books in the NT canon by textual criticism and other “scientific” techniques is where I get off the bus. */*/*/* Meanwhile, the Bottom-Up approach seed has been planted here. I think both methods, when handled properly, can encourage us to rely on the Bible canon we have received.

Wait on. But you wont see it from me. Who ever said my theory comes up with an authoritative list of books ? Not me. It does come up with a partial list of early writers and canonizers, and it documents the attitudes and activities of these men had towards the end of the First Century. */*/*/*/* On a completely different topic, I see you folks had some difficulty with SIT fluency, from your frequent "lo shonta" quips. Was that a personal difficulty you yourselves had with fluency, or are you decrying the fact that many others in TWI did not graduate to the extreme fluency that is available in SIT? Just curious. Could be a whole new thread topic.

Number 3 looks a little less scientific than the first two.

That's a lot of bold fonting. I can see an "bababababab" structure to it. Where "a" is not bold fonted and "b" is bold fonted.

Just in case you weren't reading your post it says: Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary noun a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b: the authentic works of a writer c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works The most authoritative list would be one the AUTHOR (God) and or His helpers who wrote it for Him, the ones we see physically as AUTHORS (the apostles).

Just in case you weren't reading your post:

Amen!

Please remember, this is a beta testing of my theory and the large collection of verses I found. I value the testing of these items here.

No, my agenda is to give good reasons for people to come back to PFAL. I try my best in integrate my messages to each thread. Here in this thread I have introduced a new way of looking at the canon. I want that to be part of the discussion, and I get resistance, so I fight back hard. When I encounter less resistance, then I can present my side of the canon story much better. I defend myself from all sorts of attacks and distortions, and then accused of making the thread about me. I am tired of me. Let's talk canon.

At the time the class was filmed, 1967 and the Summer of Love were happening. For years it had been building, but new religions were sprouting all over in the baby-boom population. MANY of them were professing allegiance to Jesus, as well as to Buddha, Confucius, you name it, both ancient and current. It was very common back then for intellectuals to say Jesus was cool, but it was in a Biblically degraded sense. So that part of the class spoke loudly to this old hippie.

Installment #3 This picks up with the “cloak” verse, 2 Tim 4:13 Now we can see chapter 4, verse 13 as one of God’s final instructions to Timothy prior to his journey to see Pau1. The context of preserving the Word builds intensity toward this point. “The cloak that I Paul left at Troas with Carpus, when thou Timothy comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.” Paul is collecting together the remnant of faithful believers: Timothy, Mark and Luke (4:11). The timing of their meeting is close to Paul’s death (4:9), and Timothy is twice told to hurry (4:9,21) . The purpose of the meeting is to profit the ministry (4:11). The overall context (preserving the Word) builds up to 4:13, where the immediate context becomes the preservation of the Word, especially the ministry of the mystery, so that it can be preserved beyond the death of the man of God, Paul. So what do you think they were doing at that meeting? They were pouring over books, parchments, Old Testament writings, writings of the early church; Paul’s seven church epistles, the two epistles to Timothy, Mark’s Gospel (or possibly the bare beginnings of it), possibly Luke’s Gospel and Luke’s Acts of the Apostles, just to name a few. The word “cloak” stands out oddly in 4:13, but is singularly significant. Since all scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction, then there must be some profit to Timothy, for God to have Paul mention this cloak. It couldn’t just be thrown in there because Paul missed his favorite jacket. That would completely deflate the intensity of the context build-up for the final instruction for Timothy’s journey. Here is my theory on this: The reason this particular cloak is mentioned has to do with Oriental customs. In the East a mantle, or cloak, is significant of social standing, prestige and authority. When Paul taught the Word at the School of Tyrannus he wore the mantle or cloak of The Teacher. He had the authority at that school where the beginnings of the ministry of the mystery first sprang to life and spread all throughout Asia Minor (Acts 19:9,10). Since there’s no indication Paul broke this common custom, we can assume he did wear a cloak of authority. There were probably many other occasions in Paul’s ministry as the man of God to the Gentiles, where proper cultural procedures demanded use of the authority cloak. Now he’s telling Timothy to bring a certain cloak at the same time he mentions a LAST meeting with books, parchments, Mark, Luke, and profit to the ministry beyond Paul’s execution the prime topic. What God is doing is building the believing and expectations of Timothy and Mark for that meeting by including mention of this cloak. Their purpose for meeting was to be of such depth that it would have the authority of the man of God behind it, and that his ministry was NOT dead, in spite of the loss of the mystery revelation in most of the church. The epistle started with Timothy being told not to be ashamed of Paul’s ministry. Now he’s being told the same thing, only in the positive sense: That their meeting was to have God’s stamp of approval on it. By studying to rightly divide the Word, one obtains God’s approval and needs never be ashamed. It’s no wonder Timothy is told to study in verse 2:15, and then to build his expectations for that meeting, because they were REALLY going to do some right dividing of the Word there. Now, for an unexpected plot twist in this detective mystery. Verse 4:13 in the Aramaic text does NOT have the word “cloak” at all, but instead a word translated “book carrier,” and literally is “book house.” This would be a bag or case used for transporting, in his missionary travels, the most necessary books in Paul’s library. In other words, the Aramaic indicates that there was already some work done in this field of collecting and compiling criticality important writings EVEN BEFORE Paul, Timothy, Mark and Luke were to meet. So the Greek and the Aramaic, although differing on this one word, both supply interesting possibilities in understanding the gist of that first century meeting. Both of these indications point in the same direction: that God’s men were working on collecting God’s Word well before the canonization process took p1ace. There’s even a further possibility that BOTH the Greek and Aramaic are correct, and BOTH Paul’s cloak of authority and Paul’s book bag collection were indicated in the original text. In the East, oftentimes huge pockets are found in clothing for the purposes of carrying and transporting objects. If Paul carried his books in these pockets or pouches, then the discrepancy in the Greek and Aramaic may only be due to each language emphasizing different aspects of the same garment. */*/*/*/* An authoritative pre-assembly of many of the books of the New Testament probably took place at or around that meeting in the first century. This would explain why the seven church epistles are always found in the exact same order no matter how old the manuscripts. Their invariant order indicates their assembling together at a very early date; earlier than the oldest known manuscripts. Since these epistles are specifically addressed to us as church member of the Body of Christ, AND since they serve as our springboard to understanding all the other portions of the Bible addressed to other people, careful attention is demanded. Knowledge of the origins of these epistles is most vital to us. As for the final compilation of the other books of the Bible, including the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation of John, we can rest assured that God watched over that process in the same manner we’ve noticed throughout this essay: That God instructed His men as to how to put the Word together, the SAME men He had to write it. Besides the scriptures we’ve considered thus far, there are many more clues that fit into the whole story. You might want to look up Romans 16:26, Colossians 4:16, I Thessalonians 5:27, II Thessalonians 2: 2, I Timothy 4:13 , Hebrews 2:1, Revelation 22:18,19. These will add to the impact of going through through II Timothy in light of its twofold context described here. It is a thrilling thing to see the broad hints God puts in His written Word to assure us that we have the real McCoy, and not a product of the will of man, or an accident of history. God stands behind His word and it “liveth and abideth forever.” He knew what He was doing when He gave gift ministries to men, to carry out this work. We can be extremely thankful that God chose the men He did to teach His Word. For the authoritative assembling of the books of the Bible, we don’t have to look to ancient historical artifacts, or canonization committees hundreds of years after the apostles, or to the traditions of highly organized religion. We look to the men of God He has placed in our midst for that kind of information (Ephesians 4:l2). We should never be overly concerned with the details of how the Bible was assembled, if that concern grows into doubt and interferes with our living the Word. We've got to get real sharp on trusting God, and not leaning on our own understanding, but leaning totally on the accuracy and integrity of His Word. We can, however, become intimately aware of the processes by which God breathed His written Word, as we walk in the spirit and learn to talk with our heavenly Father for advice in how to help people. And we can see the preservation mechanisms God used to protect His Word as we first endeavor to uphold the integrity of His Word in our own lives. The End

There are some things that I am sure of, and I will not budge on them. At least I tell you what they are. If you think progress with me is me backing off from my certainty with these issues, you are mistaken. You will not see that kind of progress. There are many things I am not sure of, and we can discuss them better. Maybe YOU will learn from me. If you think you can't, then that is the filter you use to see me, and all you can see is my certainty, and then interpret it as ego. */*/*/*/*/* In the meantime, instead of talking about me, and my teacher, let's get back to the canon. We talked about the Top-Down approach for a while, now it's time for the Bottom-Up approach. */*/*/*/*/*/* It’s here! It’s here! The last installment to my 1970s paper is here. Did you see those two installments of text on Timothy? They can be found way back on page 8. Here they are on page 8: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25333-new-testament-canon/page/8/ 1st installment – page 8 @ 30% mark, 23 hours ago, Sat 10-15-22 ~ 9:00 am Pacific Time 2nd installment – page 8 @ 55% mark, 22 hours ago, Sat 10-15-22 ~ 10 am Pacific Time */*/*/*/*/*/* The third and LAST installment is below. It picks up where the long “a” list and the long “b” list left off. Those two lists made up the abababababa structure of 2 Timothy I’ve talked about.

Best I can remember, that importance was more in the minds of us students. That data, in itself, was not so important. I get the impression that you, like many others, missed understanding in PFAL what was meant by the Gospel of John handling TIME in a manner different than the other Gospels. I had a very difficult time explaining that TIME point in twig teachings or witnessing for years, but finally got it down. Does your re-analysis (with differing Postulates) revolve around the Gospel of John?

My 1972 impression of the history approaching 425 AD was war-like at times, with competing schools of thought. The devil/Satan had lots of chances of sneaking in counterfeit books, and snuffing out genuine ones. We know that happened at the verse level INSIDE the writings; it's only logical the devil/Satan would exploit the opportunities (bloody fighting, for instance) OUTSIDE the writings in the gradual recognition of the final canon. The corruptions I see that entered the text, and for 4 centuries entered into the clarity of the apostles original canon, are surgical and few, and among random noise glitches. But I see the VITAL topics, like how Christians can effectively take the place of the absent Christ, how we are more than conquerors, that we are sealed with seed spirit, never to lose it, and the lifelong opportunity to get back in fellowship and work with God and accumulate eternal rewards…. and many more things of the Mystery like that…. were HIGH STAKES targets of the devil/Satan. There were other obfuscation techniques available (language evolution and death, Orientalisms, organized religion, etc) but text corruption for many centuries, and canon corruption for 4 centuries, were two of the biggies.

Bruce and Metzger are new to me. Maybe I read the wrong canon historians back in 1972. All I know is that I had lots of doubts about the Divine inspiration as I read them. When I turned to read what Paul and the others had to say about writing and distributing freshly written scriptures I was encouraged.