Mike
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I think VPW made a lot of human mistakes and I know for sure he sinned. The First Epistle of John tells me he sinned, and Romans 7 tells me he sinned. I was never of the opinion that he was a saint in the Roman Catholic sense. I knew that was phony baloney. I saw oodles of grads who exuded the attitude of great worship toward VPW, and that they felt his only sin could be tiny fibs and maybe stealing nickel candy bars at the dime store; small stuff. But that’s not the way life works. When someone is in his kind of position, the adversary brings out his most subtle of temptations, counterfeited to appear like tough love from the Father. Before my first year in the Word was over I heard VPW live at Rock’72 say that he was no goodie-goodie. But that didn’t deter many of his worshipers from thinking he only had a few candy bar wrappers in his closet. */*/*/*/* In 1977 I heard VPW admit before 100 witnesses that the whole PFAL’77 project to replace PFAL'68 was not of God. He seemed very embarrassed and angry at himself for getting talked into the project, and hadn’t properly consulted God, and that this human mistake was in the sin category. My best understanding of VPW’s legacy is that the production of the printed collaterals was constantly being fine-tuned, and in alignment with God. I also think the WoW Program had some excellent points. But when it comes to the Way Corps and VPW’s handling of upper leadership as the ministry grew mega, I think he made LOTS of human errors and this was an area where he was tempted the most to sin. I know many Way Corps graduates who are fine people, and they seem to have filtered out a lot of the errors that crept into the Corps program. But there were also a lot of Corps Nazi types that came out of that program, and I saw little action from the good ones against the bad ones. Some of the worst characters I ever had to work with came from that tattered program. */*/*/*/*/* VPW was fully up front and honest about his hooky-pook research and how he got good stuff from the occult. OldSkool, you got it right a long time ago, as I see you wrote above: “So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult.” I fully believe that old opinion of yours OldSkool, and would ADD to it that over the centuries the adversary would plant bad ideas into Christianity to weaken it. So the adversary stole good info from Christians, and replaced it with bad. Then he gave his groups the good info to use and gain advantage. */*/*/*/* Again, in my first year in the Word, I had a personal conversation with VPW about one particular occult movement from which he got some good information. I have tried to talk to GSC folks about this for some time. Finally, a thread appeared about it a few months ago. At Rock’72 I brought a book with me. It was a hooky-pook book that I was into and had been fascinated by titled “In Search of the Miraculous” by P.D. Ouspensky and it was about the famous guru, George Ivanovich Gurdjieff. I was deeply into these two guys, and my college roommate was also. They are a secretive group, so it took me a long time to find them. I was commuting to job in NYC at the time as a traveling repairman for Western Union. It gave me freedom to search all kinds of obscure and occult bookstores. By asking the right people the right questions I finally found the secret Gurdjieff group. My roommate, who lived in NYC, immediately joined the group. Meanwhile, out on Long Island where I lived, 3 hippie chicks were witnessing to me about the PFAL class. Today my roommate is still with them. He says he got to know comedian Bill Murry who is also a member. Many famous people over the decades have revealed that they follow Gurdjieff, Ouspenski or a few others connected with them. It is similar to how Tom Cruise is a champion for Scientology, except that Gurdjieff and Ouspenski had a head start 100 years ago, have many more members, and are secretive and hardly known at all, outside academics and intelligencia. I heard about them from Baba Ram Dass. Gurdjieff was notorious for his rough tactics. I see this as his counterfeit for how tough Jesus was at times with the Pharasees, and even with his apostles. Gurdjief was all about his Corps program and classes and dicipline. He was always trying to filter people OUT of the program with his tough tactics, called “shocks.” He figured the ones who could handle it were the only ones he wanted to work with. Again, this is like a counterfeit of how Jesus was tough. Gurdjieff had a reputation of being TOO rough, and going overboard at times with it. I think VPW got some good from Gurdjieff, but some of the bad also snuck in there. When I first got into the Word, I immediately spotted the Gurdjieff influences in VPW, and that told me to be cautious about him. I was also alarmed at how many people were worshiping VPW. I suspect many here at GreaseSpot were in that category, and were extra embittered by the revelations after 1986 that he REALLY was not a goodie-goodie. I too was disappointed, and somewhat embittered. But because I did not have years of VPW worship under my belt to drive me crazy, and I got over it. I learned to separate the good from TWI and PFAL from the bad. It took a few years, between 1986 and 1998 to do this. I did not commit to the collaterals until 1998. So, for any real self-deprogramming of the rotten parts of the Corps program where VPW went too far with "Gurdjieffian shocks," it might be good to find the original sources of said corruptions. So, I knew VPW had a lot of Gurdjieff going in his ministry when I first took the class. It was for that reason I took the book with me I mentioned above to the Rock 1972. When I showed VPW the book he said without hesitation “Oh! I read that book! That is a pretty good counterfeit, isn’t it?” I smiled and nodded in agreement, and felt ready to go to my next item to question him on. */*/*/*/*/* I think you folks should forget about finding flaws in the collaterals, and focus on all the techniques (and shocks) used in Way Corps training for being either imbalanced restorations of things stolen from Christianity centuries ago, versus being right-on, balanced restorations of Biblical principles. In April of this year someone finally discovered Gurdjieff here and started a thread on him. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25206-george-ivanovich-gurdjieff-a-cult-leader/ Since I was never in the Corps, I will avidly watch (and not comment much) to see if anyone works this angle.
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Well, this has de-railed into a discussion about me and not the topic.... AGAIN. I suggest you folks take a Physics 101 course on-line. There are lots of TOP universities offering them free now. I got some good boilerplate when we were talking physics and airplanes and brains. But then you all had to bring in VPW and then shift the topic to me and my lowly defects. I prefer the physics discussion. Have any of you ever taken a Physics 101 course at the university level? ...at the High School level?
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It is the LACK of vacuum, and higher air pressure on the underside of the wing that provides the force. Air vacuums can exert no forces; only air pressure can do that.
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It never affects the laws of physics. Patterns of determinism can be altered with other patterns of determinism. It's the same thing as the lift force of an airplane altering the net force on the plane by opposing the gravity force.
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yes.
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NO. It is intimately related to the laws of physics, though. This is highly figurative language: The agency that enforces the Law of Physics can be thought of as determinism. Another way of putting it is: The Laws of Physics (plus initial conditions) actually DETERMINE what will happen next. Another: Determinism is the belief that the inanimate objects in the universe NEVER act in a capricious or disobedient way. (disobedient to the laws) Nature is never lazy or frivolous. Determinism means the physical universe is predictable if you know the laws and the initial conditions.
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I do not know.
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People can abuse science into a religion, by thinking that science can explain everything. It can explain a lot, but when people look to it to totally explain God as merely a human brain artifact, THEN it becomes the religion people are calling scientism.
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Everything technological alters determinism patterns with other determinism patterns.
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We are talking about the human decision process, and in my thinking the spiritual laws are not involved with this process for natural man because there is no spirit in there. I don't know much about the spiritual laws, but I can see what the Word says. Newton was a theologian by profession, and Physics was his hobby. The great success he had was in going against the grain of his times, and keeping his analysis of spiritual laws SEPARATE from the natural laws. The spiritual laws, in Newton's mind, were addressed to humans, and the natural laws were addressed to inanimate objects. To Newton, I suppose the 10 commandments would be these kind of spiritual laws. His most useful physical law is F=ma, or Force equals the mass of an object times its acceleration. I like this dichotomy of Newton's because it works pretty well. The spiritual laws that would address INanimate objects Newton had no idea of, and neither do I. The biggest application of these less known spiritual laws OVERCOMING natural laws is seen in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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We can be a part of that determined outcome. We can contribute to the NET force, by our prayers, actions, and believing with God. It's not like determinism is un-alterable. We can influence the determinism with free will, minFW that is.
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Since you said so, I guess I am stuck, as is science stuck, in perpetuating a lie. PLEASE PRAY for me and and for science that we can be enlightened.
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I just hinted to you the best answer I know.
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Mark 11 22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
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I'm stumbling over my words a little. I'll try to get more precise. What is most important to the airplane is the NET force, and that force can be zero (vertically). It is zero when the two forces are equal and opposite. When this happens, the airplane appears to not have a force of gravity working on it. It is in THIS way the gravity is figuratively "overcome."
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No. It is the NET force that acts on the airplane, and when the Bernoulli force is equal and opposite the gravitational force, the net sum is zero force acting on the plane, and it can stay at one altitude. If there is no up/down motion of the plane, then there is no net vertical force acting on the plane. Force is a vector in Physics and force vectors get cancelled all the time by other forces. Force is not conserved, like energy and momentum. It can be cancelled. or overcome.
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Because lots of people get their brain broken in various ways, and the processes involved in making decisions can go very dysfunctional. If Neuroscience can understand better how the electro-chemical pathways in the brain function, Medicine can help heal some of these brain damage victims.
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I agree. The airplane does not overcome the LAW of gravity. The Bernoulli FORCE overcomes the FORCE of gravity. That is the correct tech talk for this. The force of gravity is a PATTERN of the law of gravity. The Bernoulli force is a PATTERN of moving air molecules.
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No. The Bible gives us some hints, but they are beyond any scientific investigation.
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Yes! God's foreknowledge seriously complicates this already tough nut to crack. Fortunately, Neuroscience and Medicine will not be able to incorporate this foreknowledge complication. There is nothing in science that can handle the idea of foreknowledge. Even the devil, the former steward of the Laws of Physics, has no handle on foreknowledge.
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You are correct. I said it was only analogous.
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Roger Penrose tries the approach you suggested, and I did too for many years. It just did not go anywhere. I gave up on that approach.
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Determinism is tied to the Laws of Physics. These Laws actually DETERMINE what happens in the physical world. When the spiritual world interacts with the physical world a WHOLE NEW SET of laws, spiritual laws, come into play. This is analogous to how the law of aerodynamics (Bernoulli) can overpower the law of gravity, so airplanes can fly.
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Right. The game is busted, so we dump it. We change the rules. That happens every now and then when a tough nut like fatalism refuses to crack. Do you have a better solution? If you do it will win you much fame and fortune, because this fatalism has plagued the debate for centuries.
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Some call that fatalism in the context of this debate. It's one of the reasons this is such a hot debate. Determinism and the old, classically defined free will are opposites and you can't have both of them, if you want to avoid fatalism. For many years I thought the only way out was to have determinism modified, but it is too tough, and too heavily backed by science. So, 9 years ago I changed my approach, and modified the definition of free will a little.
