Mike

So it's not even culty?

So, the GreaseSpot religion is a pure religion, because you said so.

This video from Kati Morton is very accurate and useful. I think I agree with more than 90 percent of it, on first listening. I hope that shocks some here, because I know some don’t have a clue where my heart is on many matters, due to the cloud of mocking engaged in. The only thing I would disagree strongly with this video on is not the text, but the attitude I pick up from it. I could be wrong, but this is what I pick up. That attitude is that it is impossible to get in the fast lane with God and operate like the right-on First Century believers did. That attitude is that the Word should be only a mild influence in our lives, and not relied on to really support us in a strong, right-on spiritual adventure. Such reliance will lead to doom only is the message I pick up. That attitude is that ALL attempts to do things like “all nine all the time” are doomed to abusive and wasteful counterfeits. */*/*/* I say this because the strength of cult domination is a counterfeit of the family and adventures the First Century believers had and experienced. A cult is a counterfeit of something spiritually good and genuine, and that is why cults have strong spiritual powers to hurt God’s people. A counterfeit implies a genuine. What that means is the devil exploits strong natural human dynamics and mechanics with cults. A cult (in that word’s most current usage) is a perversion of something good, pure, and strongly beneficial that God installed in our Biology. The attitude I get from this video is that there is no “genuine” that the cult-religion is a counterfeit of. The phenomenon of cults just popped up all on its own, in this attitude and perspective. Some genetics scientists are thinking that, instead of cults being the wrong side of a coin, that the cult-religion is a flaw in our DNA, or an anachronistic trait that should be evolved away from. (please pardon my amateur wording) When the cult-thing first hit the news in the early 70s I watched intensely as the word “cult” evolved. I actually met a troupe of the Children of God cult in 1971 living deep in the woods, just months before my first twig. They were in the news bigtime, so I was wary of them, after two discussions. Months later, in my first twig I was wary, as well. I watched for red flags. I had ALMOST joined the Gurdjieff cult a year before, and my roommate did join it, so I had some knowledge of what was going on. As the 70s progressed I saw no red flags in TWI, so I stayed and I learned the Word. But when I went to HQ in the late 70s a few popped up. In the early 80s more popped up, and they were Corps related. So my whole time in the Word I have watched the cult-thing grow and change some. The attitudes I described above in text form, and that I seemed to pick up in Kati Morton (or project on her), were loaded with obvious hints in their progression toward discrediting the genuine “cult” Jesus had going. I am sure many more come out in the open in more recent years in discrediting, by cult association, God’s genuine family dynamic. I pay less attention to cult news these days. But back then I was keenly interested in seeing how Jesus and his little "cult" of 12 Corps and 500 minions, would escape Modern Psychology’s cult detection skills, as those skills evolved over the decades. MAYBE I am projecting onto Kati Morton, the attitudes of hundreds of authors of newspaper and internet articles on this topic I’ve read over the decades. They told me with text what their positions on things were, and I could detect the direction they were headed as I describe above. But it was more from Kati Morton’s voice that I was sensing this in video. I could be wrong about her, but I think am right about the other stuff. */*/*/* I hope some here are confused or amazed that I would agree with most of this video and think it was informative. You should be flummoxed, some of you, because I know you don’t know me. I can tell by what you say my position is on tens of issues. You folks are too busy wit mocking and misrepresenting me to hear me well. It might be fun seeing how far off your guesses are about what I agree with and don’t agree with.

That depends on what you mean by "enforced." Mocking and jeering and mis-representation can be STRONG enforcement tools. I was under the impression that you were using them on me in hopes of getting me to line up or leave, JUST AS this video depicts. Did I read you wrong? Is this really a pure operation, where everyone (but me) is of pure hearts and can do no wrong? Does being an Expose Operation grant immunity to someone using the methods cults and religions use to dominate people and conversations? If so, I'd like to see your full explanation of it. You may call a friend.

T-Bone are you listening? The GreaseSpot religion is not immune to abusive shaming to enforce conformity.

Hi johniam. It's nice to see you again. The "one bad decision away from homelessness" guy you mentioned sounds like the same guy that Twinky started a thread on last month titled "Anonymous mischief." The thread is at https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25361-anonymous-mischief/ and the link to the guy is: https://onebaddecisionawayfromhomelessness.wordpress.com/tag/greasespot-cafe/ If that is not the same link you mentioned, could you post your link? */*/*/* I liked your historical timeline analysis, and put a copy in my folder labeled "An Unvarnished History of TWI" for future use. You nailed it on the LCM related cheerfulness drain. He was assisted by many imitators in the Corps he trained, especially the Reverend wannabees, and/or the ones who wanted to shed their lowly "day jobs" and get on TWI payroll. I saw this first hand in the window cleaners breakfasts we would have at Denny's. Many of the Corps window cleaners were obviously not into the work with any passion to do it right and for the Lord. I even hired one, and then regretted it deeply; worst worker I had to deal with. None of them were cheerful about the work. This was 1983 and the few years after it, before the meltdown in 1986.

boop beep bop - beep bob beep boop rrriiiiiiingg rrriiiiiingg <click> Hello, is this… the Topic Police? Oh good, you’re hard to find. Um, I want to report a derailed thread. Yes, the topic was lost about 20 hours ago. No, no discussion of it since then. It’s really bad! Someone should come here to see it. What? No, not me. I didn’t do anything. In fact, I left the thread just to help it get back on topic NO! I did NOT derail it, and then run! I’m just reporting it. Or trying to. No, I didn’t mean any disrespect there. What did you say? Are they what? Oh… no. Just the opposite. They seem real happy about their posting. No, I must not be saying it right, then. The topic is seriously derailed. Don’t you care about that? But… But what does them being happy have to do with it? Oh! No, I don’t see anyone rocking the boat there. But what does that have to do with derailing? Oh! You mean rocking the boat is a greater offence? But I thought….. But they said…. Oh, ok. If that’s what your orders are. I’m a little surprised, but … Who me? Oh.. um… Well I guess I do rock the boat some, but… But we actually agree on LOTS of things. Ok, I get it. As long as they are happy… But it’s been like 20 hours since the topic came up. Yikes! The derailing charge is only what? Ohhhhh. You mean just to get rid of boat rockers? Now it all makes sense! What about trolls? LoLoLoL So everybody is a derailer with that way of looking at it! Oh, so the important thing is they be happy, and… So what about free speech? No, officer… I’m not trying to tell you how to do your job. You mean… “free speech” is BS ? Ok, I get it. They only want to be happy. I thought they wanted to discuss truths…. Right. Definitely no laughs in some truths. What if I rock the boat “creatively” ??? Ok, have a nice day. <click>

Ok. I will consider that. :)

I am ready to STOP responding on this thread, especially to every nit and nat against me personally. I think I have posted all the important things I wanted to on this topic. Please continue without me. Bye.

I show my teeth AFTER you show yours. Look in a mirror sometime.

You read me wrong. I am trying to wrap up my posts on this thread to leave for other projects. Stop responding to every nit and nat you don't like from me, and you will help me leave this thread.

Please remember that people can change AND that there is a whole new generation taking over TWI. People can be genuine, but with the huge pileup of issues they have to deal with, I am satisfied with going slow, and working on the easy topics first. I am EXTREMELY interested in the "Just the way it was” item you mentioned, and is it a tape or a written document. I will ask around about it, and it would be great if anyone here comes across it. To whom was it passed out to? Clergy only, Corps only? Is that the exact title of the item or a paraphrase? I think getting a hold of that would help a lot with future communications. I agreed with someone else yesterday, that an honest unvarnished history of TWI should be produced by them, but that is going to be difficult. Their lawyers may even forbid it for tort protection. I am talking to a few non-leadership intellectuals in TWI about these things, and they agree a history with lots of love, but no whitewashing is needed. I am thinking of something like the way Luke did Acts of the apostles was not a whitewash, but an honest, unvarnished history of the important issues. We are thinking that non-official, non-payrolled TWI "members" will have to do it outside the ministry's official recognition, but with their discreet understanding and off the record approval and assistance. Then distribution would have to be privately handled.

Read my reasons why in my long post to So_crates, above. I am not stupid and they are not love bombing me. They listen to the issues I bring up, and sometimes disagree with me. Because we have many common goals and beliefs, we both respect each others' rights to differ. Example: I would toss out phrases like "the ministry meltdown" referring to 1986, and I could see a few flinch and object to my impressions of what happened then. I respect this objection and ask them why they feel that way. I tell them why I feel it was a meltdown. Then we continue our respectful conversation (not debate) and we both discover that my old "marble cake model" of the ministry applies here. Some areas did indeed melt down and some did not. Some were isolated from the mess, and continued to minister to new people. Many were not so isolated (like my area) and things went haywire. Now when I sparingly use the phrase "ministry meltdown" they understand and don't flinch or object. They understand my position, and I understand theirs.

I mentioned in my very long to Socrates several hours ago to So_crates that I will answer all those questions after I write up a report that is readable by HQ people.

Honest interactions with me can be rare here because so many of the active posters want me to either conform to their anti-idol religion/cult and stop bringing up my opinions and the facts i have gathered, or be banned. You preach the value of open minds, but then close them when you encounter stiff competition. THAT is the reason you cannot contain yourself and MUST post a storm against me. Your activity around me REEKS of Way Corps nasty attitudes and actions. You jumped out of one vpw-idol cult (Corps) only to work hard on an anti-idol cult forming here. I am a fly in your cult ointment here. I voluntarily leave most threads alone. I have tried to back off this one for 2 days now, but people like YOU keep trying to get another round of boxing going. You are SO reeking of Way Corps tactics!!! Take a look in the mirror sometime, you, who cannot be corrupted. So, now you want to seek a ban on me! Just another cult tactic of eliminating any doctrinal opposition. You should ban yourself from responding to me but your emotions prevent it. There is NOTHING you can say to me that you and/or many others have already said. Get some new material to criticize me with, or get a life! You should take some wise advice from Gamaliel towards me. Even Rush Limbaugh had something pertinent to say on this. He used to say, somewhat jokingly (but with a strong serious streak) that if he were King, he'd ban all the Liberal professors from publicly funded Universities, EXCEPT for one or two in each location. He made that exception, because he thought they should be kept in sight, so that their musings could be monitored and effectively challenged.

Me distracting ????? There is not a single post from me here that forces you to read it. You have a PgDn key on your keyboard for that. Just ignore my posts if you find them distracting. Take some advice from Rocky.

What I post here about my private life and actions is public. I have the right to not reveal anything about it, and keep it private.

What I do about this is none of your business. You should be ashamed for thinking you can see into my life. You have no idea what you are talking about and exhibiting all the ugliness that TWI had at one time. You are preserving it by embodying it yourself. You are becoming what you look at most intensely: the mind-control goons. You are damaging yourself with your pompous "I have repented but YOU, Mike, are a lowly sinner!" When are you going to get it? I am not under your control. I am responsible to God, not to you, oh little one. I would love to see you wilt in a big university setting with the Lefties who would shame you for being a willing beneficiary of all the evil from Columbus on down to the Conquistadors. This happens every Columbus day now on lots of campuses. Old white men are being shamed, sometimes physically threatened, if they do not hate and condemn Columbus. It is a little bit similar to your puny attempts to shame me for not hating and condemning VPW. The difference, though is they are WAY BETTER at it than you! I have seen this with my own eyes. I have been on the receiving end of Columbus shaming. You are an amateur at it, even with your Corps disciplining flashbacks with me. So back off, buddy! I do not answer to pukes like you.

Oh, I have done that. Right now I am turning suspiciousness AWAY from them, after some 30+ years of high suspiciousness towards them. It is important to remember that a little more than one whole generation has passed since the POP. A new generation of people are involved, especially at the local levels. I am lightening up on my suspicions, a few are still there, but not like a generation ago. I have reported this here for a couple of years here at GSC. It started 4 years ago when I noticed a difference in local leadership. It really started longer ago with my dance hobby. I go to bars where good old music is played, often on Monday to Thursday nights. The trashy music is usually for weekends in order to appeal to the bulky the crowds, usually young people. But LOTS of good retired musicians just want a place to play loud, and I go there to dance to blues rock and Grateful Dead music. Allman Brothers and danceable Bob Dylan songs enter the mix often. These are Open Mic scenes for bands and musicians. It's a networking hub for them. There are a half dozen of these places here. About 7 or 8 years ago, one of these great eclectic musicians said "HI Mike! Fancy meeting you here!" He was unrecognizable behind his long whiskers everywhere. His voice was unmistakably that of an old TWI friend I hadn’t seen in 25 years, and who was still in TWI after all these years. I ran the A.V. for his first class in 1982. We had reluctantly parted ways around 1996-7 when Craig was in his saddest mode. I could immediately sense the melted ice in my friend. We started comparing notes intensely. It was a great reunion! Since then I have watched him do his music and network with a hundred other musicians over the past 7 years or so. Around 4 years ago his occasional reports of twig activity got more and more interesting. I sensed a change in attitudes of leadership thru him. I wanted to see this firsthand so I went to ONE large local fellowship very far away from my home. There, I met the local twig leader, but his twig was still a little too far for me. But I sensed directly the change in attitudes from the previous TWI people I had encountered by phone or in person over the previous decades. I made plans to lightly attend the local fellowship, but then the Pandemic happened. Now I've been to several meetings and had good times. Because I have the exact opposite attitude most of you folks have toward the baby and bathwater issue, they are not opposed to talking turkey at times, when no new people around. I can tell these people love the Word and study it, so that is the main topic we all want to discuss. With some of them it can get very deep and beneficial. I remember that I am not perfect, and we all have our own flaws, and our own background twists in perspective. It is a happy scene, but not religiously frequent. I sometimes go dancing instead of an available fellowship. I remember how Priscilla and Aquila were polite with Apollos, and I try to follow that example. It is called agape. In return I got ZERO PRESSURE from them to take the class. This was not incidental. They specifically would say they did not want to pressure me. It was my idea to take it, fully. There has been zero pressure for tithing. Not one word. I’ve brought tithing up once or twice, but jokingly, and briefly. My plan is to not tithe, but at the same time I will not discourage anyone else from doing that. I have much better places for my giving than that, at the moment. Besides, I have been a free publicity agent for their main product ever since I left circa 1988, in my PFAL promotion. That can count as a tithe. Plus, I am willing to donate my future services to them, as an outside consultant. I enjoyed the new PFAL-T class, and I am compiling my thoughts and notes on it, first for TWI people, and then for you folks if you are interested. I don’t want to clutter my mind with discussions here on PFAL-T, until I finish my compilation and then write HQ about it. I have some detailed good points, and some easy suggestions for improvement, like simple announcements for the class co-ordinators handbook. Nutshell for now: I liked it. It can be a good primer for young people, which is their goal.

It has been a long day. A window cleaner holiday; rain. Maybe tomorrow I can work.

Yes, that can be a problem.

THAT response from you is why I don't like your childish idiocy. I gave you the abbreviated version because I know you can read omnipotence and omniscience in where I described God's actions, if you want to. I can see you only want to give me a difficult time. But hey, I get some good boilerplate for others from my response to you. You must fill in the gaps of my abbreviated response It might be good for you.

Actually, I totally agree with you on this, and I have said so lovingly to local leadership. They understood and could see my point. They said they would pass my objection on to their friends at HQ, which includes Vern Edwards. I am currently lightly corresponding with him, and will mention this someday. I am calling this the Green Card Guarantee, and will make sure it is heard. Hopefully, some WayGB are reading this now. (Howdy folks!) I think it is not so much the money, but more a mild case of insularity induced stupidity. I will be standing up to this problem. There are other such issues that I have been collecting in a folder. */*/*/* On your second point, I will be pressing them for a full airing on the history of the John Scheonheit paper on adultery. I have to go slower with them on this. With some of them I have already started that dialog. There are a couple of them who know that if they don't write up a better than a white-washed history of TWI and VPW, then GreaseSpot will be the final writer of this history. I tell them that Luke did this for the good and the bad that happened in Acts, and that they better get on it and come up with an unvarnished history to publish. Luke told itall about Paul's big mistake, about Barnabas (a super GOOD guy) losing it, others blowing it bad, and Peter's ups and downs. This kind of thing is necessary for a fellowship ministry, but TWI is ALSO a marketing corporation. Corporate advertising is always white-washed an varnished, so this will be difficult for them.

I have heard personally from some of the witnesses starting in July 1987. Some I have read here. In my personal set of friends over the years, I know far more who witnessed VPW doing good, and found much good in his teachings. Evidence is to be weighed. I don't throw out any, but I weigh it in various ways. Go through the grads on Facebook and ask them what THEY witnessed. Your sample size of witnesses is too small.