Mike

Yes, to the website. I was at a large local TWI meeting for the 80th Anniversary video live-feed last October. They had all these people on stage, but most who were in charge were new names to me. I think I got a photo of some of them in the mail as their follow-up on my taking the PFAL-T class. Still, no real info on who is who. Donna was not on stage, I don't think. But I hear Donna's sister was? The only one in the new administration I recognized on the video was Joe Coulter, but I rarely spoke to him when I was at HQ. He worked on the farm, and I worked in the town of New Knoxville.

Yes, that bothers me also. Worse, if LCM is on it, still. These are major items when considering where my giving should go.

You wrote: Yes so we can divide your life into dispensations then judge you by the dispensation. I suppose you could, but you could only do it well, if you had the right inside info on the timing of the most influential situations in my life. LoL I’m not so sure I have all that info. My dividing TWI into administrations is for the shorthand notation as a time saver, and also it is for assisting me in learning patterns that characterize each different administration. But in no way am I implying that individuals here had their lives molded to the same templates as TWI administrations. */*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/* You wrote: It paints the Two historical and preceding wineskins (OW-2 and OW-3) as the problem. Not in my mind. I am still sorting out what the problem(S) were, and I know that some of them came from TWI-1. The majority opinion among the active posters is that there was only ONE problem and that it was totally located in the pure evil anti-idol that VPW is depicted here often, and in every way. I don’t entertain such a childish, and even cartoonish viewpoint. I think he contributed to some of the problems. But to lay everything on him means that all the other means the devil used are shoved under the rug. The adversary used many methods simultaneously and for years to bring the ministry into a meltdown in 1986, and continued to pummel it for years afterwards. I intend to not let those other things slide under the rug with a simplistic model of all-encompassing and pure evil VPW. */*/*/*/*/*/* You wrote: It also is tremendously naïve and labels the latest OW-4 by the current president who does not weild the power. Two other positions there do. John Rupp. Chairman of the Board. Bill Greene. And the Emeritus couple Rosalie Rivenbark and Donna (what does she use as a last name now?) Thank you. This is valuable information. I have been learning this slowly in small elements. I want to know these things so I know to whom I should write and phone. I have noticed for decades that anyone connected with TWI that I have been in contact with will shrink in fear from me if I start talking about the “difficult subjects.” One of the things they seem to be afraid of is that I might overwhelm them with my knowledge of ministry historical details or theological details, or that I might have a devil spirit and trick them. The other fear they have is that they don’t have the authority to speak for the ministry, and should let someone else more qualified do it. They even have sounded like they were “acting under orders” to not get involved with anyone who has left the ministry. This was largely absent in recent years as I have gotten to know some smart leaders on the field. But that is not so much the case with HQ... yet. I calling the switchboard 6 months ago, I sensed the same old fears with the operators. So, I need to save myself time in trying to contact and get to know more about the upper management there. I need to know who is smart enough, and in authority enough to not have the fears I just mentioned, and able to handle detailed text from me and/or a detailed phone call. */*/*/*/*/*/* I find this alarming, that Rosalie and Donna may be shadow top leaders. Why not be out in the open about it. My working this topic tells me that a genuine ministry is a 5-senses extension of a gift ministry given to a member of the Body of Christ. NEVER does God give a gift ministry to a legal 5-senses corporation. But this is what “the ministry” came to mean, even in TWI-1. But at least with TWI-1 and -2 it was pretty obvious from whom and from whose gift ministry the legal 5-senses corporation was an extension. But from whose gift ministry is TWI-3 an extension? Rosalie? Does she have a gift ministry? I know for sure she was a diligent worker, and that figures into the Biblical “helps and governments” the best I understand. But that isn’t a gift ministry. Has anyone looked in her wake, prior to 1986 to see massive blessings she gifted to individuals? If anyone did I did not hear about it. Not saying there was none; I just don’t know. Now, in TWI-4, I need to know from whose gift ministry is the corporation now based and an extension from? This not being able to pin down exactly who is who and does what in the new TWI-4 is driving me to find out the details are within the corporation. I will be seeking answers here. Compounding all murkiness in getting an I.D. on who is in charge is a recent discovery (to me) of a whole set of Position Papers for TWI-3 and -4. At the start of this thread there was posted one such Position Paper, and then I later found dozens more, dating back to 2013. I had no idea these existed !!! They are each somewhat qualified to be called ONE HALF of an E.C.N. (Engineering Change Notices). So this set of “½ ECNs” was good dt see, that TWI commits itself to a set of Position Papers. BTW, that is my name for them. They simply call them “articles.” */*/*/*/* But now, back to the distressing murkiness of “who is in charge?” It was pointed out by one poster on this thread (can’t find it now) that none of the Position Papers are signed or designated to an author. Who came up with them? Who signed them off? It seems murky, and I wonder why.

Just to help me sort things out, could you tell us what years you were in TWI? One reason I ask is because I did hear about those things in the 1970s with TWI-1. TWI-2 = (Craig) started slow at 1982, but was fully functioning by 1985. TWI-3 = (Rosalie) started around 2000. TWI-4 = (Vern Edwards) started about 4 or 5 years ago.

GP = Great Principle, the topic of this thread.

I have thought long and hard on that, and that's the reason I try to stay one one thread only. That was totally blown over the holidays, but I am trying to get back to a minimal footprint here, by retreating to the Jumping thread. But I also think that the flow of traumatized people has gone way down after the LCM mess was cleaned up. After 2002 they were humbled by the court and were doing a lot of re-grouping. I think they started traumatizing a far smaller number of people. That translates to a cut in the flow of hurt refugees here. Now with TWI-4 only a few years old, they are poised to solve a lot of the internal problems the past TWI administrations foisted upon them. If I am right, and they have a change of heart and words and activities at HQ like what I saw locally, then the flow of victims here should go way down. We shall see.

You are jumping to concussions!!! I'm not running, just getting myself translated like a bishop, over to the "Jumping to Concussions" thread. */*/*/* And, no I'm not afraid of change, having done it a lot. ONE of the reasons I can't take you folks seriously is because I know for sure you can't offer me a viable paradigm, a set of Postulates, that come close to the valuable paradigm I have enjoyed partially from 1971 to 1998, and then fully since then. No one here can offer a system of thought, a viable rule for faith and practice that even comes close to what I get from the collaterals. It is laughable that any of you could think I would value the fumbling theology of anti-PFAL that drives you. You got a lot of bad news but no Good News to offer me. Picture me to be a dog, happy and satisfied with an old smelly, rotten bone, with maggots crawling on it. You want to take it away from me, but it's the only thing I have to gnaw on. How dare you try to take it away from me! All you'll get from me is a fight if you get too close to taking it away. But then picture my reaction (I'm still a dog) if you bring to me a warm, fresh cooked hunk of beef, and hold it under my nose. Mmmmm fresh meat, what was I thinking with this smelly bone? Got any more beef where that came from? */*/*/** You ask if I am afraid? I ask you WHERE'S THE BEEF ???

Bringing the circus with you, I see. LoL

After trying hard for a while earlier today to keep up with all the responding on another thread, "Wierwille's doctorate," I had to give up the impossible task of keeping up with all the posts. I will try to answer them here.

Well I got to flee, but only temporarily. I did not intend to do a major de-railing here, but that is what happened. I am back to cleaning windows again now and don't have the time to do this endlessly. I have saved this page and will try to respond to as many as possible on the "Jumping to Concussions" thread. Please let me know over there if there are any pressing items you want to discuss.

I said give THEM a little time. As for me, give me a chance to change my STYLE here. I am trying to be as responsive as possible.

But I was out of it from 1987 till now. I had time to clear my head.

Proven by a biased GreaseSpot Research Department, using methods designed to prove what is already believed. One by one all of these so-called errors in the written collaterals need to be gone over with great care. I don't think the proving you lean on is trustworthy.

Give it a little time.

No. Wrong history you have in mind. As I just mentioned above, I left the matrix around 1987, after having one foot out for years. I stepped out long ago, and later, after many new learnings, came back to PFAL in 1998.

I have said before, that I have faced many of the challenges discussed here between 6 and 10 years before anyone here. I have gone through all kinds of alternate thinking modes CONTRARY to pfal, LONG before anyone here. I went through that phase, and eventually I found that the collaterals are the baby, and almost everything else was bathwater of varying pollution levels. I finished my thinking of other possibilities outside of PFAL in 1998, a few years before GreaseSpot was founded.

Less insularity. No pressure to take class. No demand for respect without earning it. Willingness to talk about previous forbidden topics. No pressure to tithe. Light heats and cheerful attitudes. I saw all these things in spades here locally, plus rich e-mail conversations with several thinker/writers in TWI around the country, and I sense the same in my few brief interactions with leaders at HQ.

I am trying to not make trouble here. I admit some times we have drifted into meaningless bickering, and i want to change that. I think you are living in the past too much. We got to let go of some of the things we can't change. There are some things that are changable and we should focus on them.

I noticed that identifying the real doctrinal leadership there is problematic, and the anonymous doctrine articles they publish adds to the slight mystery of who is really calling the shots at TWI-4. I am a little bit suspicious that Rosalie and Donna may want to still lead from the shadows. How much this is the case I want to find out for several reasons. I have seen in my business that many commercial undertakings are run by unknown people, who place puppets out in front of thwm to deflect criticism and effective challenges. If this is going on in TWI-4 I will eventually find out about it, by the style of resistance I get. In my business, soliciting contracts from a company means I have to find WHO really makes the financial and budgetary decisions, if I want make a meaningful pitch to work for them. In 42 years I have seen how about 600 businesses operate. It is very common for the real leaders to operate in the shadows, and have front men to do their dirty work.

Some change has already happened. More is to come in my estimation.

Actually, I do bring up the difficult topics at fellowship, but only when I'm sure there are no younger grads or new people who will hear me. I respect the TWI-4 desire to minister to them, and don't want to make that complicated by bringing up 35 year old problems the new people don't need to hear. I respect TWI-4 and they respect me. I have been allowed to say lots of things you'd be surprised at. They often have recognized that I am not not trying to make trouble, but thinking solutions.

I get the impression that the younger leaders inherited a system that they can see WAS broken. I have had frank conversations with local leaders about how they have been patiently waiting and working to see the problems in the ministry dealt with better, now that they are not limited by Rosalie like before. They were obviously fed up with her. I think the younger leaders in the system have a strong motivation to not be associated with a ministry that is hated by so many former members. They have to be highly motivated to not be stuck in the mud the older generation left for them. There is a good chance for systematic change of the system there.

I am NOT using the word "vitrio"l to describe how I see the victims telling their stories of being hurt here. I used the word "vitriol" to describe the attitudes in the most active posters, not the real victim's stories. I also used the word "vitriol" to describe how I am treated when I am trying to introduce some accuracy, balance, and workable solutions. I am not blaming victims for having bad feelings. That is understandable, and I would never blame them, nor scold them for being too harsh. When people are trying to recover from those kinds of things great love and gentleness must be used. Now it gets very complicated when a victim turns around and starts trying to use their situation as a lever of influence in hammering out a new theology to oppose what we learned in PFAL. I am in a difficult position with such a very vocal and influential victim. Do I try to help them heal, or do I debate their theology? I have that problem some with Charlene, and I'm guessing I would have it much more intensely with Kristen. Are any of the high volume posters still in the position of being real victims of damage? I get the impression you folks are over it for your own personal grudges, and you are fighting for the possibly much greater losses of some others.

Actually I have heard that a little, but thought it happened under Rosalie's reign in TWI-3. Officers in her administration may not have been free to resist her will. I have very little knowledge of what exactly went on in RnR. Wasn't that about 5 years ago already? My impression is that crushing that RnR challenge was the last gasp of TWI-3. Let's see how TWI-4 handles the RnR people in the next year. Maybe there will be some reconciliation there as TWI-4 gets its bearings. I don't envy the situation TWI-4 inherited. They could use our prayers in rising above it.