Mike

I am a lot more aware of these kinds of things than I let on. I wish you were more accurate in your characterizations of my position(s). I remember well the tattered remnants arguments, and they still have their place. What I choose to emphasize in my arguments can depend on the topic. I'd say there is more of an evolution in how I say things, more than actual positions changing. I wish you had picked up on my explanation 2 years ago of the Tom Strange saga of the orange book in Jesus' hand. Did you not see it? You repeat that over and over, and most posters have no idea where that came from or what my position really was. I notice they pick up on it as if they had seen me say the original times many years ago. I doubt if you have picked up on it had it not been for Tom Strange and his doggedly hounding me on that. He never got it right, and repeated his orange book story over and over. Maybe I can dig up that explanation I did about 2 years ago, if memory serves me right. I think you finally got it right about the 1942 promise being documented much earlier than the 1972 WLIL book. On that 1965 tape "Light Began to Dawn" there is an account of the 1942 promise. There is also a tiny mention of it in the film class, but almost no detail. I think it was Mrs Wierwille's book that threw you off there. If you listen to the 1965 tape it sounds like it was NOT a first-time revelation to the audience, but more a filling in of detail for newer folks in the audience.

Sure, I can reverse the arrows NOW, after 50 years of doing the original way. But in 1972 I would not have been able to do such a reversal at all. The only love I knew then was in Rock n Roll and hippie music, and that kind of love does not trace back well.

Thank you for allowing me to say all that. There is more. What I typed out was roughly equivalent to the beginning of Session One in the film class. We can talk about all this in Private Messaging or on voice phone if you would like.

I'm curious if you had spent any time in previous decades pondering those chapters in 2 Peter. Was my handling of them brand new to you? For instance, had anyone taught you to look at chapter 2 as a parenthesis? That would mean that the context at the end of chapter 1 resumes at the beginning of chapter 3. Does your way of handling these verses include that feature? Another thing to remember, and I hope you included this also, is that the words that Peter and the others heard coming out of the cloud were a "speaking for God" and prophetic in that sense. Chapters 1 and 3 are about genuine speakings for God or speakers for God, while chapter 2 is about the counterfeit. If you had not included those items in your handling, please try to do so. I'd be happy to hear what you get out of those chapters in 2 Peter. But do you see why I am not seeking experiences, like you were opining were a need in my life? Experiences and the rush of believing that goes along with them, all fade with time. But if you build the Word in your mind, and persistently act on it with love, that kind of believing can grow with time instead of fade.

The collaterals teach us how to read and understand the Bible. The way they do this is by handing us set of keys and perspectives that we are to get practiced at handling. The more we can understand and properly apply the Bible to our lives, the more we can enjoy the life God intended. God wants us to have life and the devil wants to take it away, so there is a competition going on here, and it seems that we are on the losing side, in that everyone dies. One of the major perspectives PFAL gives us to see in the Bible (as well as in our lives) is the fact that our being born into a crumby life behind enemy lines is only temporary. Much can be done to improve life now and prepare a better life at the Return. So, the motivation to know the details here, is the greater efficiency in living life, and greater efficiency in getting prepared for the next life, when Christ Returns. We love God when we see how much He loves us. This enables us to love others and teach them what we can.

Explaining the collaterals is not so difficult, but to an unwilling and resistant student, that explaining can get pretty impossible. Can you understand the peculiar challenges to me explaining the collaterals in a post or two, to a seriously resistant student, in a totally adversarial atmosphere, complete with circus clowns and shock DJ insults? How badly do you want to know these things you ask me of? How much work and time will you put into implementing the answers? Would it be too much for me to ask you to take the initiative in proving to me your sincerity in wanting to learn? How can you assure me I wont be wasting my time explaining all these things to you in text form here in public?

I think you ought to ask God for these things. Or get a hold of the collaterals and read them yourself.

The film class and the book are very skimpy on mentioning the absent Christ. Here is what the book says: "I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word." The best I understand that is the physical Word is taken in as food for the mind and our holy spirit coordinates this process. */*/*/*/* Believing works for saint and sinner alike, but the believer has access to the promises of God. Believing is to be centered on the promises of God, not just any old thing. In this way we have an advantage over sinners. Plus, believing is energized by love. */*/*/*/* You wrote: "And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent? It's all out of anyone's hands anyway." What is not out of our hands is the ministry of reconciliation. That is very much in our hands until the Return. What people are missing by Jesus being absent are meetings over a table at Starbucks.

Those crickets are starting to grate on my nerves. Didn’t victor paul wierwille say Christ is coming back as God Almighty? And, according to The Seventh THE Man of God himself, God approved of this statement when He told victor paul wierwille the ‘77 PFAL was a mistake because the ‘67 PFAL was perfect as is. The crickets were due to waysider not generating a notification to me by quoting me with simple text. As to waysider's question on the order of the names Jesus and Christ, I never studied that out in any detail. I remember no verses where it makes much of a difference for me. It may have come up briefly in the class, but I don't remember it. */*/*/*/* Yes, VPW did mis-speak once in the class as waysider remembers it. I forget the exact wording, but do remember when running classes to be ready with the explanation if questions spill over. In some classes the instructor actually warned the students that VPW would misspeak at the end of the segment. It's not the only mistake in the film class, and that was the attitude we had back then: no big deal. */*/*/*/* You got some of my PFAL'77 message wrong. What I heard in that lunchtime announcement by VPW was that the idea for the project of replacing the 1968 film class did not originate from God, but from 5-senses discussions among top leadership. Nothing at all was said about the 1968 film class being perfect. Instead, he said something to the effect of "it will have to do" as is. What was most clear to me was that God had told VPW that the replacement idea would not work.

There were scriptures in the Way Mag article. The reason I mentioned it is because we were NOT taught that Christ was twiddling his thumbs up there. We were taught all sorts of good things, but the TVTs picked up some very bad stuff. I think that all those grads who suffered from lack of awareness of the Christ within, and the Christ seated at God's right hand, were grads who paid a lot of attention to the TVTs and not nearly enough attention to the collaterals.

You wrote: So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you? Why do you ask? Are you concerned that I am not allowing him to do more? Are you basing this on scripture or feelings? To give me an better understanding of what you are asking me, why don’t you tell me what he is doing in in you now? Give me a full essay on it, please. While you are at it, please also give me the scriptures that guide your interpretation of the feelings you are having. I still want to know why you ask this of me. Are you setting me up for a round of criticisms on my answer, so that you can discredit me on other matters? That is the strategy you are picking up from the company you keep. Or are you just concerned that I missed that brass ring of Christianity, because the collaterals blinded me? If it is the latter, please give me your best, most full essay of the Christ at work within you today. Don’t forget the scriptures. */*/*/*/*/* You wrote: Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth? I am struggling to understand what you mean here. It looks like you are building an analogy, but I am not sure. I will try a simple yes or no answer and see what happens. After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? No. Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? No. Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth? No. Now, how you want to apply all that to me still escapes me. Might you re-write what you are getting at? Are you trying to supervise my internal thought and prayer structure? Are you pulling a Nazi Corps technique of mind control over me by implying that I don’t talk to Jesus enough in my prayer life? I thought you left all that supervision stuff behind!

These types of things must be answered by the scriptures, and not by reasoning and feelings. There was a Way Mag article once, not by VPW, titled "What is Jesus Doing Up There?" Do you remember it? We were taught that Jesus is our defense attorney. He makes intercession. He seems to co-ordinate the good angels. He does not make very many Starbucks dates, but I imagine that is possible. Is he available and on call 24/7 like his Father surely is? I don't know. We need to either wait on the Return for this kind of information, or wait until we see the Word talk about it. */*/*/* I do remember a tape that VPW played for us at the 1975 AC. It was a testimony by a girl who had a horribly deformed spine. One day she had a vision of Jesus, and that he promised to heal her next Wednesday, or something like that. The girl had her parents and doctor in the room when Jesus came to heal her that day. The girl was the only one who could see Jesus walk through the door. But her parents and the doctor could see her spine being straightened. */*/*/* It was a very emotional tape, and there were many tears in our eyes. I can feel the impact of it today as I type this. Why are things like this so lost? Does anyone remember that tape?

Yes, I can, and I just posted on it to Charity. The life giving spirit of Christ is PRESENT, and I always teach that, and VPW always taught that. The Christ that is present is spiritual and within. The Christ that is absent is the flesh man, Jesus. You can't meet him at Starbucks, where he sits on one side of the table and you sit on the other side of the table. When you walk into Starbucks, Christ's legs are behind your legs, when you taste the coffee, Christ's taste-buds are behind your taste-buds. It would be cool if we could have coffee with Jesus, where we saw him, there on the other side of the table. We could ask him oodles of things! We could study his facial expressions, and get to know how he talks and communicates... it would be SO cool to have that kind of Starbucks experience with Jesus.... but Father says no.... not yet... There are more important things in our curriculum He has for us to learn about the JOB Jesus had, and that we now have. Once we taste this job experience relating to Jesus, then at his Return there will be plenty of time for Starbucks gazing across the table. Until then, our JOB is to be the one gazed at, because we are providing the Word of life to the listener at Starbucks.

Take a look at how 2 Peter works. In chapter 1 he talks about his experiences with seeing Jesus in the flesh, but he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories. Then in chapter 2 he warns us of those who are in error. Then in chapter 3 he resumes the "more sure" topic by bringing up the set of all Paul's epistles. I choose to NOT LOOK for experiences, but to the more sure items that are available. Experiences can mislead people. I think you folks are just virtue-signalling with this word "absent." I know Jesus is well hidden by God, and for a reason. I am happy God made Jesus very well hidden, because I understand why He did it. I will be even happier when He decides it is time for Jesus to Return to plain sight. In the meantime we have the Epistles of Paul to guide us in our knowing the spirit of Christ within. Experiences are nice, but never guaranteed, and they always fade. Knowing the Christ within from the Word is something that can grow in time and never fade away.

When God hides Jesus with a cloud (Acts 1), and says he will Return someday, then no one is really going to see Jesus until that Return. God hid Jesus for a reason. God made Jesus absent for a reason. It is temporary. When God does the hiding, then hiding = absent. I realize there are differences in the two words, but when you look at the context, Jesus is absent this minute and no religious feelings will change that. We must wait for the Return to see Jesus. He is GONE !

not available to meet at Starbucks = absent

I'll have to go back to that October post of mine and read the context. Meanwhile did you notice my post a few days ago, that the "absent Christ" phrase happens just once in the film class? ...and just once in the PFAL book? There was never anything built on that word "absent." It is just a synonym for "hidden from sight" the way Acts describes it. The kind of "presence" Adam and Eve had with God is gone. Since then the devil has owned the Earth and run most of the show. This will end soon. Then God's will can "be done on Earth as it is in heaven." The way to deal with this period of time when Christ has not Returned is to look at how Paul handled it. I think we were properly instructed how to handle this time period when Jesus is still hidden from sight as Acts puts it once, or absent as PFAL puts it once. I know what kind of absence (physical) was taught us, and I know what kind of presence (spiritual) was taught us. I realize that in some sectors of TWI, and especially after 1986, the spiritual presence of Christ got lost to some. But it is there in the collaterals.

Sorry, I didn't see any notification of that post of yours. I will head over there now and look at it.

No, I have not ignored anyone, though a lot does slip by me just from the sheer volume of it all. I've been reading a lot of the archives and pondering things. After 20 years of posting, my "stated goals" are going through an evolution. I see lots of change in the air.

No, not in my thinking at all. I was talking about running an EXCELLORS' SESSION. I get the feeling I am the only one here who did it. I get the feeling that I am the only one here who has had a paper file folder on Excellors' Sessions sitting around for 40 years, and who had thought long and hard about the Great Principle in the good old days of the ministry.

You got it almost correct, the strategy for Excellors’ Sessions. But you have NOT moved on; maybe just attempting to move on. I see you and the others here are constantly stuck in the past mistakes and problems and catastrophes. The latest thing I notice here in this thread is the mockery and criticism of SIT and T.I.P. and the Excellors' Sessions. You haven’t moved on from Excellors' Sessions when you all are bringing them up over and over. You all criticize much, what you don't understand. It is obvious that none of you put much thought into the Great Principle (GP) as it was being taught to you, when you were new students of PFAL and the Intermediate Class. You are all just now floundering in new mis-understandings of the GP. I see you groping in the dark on this topic, and it looks like it's the first time. I wonder if any of you were ever appointed to be the leader, in charge of conducting an Excellors' Session. I wonder if any of you ever had a good leader to teach you in your early Excellors' Sessions. */*/*/* The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT. */*/*/*/* People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine. Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P., and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again. Untangling the fears that hold people back was what Excellors' Session were all about. It wasn’t at all a matter of us controlling the spirit; the Spirit’s willingness and ability were never in question. It was always fears that limited people in SIT fluency, and in TIP. When you mechanically remove the fears, the inspiration can happen with no effort. The fear management does require effort. God is totally loving and gentle with His kids as they learn to walk. It blew my mind how many wonderful things could come out of the Excellors' Sessions in the early days of the ministry, when it wasn’t all Way Corps supervised.

The strategy behind Excellors' Sessions probably eludes everyone here. I have posted what that strategy was, but it was probably not absorbed. There is one single key idea that should have run through all of those sessions. Does anyone remember what that was?

The Great Principle pops up in many places in the film class, and several places in the books. But the phrase "absent Christ" occurs only once in the film class, and only once in the book.

The Great Principle (GP) has several forms. One is a positive form where God teaches. The others have a negative form where “God cannot…” or “God can only…” This is one of them: "God can only give that which He is, which is Spirit." That bugged me for SO long. But eventually I got this idea of saying, ok, let’s assume the GP does NOT hold true, and see what happens. That would “allow” God to give that which He is not, which is physical, to us. But wouldn’t that be God merely manipulating somethings or events in the physical, and not really a gift FROM the Almighty Himself?? Think of the gifts the Maji brought to baby Jesus: gifts from the Maji that came with them from Maji-land. A truly REAL gift from God would come from heaven, and would have God’s fingerprints on it, spiritually. ...or God’s DNA in it. That is the imagery I got eventually from this form of the GP. A physical gift from God simply pales in comparison to a spiritual gift from God. */*/*/*/*/*/* This form of the GP, in raw attention getting form, is: "God can only give that which He is, which is Spirit." In explained form it becomes: "God can only REALLY give that which He is, which is Spirit."

No, I didn't give up on you, but I did give up on trying to figure out all the details of your long post, and who said what to whom. It's too complicated to figure out, but I am sorry if I misread you. That happens here a lot. I made a comment on the video above, and I am done with it. I'd rather go back to discussing the important things, like the Great Principle. I just got started bringing in the original class transcripts and book passages on that topic. People have been relying on faulty memory for too long on a lot of these topics. It is the case that I did not understand the Great Principle (GP) for years, but then slowly hunched out an understanding of it in recent decades. It is obvious that no one here EVER understood the GP at all while in TWI, and everyone here was Corps, just about. I would bet money no one cared that they did not understand it back then, and that no one started a paper (or digital) folder on the GP to try and figure it out. I did all that, and I want to present what I found. It is new knowledge for you all.