Mike

Thanks again.

Thanks. That is useful information. Were you at HQ at all during Craig's TWI-2, or was all that pertaining to Rosalie's TWI-3? What were "Just the Way it Was," or "Born Again to Serve" all about? Book titles? Was one of them Mrs. Wierwille's book?

. I hope I am not derailing this thread by bringing up the TWI Research Department. On another thread (Great Principle Whitewashed?) I noticed this portion of a post by T-Bone: This is a very interesting topic: the mission of the Research Department. I am trying to get back to reading Penwork’s book for this reason. I too had a few complaints or issues with the Research Department back in the 70s and 80s, and posted briefly here on them not long ago. I remember hearing of Walter's mission in Germany back then and it immediately generated a red flag. Later, as I thought things through, I wondered how the Research Dept (or VPW) isolated one particular ancient text over the others, and could say “OK, lets run with THIS text.” It seemed like cheating, when it came to how scientific research is done. What was your FIRST reaction to Walter’s mentioning this? Did you spot the problem right away? Or does it now stick out in retrospect. The reason I ask is because from the moment I first heard of Walter’s Germany mission, I have not heard ONE PERSON ever speak up against it, until I read this post from you last Sunday. I’ve been pondering this since then. I was much more critical and suspicious at times back then than you would think. I am amazed at how no one seemed to understand the Research Dept. I think several times VPW tried to tell us that it wasn’t like normal research that they did there. I think we did not get it at the time. Do you remember how the word “research” became “re-search” or "seeing it again," or something like that. Maybe VPW’s explanation of it was lame, or maybe our ability to hear him was lame, or maybe both. There were more instances of this that I had noticed back then, and I really do look forward to reading more of Penwork’s insider's perspective.

Yes, that is the position I arrived at after many years of working the Bible. It is also common sense so clear Raf has agreed with me here. The reason I accepted the absent Christ is NOT because twi taught it, but because it checks out. YOU, Charity, keep talking about absent being error because it goes against "twi's doctrine of the presently absent Christ." You are biased to avoid whatever twi taught. You are in an exploratory mode where you simply seek whatever goes against twi. I went through that phase over 40 years ago. Let me know how it works for you. So what you are falsely saying is I have a pro-TWI bias, while in reality you are the one with an anti-TWI bias.

"Going away" and "hidden" look VERY similar to me. Close enough to bet my life on it. Place your bet.

Yeah, after I posted with "Hemlock Sones" in the text, I wondered how many people would get it, so I googled it. I have never been a good googler. I was surprised that I could not find any Firesign references at all, just that tourist Stone in England. That's when I posted the album cover to Giant Rat, to clue the non-Firesign people in.

What's that "therefore" there for? I don't buy it at all.

I always try my best to be honest in these discussions. I do not try at all to conform to the initial postulates and attitudes that are adopted here as the basis for debate. I have a different set of ground rules for how I approach an apparent error in the PFAL collaterals. I simply refuse to start the debate at the point and with the rules and assumptions that you prefer. You start every debate here with a certain bias. I have a very opposite bias. We come up with differing results. Then we bet our lives on what we come up with.

As soon as I spot the lack of emphasis on the promises of God being central to the law of believing, I know something is wrong. I just read a little more and noticed a few things. A doubling down on the idea that the law of believing is supposed to work for any desired results, bereft of any of God's promises or power. I also noticed that the story is familiar, and I think the author is a poster here. If that is you, then I feel for your struggles. We all have them. There are things in my life I have NEVER had my believing together on. I blame me, not the words I read from Jesus on believing, not the words in PFAL. Some of the promises of God I have no trouble believing with all my heart; for some all I can do is mentally assent, and that's only on a good day. But I don't give up, and am always thankful for when I have seen the law of believing work well in my life.

Yes, God certainly is Good, isn't He!!! I wonder what that man thought of our Jesus after he was healed.

I make many priority decisions each day. MUCH of what I want to do does not get done, but I just do my best. You folks seem to think that my highest priority is getting your approval for my words, after I must prove them to you. I think you miss being a cult leader and want to tell me what my priorities are. Give it up. I will wash windows and pay attention to the topics that I think are most important and deserving of my time. Quit wining that I am not submitting to your Inquisitions. Grow up and pay attention to the issues.

Again it is the "no doubt" part that you are leaving out. You are stuck in the counterfeit "Law of Mental Assent." Believing in the heart with no doubt is different from having a positive attitude and positive thoughts. I think genuine believing with action and with no doubt is a fairly rare thing.

I read the first paragraph and noticed the conspicuous absence of any mention that the law only really works for promises of God. This is a crucial bit of knowledge. Does the author bring it up later in the article? The second epistle of Peter warns that people who get sloppy with the Epistles of Paul bring a lot of destruction upon themselves. The same holds with the law of believing. When the important details, like God's power and God's promises, are left out then people have lots of problems with the law of believing. Another detail often left out is the "no doubt in your heart" part.

It is partial. There is more to this law, such as asking accurately, according to God's will. Jesus taught other details to this law a few times, as did others, like James and Paul.

Mark 11:22- 24 Have faith in God, Jesus answered. Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

It is not just Acts 1. There is far more. Look at all the references here from John 14: 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Besides hidden, here is another way the absent Christ is described in the Bible. 2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. How many more ways can we find in the Bible that describe the post-Ascension to pre-Return ministry of Jesus Christ? Seated at the right hand of God, as opposed to his previous walk on Earth. Appointing us as his ambassadors. It's kinda silly to have an ambassador if you are present. SOMETHING happened on the day of the Ascension that changed things about Jesus. Please describe to me what you think happened to the personal presence of Jesus after that cloud hid him. Put yourself in the shoes of his apostles watching him. One minute he is with them and the next minute.... [please fill in what happened here].

Man, WW! It cracks me up, how much intrigue you and a few others want to inject into me. I’d be a raving lunatic if I had half the schemes you amateur Hemlock Stones wannabees are always trying to pin on me. I’d NEVER be able to keep track of it all!!! */*/* So you think my memory on the tattered references had faded or changed or something else in your soap opera menu? Can YOU tell me why I so heavily promoted the idea that the Bible we have today is a scholarly re-construction of tattered remnants? I remember the reason why, well. Do you? Do you want me to bring that card out again, to squash your foolish diabolical conspiracy theories of me being diabolical about squashing these matters regarding tattered remnants? I got VERY practiced at presenting that unfortunate fact: that the Bible was essentially lost and scrambled by the the First and Second Century church, under the adversary’s direction. This process started before the deaths of the apostles.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Since Paul wrote for God, his words are spirit and life to you. God can respond to you as you study Paul. God is the living Author of those Epistles. If I were to write the perfect essay for you, all it would do is motivate you better to study Paul. If you are not willing to crack open 1 Thessalonians now, then why should I bother writing the essay? All of my teaching to you will be to get you to study Paul for yourself. That is what the PFAL class was all about for you, as well. It was a pointer to Paul. Your refusal to go to Paul right now is not a good sign to me. A hungry student would have had 1 Thessalonians open by now.

Do you remember WHAT ELSE he said about that law and unbelievers? He said it should work better for us. Are you familiar with that book JAL was promoting, The Seduction of Christianity? It was saying that working the brain to believe something that is not a promise of God opens the door to witchcraft.

In a sense you are, in that I am relaying to you what I got from Paul. I'm suggesting you study Paul's Epistles instead of my posts for the truth here. I am pointing you to a source better than me. If you engage me in a discussion on it, I will be bringing Paul into it. If you want to know the truth you must move on to Paul. But if your motivation is not to learn for your personal development, but to box me into a corner based on how flawed an essay I can write for you, then please just back off with your requests. If you want to learn, go to Paul. You can start with 1 Thessalonians. There is an important verse there that can explain "the Word" to you.

It's your anti-idol theology I was talking about. You think VPW taught us to look away from Jesus, but that tape VPW played for us was about a little girl who looked TOWARD Jesus for healing and received it.

The goal worth driving yourself for is to understand what Paul meant by "the Word" and "spiritual."