Mike

T-Bone 2 hours ago, Mike said: What you will find there is the teaching that if we are trying to work the Word for doctrine, THAT'S when we should be suppressing our feelings. Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth. Other than wierwille or you who say “…Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth” are there any normal people who believe that? Where does it teach that in the Bible? These kind of statements you make lead me to believe you are incapable of discerning truth from lies and fact from fiction. Who are you - really?!?! You defend your father in the word salad of lies and delusions. No. I am dealing with ideas and their originations. You may be searching your memory where the rotten attitudes towards sincerity and feelings originated, but I don’t think we can trust that. I am searching the collaterals. If the idea is right, it should be separated from error and respected, regardless of where it came recently. It is you who preoccupied with VPW. I’m looking at history right here. Are you originally from the real world? I guess it never occurred to you that you have no credibility here. If I had no credibility here, no one would flock to try and make my posts more incredible, would they. They would figure I already did the job. Does that make sense? If my posts do not have credibility, you would not waste your time with them. Feelings are part of the whole person! Feelings determine how we respond to truth. II Corinthians 7:10 says godly sorrow leads one to repentance… YES YES YES There are right times to have feelings, just like there are times when sincerity is right and proper, and even rightfully demanded. As you will see in the collateral texts, VPW taught that sincerity and feelings are good… in their proper places. The wrong times for feelings and sincerity is when you are trying to rightly divide the Word, or make a proper decision on the Word, and probably many mundane decisions as well. sorry for the formatting glitch here

OldSkool 1 hour ago, waysider said: Another thick slice (or 2) of baloney. If there's something in the written materials that promotes your premise, the onus is on you to present it. If it's there, it certainly shouldn't require an "essay" to expose it. Bring it on. I'll try my best to discuss it in a fair and balanced manner. His fangs come out in full when he is challenged to support HIS position...which usually ends with him telling us to look at wierwilles books....his true agenda As usual, your drama is misrepresenting, and your mind reading of me has misled you. I am making progress in searching for data. I was thinking we’d do this together; join us in getting to the bottom of where the rotten attitudes toward sincerity and feelings originated and was promoted. -

I think that is one-half of the spirit realm, and the temporary half.

Posted October 12, 2005 Outin88, Sincerity is a good thing, but not good enough to guarantee truth. It is good enough to help (among other factors) drive a person to the truth. The only way to get a guarantee for truth is directly from the Father. I sincerly seek His approval, and not men's. Most people find comfort in tradition to guarantee "their truth." If enough people, for a long enough time, believe something then it SEEMS safe. What's YOUR guarantee for truth? *** I don't know if it was revelation or not for Craig to be king. I do know God preferred that Israel NOT have a king, and ditto for us. God rarely gets His way with people's cooperation, so He uses plan B. It looks from the tape that maybe it was a BOT decision. I don't know for sure. I do know that God held his nose and had Saul anointed, and then later had to abandon him. It looks like that's what happened with Craig, revelation or not. *** We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US. He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm. What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error. This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though. Edited October 12, 2005 by Mike

I am sincerely researching "sincerity" and found the e old post below in the archives at: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/7824-revelation/page/3/#comment-190737

I already started researching it. But IMO, there's no "if" about what the printed materials say. I’ve seen this before, and am going on pretty good memory. But I often find with you and with me and with all grads, that our memories are not good enough for this important work. I often find that the books were not as thoroughly committed to memory, compared to how many of us fairly well memorized the film class soundtrack. But with the books, lots of things we forgot; lots of things we weren’t ready to get at all, and many times we failed to see the refinements that took place, when the books (PFAL & RHST) were produced. Example: hardly anyone noticed (including me) that the “red drapes” did not make it in the final cut. There is no red drapes story in the PFAL book. */*/*/*/*/* Soooo, I already went back to the book. I am doing a digital search on sincerity, sincere, feelings, and whatever buzz phrases hit me later. So far, as I can see I am 100% correct, but I want to thoroughly search the book. I have only briefly visually scanned the texts, so far, but they back up what I was saying. But I have only begun this PROJECT. If you include this introduction, it could be more than an essay in no time. Maybe even start a new thread? “Sincerity and Feelings – when good? When bad?” */*/*/* It COULD BE that the book deleted some of the film class transcript’s material on these topics. That happened often. That transcript search will be more difficult, for several reasons, but eventually I can get to it. Buzz words and phrases are FAR more important when searching the transcript than the book. If anyone wants to participate in this, feed me buzz words. A human visual scan (by me) of all the collateral chapters will be included. I could use suggestions here too. The transcript may contain outright error or some wording that looks too misleading. If so, these would be deleted from the book. It may very well be that some of the later garbage TVT teachings on feelings and sincerity were based in the comparatively more crude versions of VPW’s teaching on sincerity and feelings in the film class. This very phenomenon is one of the BIG reasons VPW told top leadership that they needed to master the class and the materials that come with it, which are the collaterals. He didn’t say “master the transcript” but he did say master the class and the books. There was a NEED for top leadership (who mostly matured before the collaterals were finished) to master the refined versions of the PFAL teachings in printed form. They thought that they had mastered the rough version, the audio soundtrack, and that was enough for them. It wasn’t enough. There were BIG changes from film to book. It will be real interesting to see all that the transcript reveals. Meanwhile all that the book and other collaterals offer is going to take some time to gather and process. Yeah, this is far more than an essay. It could be a collateral booklet in ITSELF ! (just kidding)

I'll be watching. I think every point that could be covered was covered.

Not true! I told you I liked your verses. We can discuss them over in the Jumping thread. I think what Raf mean is the thread should be about the absent Christ and not about attacking Mike. That is what it degenerated to. Actually yesterday was the THIRD intervention by Raf. Two pages before that he asked when the last on-topic posts went up. I was the only one who answered in the affirmative. So, that is why I wanted to cooperate with Raf. OkdSkool, if you folks come up with anything new here in this thread, please let me me know and I'll participate.

You just repeated my point. They are NOT good for truth guarantees, but fine in other settings. Looks to me like you still don't get the distinction. They are good some times but bad at other times. Finding truth is the bad time for feelings.

I think if you look hard for us being taught widespread emotion suppression in classes and the collaterals, you wont find that kind of teaching. What you will find there is the teaching that if we are trying to work the Word for doctrine, THAT'S when we should be suppressing our feelings. Feelings and sincerity are NOT good for discerning truth. Another area where we should suppress our emotions is when we are trying to make a complex, difficult decision on important matters, especially if it involves asking for revelation. Outside of that feelings and sincerity are WONDERFUL! But that is not what the Corps led TVTs taught us. For the sake of Corps discipline, feelings and sincerity were OVERLY suppressed in the verbal traditions that developed. It leaked out to us non-Corps as well. THAT is how we were taught to suppress our humanity in TWI. It was not the collaterals that were responsible for that.

I left a set of questions about ChatGPT in the Absent Christ thread. Anyone want to answer them here. I want to let things settle there after Raf's intervention. */*/*/*/* But while we're at it: Something I did not dare mention on the Absent Christ thread is that in my youth I looked at the verse that says Jesus past thru the heavens and thought "Hey! That means he went faster than the speed of light, and my Relativity brain circuits start thinking Time Travel. What if God took Jesus into the future on the day of the Ascension, and set him into his "return" at some future date? That could mean that the absent Christ is nowhere now, but waiting for us in the future. I pretty quickly figured out the the Bible does not teach anything about Time Travel, and I ditched the whole idea. It was way too complicated to be truth.

I'm a little bit embarrassed but a major bit elated at the way Raf ended the "Absent Christ" thread in an confusion piercing explosion of common sense. I'm elated because he said what I had struggled several times and ways to say, and he did it MUCH more elegantly than I could have. I'm embarrassed that I didn't come up with it. Just a little, though. The elation outshines it. */*/*/*/* Raf's post reminded me of a dissimilar situation, but with some strong comonality. It was regarding a MUCH DEBATED topic here for about 20 years here concerning PFAL page 83. As usual, everyone always said I was crazy about the grammar I was claiming was happening on that page. This went on thread after thread, many times in 20 years, where page 83 was the big debate everyone was focused on for hours or days, or longer. Well, page 83 was raging again, about... maybe 8 months ago or more, and I asserted that I had asked language experts about page 83 and they agreed with me. Every one scoffed, and that is putting it gentlemanly terms. Then late one night I was answering a post on page 83, again asserting that everyone should ask a language expert. and Boom! In comes.... dare I say it? I could be wrong... I could look it up... but if memory serves me correct it was Nathan_Jr who suddenly showed up out of nowhere, and agrees with my grammar! I don't think I had seen him post yet. He said the grammar on that page did not need a language expert and it was disgusting that VPW would say on page 83 such a thing. Nathan_Jr was agreeing 100% with my grammar, but strongly disagreed that VPW had a right to say it. But is is very strong in language technicalities. He put all of rage against VPW into agreement with my grammar analysis. I quietly gloated and never mentioned page 83 again. I don't think anyone brought it up after that again. If memory serves me it was crickets on page 83. I think someone may have informed Nathan_Jr that he had upset 20 years of their dug-in position that page 83, and had sided with the enemy. My mind picture of this was Steve Martin and John Candy woke up to discover they were intimately embracing in a cold bed. They all re-grouped to attack me again as if nothing happened. These are the things the historians and digital archeologists will someday find and say "Well, lookee here. This is interesting." */*/*/*/* I offered to back out of the Absent Christ thread, but no one seemed to notice. I think that Raf neatly wrapped it up.

You asked earlier in this thread who Raf is. Did you read his post?

Raf, thank you. After reading that extremely Gamaliel-like bit of common sense, I am willing to help you with whatever re-booting this thread means to you. I'm willing to bow out of the thread, and let the chips settle where they may. */*/*/*/* I would like it if, OldSkool, you could complete your Blue Scripture list. I have an old folder labeled "The Post Pentecost Ministry of Jesus Christ" and your current list is in it now.

He asked me ONE question, and TWO essay questions. I briefly answered the first one, and assigned him an essay question in return. Did you miss those items? */*/*/*/* But while we are here, off the rails again, talking about me pointlessly again, this is my chance to bring up something totally off the topic. Does anyone here know much about ChatGPT? How about Eliza circa 1964? I was thinking of feeding ChatGPT my minFW chapter 1 on free will, and ask for a review. Or maybe my NT Canon paper. Is this doable stuff? I went to the free trial website, but there was a Star Wars like line out and around the building. */*/*/*/* Ok, let's hoist this trippy train back on the tracks.

Yes. The second post on this page was very much on the Absent Christ. Plus I had a followup one mid page. When I am not defending my honor, or answering questions, I come up with the most on-topic posts, in my opinion.

I do not regard an accurate projection to be a lie. It gets the job done. You are really stretching it here. You are the one with an idol above God: your anti-idol is just as much as an idol. I differ and disagree with VPW in ample places. I am thankful to God for directing me to his teachings.

1. I can do both to my satisfaction. I'd like to have more time and energy to post more, but have to budget it. 2. As I said earlier today, I don't feel this is a waste posting here. That is your projection and incorrect.

You are swimming in your own BS. You can never know what is going on in my mind or in my life. You just are starting with all the wrong ingredients to have a clue. I suspect your thinking in other areas you know nothing about is equally loaded with undeserved self respect.

Come to San Diego and I can show you what I am talking about. I get an astounding amount of attention, and it is challenging to handle it. If you want to believe your own constructed lie about this, someday you will be very ashamed of it. How come you don't apply the same length of post criticism to WW and T-Bone? Who are they conning?

Received by a cloud (and thus hidden by it) seems literal and a literal ascension to the 3D sky. ""not known after the flesh" seems to have nothing to do with physical dimensions. "seated at the right hand of God" is definitely figurative and NOT pertaining to physical dimensions. Those were the only phrases you cited.

1. I have stories to tell about the positive attention I get right now, here in my personal life that I have never posted on. No one would believe me if I did. I have had a VERY odd life. I had to write down the oddities some time ago to believe I had really had experienced them. I look at the list and can hardly believe it all. Let's just say that I get MUCH more positive attention than I deserve in my private unrevealed life. I marvel at it, and constantly want to find ways to turn this positive attention to moving the Word. I figure there is a duty attached to this very surprising, but odd blessing. 2. The duty I feel in posting here has been successful from my standpoint, plus it has all sorts of auxiliary blessings to me. For one, I have sharpened my writing skills considerably in the last 20 years. I have a wealth of boilerplate to discuss many Word related and TWI related topics. I have met a few life-long friends from lurkers and low volume posters that you folks never see. I could go on, but I assure you, I don't like the negative attention, and I do not lust for positive attention. I actually have TOO MUCH positive attention now, and am often praying it not go to my head, and that I can properly handle to God's glory. 3. This item makes no sense to me. 4. I am still doing the "making people feel good" thing, but just not with comedy. I do a little of that on the side. 5. I am going very slow with the TWI-4 people. They give me much more attention than I had expected a few years ago. I am more interested in celebrating the many things I agree with them on, but am slowly accumulating some constructive criticisms for them. I took the PFAL-T class to experience again the 3 weeks of synchronized attention that the class members enjoy. I had not experienced such a mass sync of minds since 1985. Most of my PFAL study has been alone, and doing it with other people again was a joy. I get plenty of attention from them and am thankful for it. The people on the field have been paragons of love, and I sense that HQ is possibly just as loving, just too busy to interact much. So, I am not rushing them, and soaking up the local fellowship as much as possible.

I really want to get into your Blue Scripture List of "re-visits" by the absent Jesus prior to his Return. My first response was just the beginning of what i want to do. All those scriptures are plain and easy to read and understand the main idea. I think some may be Jesus himself re-visiting OR being a projection from angels like the Transfiguration depiction of Moses and Eliajah and the burning bush. I think some of those scriptures may indicate a projection. I don't see any functional difference between a personal re-visit and a projection. What is important is that the job gets done. I also wish you'd take seriously the AC'75 tape VPW played about the little girl getting healed by Jesus with her parents and doctor watching. It shows that he was not trying to hide Jesus from our consciousness with his use (once) of the word "absent." That was early in the game. Late in his life VPW published that chapter on Zaacheus and urged us to SEEK JESUS. We should have seen then that just because God caused him to be temporarily absent does not mean Jesus is out of the story. It is a CHANGED configuration for his interactions between the Ascension and the Return. All your Blue Scripture List items can be handled this way. The absent Jesus either re-visits or is projected in a vision. God is obviously happy with the current arrangement of him being "received by a cloud" or "not known after the flesh" or any of the other descriptions of his current state "at the right hand of God." How do you like that! We are back on topic!