Mike

I took that class in 1974 or '75. My collateral study was 1998-2018. Lots of new projects going on in the past 5 years.

I think the English convention (like my spell checker) may not be that arbitrary, but it harkens back to the KJV being such a large presence in the language for centuries. The translators may have had a reason for the upper and lower case designations?

Never read either. I think Jesus talked about it happening with him. And I think this is also related to "the devil would not have crucified Jesus, had he known the mystery." I've never thought about where I got that notion. I think from just reading the KJV.

I'm totally ignorant on the Greek or Aramaic words for it, but I know the principle is one of "direct versus indirect," Indirect can have degrees of separation. Does that ring a bell? Entropy may be the deepest example of the indirect, Satan, but I have only heard and entertained this idea a few times. Something I have always wondered about is the why is Satan usually with a capital "s" and the devil with a lower case "d" ?

There is some truth in that. Encountering the devil's direct resistance can very well mean his kingdom is threatened. HOWEVER, encountering satanic (not direct) resistance can possibly mean that the problem is self inflicted. I saw this in the ministry at times. Neighbors would rightfully complain about twig fellowship people hogging all the parking spots, or singing too loud with open windows. This was wrongly interpreted at times as a devilish attack, when it was just stupid.

This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.

I thought the purpose of this thread's discussion was to mock some statements I made with a gross misrepresentation. It is silly to think someone say: "I must be right because everyone is insisting I am wrong!"

I can see that for SOME reason, the Jesus cult is not taken seriously, or maybe it's because I am the one bringing it up. Maybe instead of embarrassment avoidance I sense, it may be fear that I have an ace up my sleeve and playing gotcha. I have seen where academics are analyzing cults and they include Jesus in with the malevolent cults. There were a couple of times Jesus sounded like he was the anti-family kind of a cult leader and urged followers to separate from family ties. Maybe the avoidance here of the "Jesus cult" is because it doesn't fit in with cult theories? If there was any talk about this here, I never saw it, or don't remember it. I get a strong sense no one wants to talk about it now.

Yeah. Pretty dry humor, that is.

TWI was not the target of my questions. I think TWI-2 and -3 drifted deep into malevolent cult behavior. The early twigs I attended were benevolent. What I was asking about were the human dynamics that malevolent cults use, and how they are analyzed here and by some academics. My questions are about Jesus using the same techniques for his group, but in a godly, balanced manner. My example was the technique of isolation and "us against them" mentality. I saw lots of good uses of that technique at times in early TWI, but also saw lots of bad uses in TWI's later years. I think VPW tried and somewhat succeeded in keeping the Corps in the benevolent status, but his influence sharply dropped after 1982 with Craig at the wheel. I saw the Corps develop into a malevolent cult in the mid 1980s.

So, you are embarrassed to discuss the cult behavior of Jesus and his disciples?

NO! I mean like Jesus and followers 2000 years ago.

I don't get the connection between your post and the lines you quoted from me. Interesting article, though. I notice you and some others constantly talking about and studying the human dynamics involved in diabolical cults. Do you believe in good cults? I do believe that the adversary uses genuine human dynamics to achieve diabolical ends. My question to you is do you and the university people who study these things ever look at the positive sides of how the SAME human dynamics are designed to be used to construct useful societies of all sizes? Whenever I see any kind of cult studies, I wonder if they ever study the benevolent cult of Jesus with 12 apostles and about 500 followers? Does any one here actively think that there are good cults? Why are those human dynamics there for the devil to exploit? I believe that there are good cults, and it was probably the case that VPW did also. I think he purposely used techniques that were to supposed help people in the Corps program, but degenerated as time went by. For example, do you recognize anything resembling a good cult where things like limited and controlled isolation, or "us against them" is properly used to help in learning and commitment to worthy principles?

Why would I need to know a lot, when I know Luke Chapter 4? "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it." You don't think the devil would overlook the kingdom of academia, do you?

No. The contents of a book can only cause a SIGNIFICANT personal relationship with the author THAT I AM INTERESTED IN when I read 1 John 1 and 1 Peter 1, and think of the apostles and seeing them again in the future. I thought those goal posts were understood. Now they are in cement. ...or is it concrete?

Tisk, tisk. Shakespeare wrote no God-breathed texts we can commune over, have in common with, be fellow sharers of,... like we can/have/be with the apostles (and other Biblical writers). The reason I insist on this apostolic fellowship is because it comes up in 2 Peter 1 also, which we were just discussing with Charity. Peter wanted us AFTER HIS DEATH to remember and believe. He said the way to do this is to believe the words of the prophets, and namely Paul. Paul was likely dead by that time, yet his writings lived. The Biblical writers we can be fellows with as the sleep, sharing a belief with them that was sustained by the written Word.

They teach literature where these issues come up, and the professors opine often on same. I'm talking more the Liberal Arts, and not science and engineering

I think the Word needs to be in a renewed mind of a person with holy spirit. THEN it can effectively take the place of the absent Christ as that person reconciles people back to God.

No, I disagree. I said I wanted to see how the chips fall with me not there. Let me know if anything SUBSTANTIAL is discovered there, and I'll at least read it, and maybe return to discuss it. Surely you must know that I will be criticized if I do return to that thread. If I couldn't stand scrutiny, I'd have been long gone from here.

Yes, I am thinking the a relationship and fellowship are pretty much the same. It seemed to me that you were adding the word "personal" to the mix. I agree there are many scriptures that talk about our "full sharing" type of relationship or fellowship over lots of items we have in common.

No, but the inspired written words of the (temporarily) dead apostles are alive. We have fellowship with with the Father and the Son via these written words. I feel a sense of distant-relationship or a suspended fellowship with them, that will be revived at Christ's return. I don't think those words were put there, only to expire when the apostles died. I think we ought to recognize this fellowship, like the "cloud of witnesses."

I'm not talking about the nitty gritty part of academia, laboring with facts and figures. And I am not talking about Bible based colleges either. Academia does very well there. I am talking about when the topic is God and life and living and social "sciences" and politics and the meaning of life. It is on the really BIG issues that academia forbids truth and knowing the truth, JUST AS MUCH as God promises all this is very doable with His help. Academia, being one of the most powerful arms of the devil's controlled kingdoms, wants to thwart seekers from seeking God for these higher truths.

I did one summary response to them, and gave ways each scripture can be handled. Actually handling them, one by one, will take some time, maybe a long time for some. I asked you a few times for you hottest one, and you ignored that. Have you added any new ones? Remember I told you I put that list in a special folder, and not the circular one? If you added any, I'll update it. You are just impatient with my slow response. Want me to bring my summary over here? I was just trying to make that thread less Mikeish as Raf desired. I really did say all I could there, except for your long blue list. And you wont mind if I bring Raf's comments over here in mini-discussions of absent Christ? I am still a little stunned at how he wrapped it up for me. I'm going to ask ChatGPT to re-write his response for me, so I can use it as my own and copyright it.

When it comes to children learning, imitation is how they learn. I have a fabulous Internet video of famous Emma O'Sullivan doing her fabulous Irish free-form step dancing on cobblestones, busking with a hat for donations. A tiny toddler, who is still learning to walk confidently, approaches her, and imitates her steps crudely, but very recognizably. It is absolutely darling. I have seen this same phenomenon at San Diego's hippie beach with a band playing loud Rock n Roll outdoors on an asphalt at a weekly Farmer's Market. Parents bring their toddlers to learn to dance. I have danced with about 3 of them over the years. It is hilarious and awesome to see how God put "circuitry of imitation" into their DNA and tiny brains. Neuroscience may have identified these circuits with the discovery of what they call Mirror Neurons. This has been going on for almost 30 years.

Yes. We've all agreed JC should be in that TWI-4 blurb. PLUS there is STILL another fellowship (from 1 John 1) that no one but me mentions: we fellowship with John and the apostles who wrote the Word for us to believe on Jesus.