Mike

Right. We are not instructed to have that kind of a prayer relationship with Jesus, nor do we have examples of it. Jesus prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same. The only 2-way conversations we see in the Scriptures with the post-Ascension Jesus participating in are unusual events, initiated by God and look to be either unique "re-visits" or Godly constructed projections (visions), that were not at all part of everyday life. I think this is what a lot of people are seeking, who have rejected the relationship of ambassador that God has provided for us with the Ascension. People want the "feel" that he is not absent, not hidden, not personally present, and a 2 way conversation is pretty close to that kind of a feel. People who refuse to see God's plan, that it involves taking Jesus away from such "personal presence" relationships, will then construct counterfeit relationships, with make-believe 2-way communications with Jesus. People who don't like God's plan can circumvent it by just dialing Jesus direct... and getting a wrong number. I will wait for God to provide the real deal with Jesus personal presence in the near future.

Here is the last installment: Gift Ministries. In order for the Church to function as a whole, however, there are certain gifts of grace that it needs, in addition to the power of the gift of holy spirit in each member. These gifts of grace also were not available until Christ ascended. They are called gift ministries. Ephesians 4:8, 11: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. The reason and functions of these gifts of grace are given in the following verses. Ephesians 4:12, 14, 15: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they He in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. How magnificent is the ascension! Not only do we have the power of holy spirit, the “comforter” from God because of it, but also we are of the Body of Christ, the Church of Grace, and we know how to operate the power we have been given. Along with it, we have the gift ministries for the perfecting of the saints and the building up of the Body of Christ. All of this is available because of the ascension. Had the ascension not occurred, there would still be many benefits to believers as the result of the life, death and resurrection of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Among these are newness of life, righteousness, justification, freedom from the bondage of sin and the consequences of sin. These benefits were not new with the resurrection of Christ. Adam and Eve enjoyed them before their disobedience. The purpose of Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Old Testament, was to undo the consequences of that disobedience and to regain these benefits for believers. He accomplished this by his death and resurrection. God, however, had a greater purpose in mind for His only begotten son. He kept that greater purpose hidden until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul. This is the great mystery. It is in the ascension and seated position of Jesus Christ that God’s “riches of the glory of this mystery’’ (Colossians 1:27) could be made known. Because Christ was raised through the heavenlies, he is at God’s right hand. Because he is seated there, our redemption is complete. Because he is above all the power of the Adversary, we can claim victory in every dimension of our lives with our power of attorney in the name of Jesus Christ. We are seated with him (Ephesians 2:6) and complete in him (Colossians 2:10). Captivity is led captive and he works as our daysman and advocate. Because he is up “on high,” we take his place down here with the power of holy spirit that he sent forth. We are perfected as spiritual individuals and built up collectively as a body by the gift ministries which he gave to the Church. We now live as members of his Body (and not as separate units), with Christ as the head because he ascended to the headship of the Church. This Church of the Body forms the habitation of God where God has taken up residence in Christ in us. That is God’s greater purpose which He kept hidden from before the foundations of the world. As we claim these truths and walk in this light, we partake of the allegorical banquet that is the more abundant life. By God’s providence, we were ushered in and seated for the main course. Our first taste of the rightly-divided Word of God was a morsel of that new kind of nourishment not mentioned in the Old Testament menu. It is our privilege to enjoy this banquet of life completely paid for by the death, resurrection and ascension of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. [end]

It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also. My life was benefited greatly; still is.

Sorry for the pieces. This is second to the last piece. Greater Works This power is Christ in us (Colossians 1:27) and it enables us to operate all nine manifestations of the spirit (I Corinthians 12:7-11). It is incorruptible seed in us (1 Peter 1:23), and we can lead others to the new birth and into the operation of all nine manifestations of the spirit. This is the "greater works” of John 14:12. It could not have been made available without the ascension of Christ. The abilities of Jesus Christ in his resurrected body while on earth were fantastic, but after his ascension, God put the power of Christ in every born again believer. Hence, there is more power available to believers today than there was before the ascension. That is some of the magnificence of the more abundant life Christ came to make available. How are we, then, to operate and live by this power? Are we to be individual power-charged units, each moving his own way according to his own individual plan? Again, the answer is a resounding "God forbid!” The instruction as to what to do with this power is also available as a result of Christ’s ascension. We know that on the day of Pentecost when this power was first made available, the Church ceased being the Bride of Christ and became the Body. The organization and structure of the Church of the Body is instruction as to how we are to function as Christians. It could not be implemented until after Christ had assumed his ascended position. Ephesians explains why. Ephesians 1:20-23: Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. There is more power available to believers today than there was before the ascension. It is only when Christ was seated at the right hand of God that he could assume the headship of the Church of the Body. This Church is the great mystery. Had the Devil known what was going to happen as a result, I Corinthians 2:8b says, he would not have crucified Jesus Christ. What a magnificent truth! Without Christ’s ascension, we would not have the mystery. There are two great aspects of the mystery which make it unique in the history of God’s dealing with people. One is that, for the first time, the Church is the called out of Jew and of Gentile to be fellowheirs, of the same Body and partakers of God’s promise in Christ (Ephesians 3:6). For the first time, the Gentiles had equal access with the Jews into the grace of God. This is a tremendous truth. Christ is the head. The second spectacular aspect is that Christ is the head of the Body. The Church is one Body with and of Christ, not separated as the Bride and Bridegroom were. Because of this "oneness” of relationship, Christ is able to energize each part of the Body directly. He directs each member by his spirit which is in each individual believer.

It was spread out over several pages in the back. Sorry to have missed your desired mark.

This was the kind of thinking about Jesus that went on in TWI-1 in the 1970s. This article was written because so many of us were asking the same questions. This seeking Jesus went down in TWI-2. It wasn't cool in the Corps. The TVTs of the 80s discouraged thinking about Jesus. I think that is why that chapter about Zacheus seeking Jesus appeared in OMSW (1985). John Lynn published a letter where a young person wrote VPW asking it it was ok to talk to Jesus, and VPW said it is ok. Then there was the Rock of Ages 1972 movie, and VPW gently taught the little boy that Jesus was inside.

Next installment: He Is Our Advocate Jesus Christ fulfills another office while in the heavenlies. He is our advocate. 1John 2: 1 and 2: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And [But] if any man sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. The word “advocate” is the Greek word parakletos, which means “one who may be called to help or aid.” It is used of legal assistance. It is the noun form of the word translated “exhortation” in I Corinthians 14:3 where it says that a prophecy or a message in tongues with interpretation will exhort, will encourage toward a more worthy endeavor. The office that the ascended Christ fulfills in this case is again dealing with forgiveness and reconciliation of the sinner and God, similar to that of the daysman. This time, however, the emphasis is on the legal side of our forgiveness. An advocate is synonymous with a defense attorney; and, indeed, the context in I John goes on to mention the propitiation, the legal payment in full for our sins. Jesus Christ not only brings the sinner and God back together in a tender, loving, heart manner; but this reconciliation is legally sound. The sin, the breach of God’s laws, has been completely paid for, and Christ Jesus is in the “heavenly court room” to plead our case every time we need it. This is an amazing thing, we who were dead in sins, quickened by God’s grace, yet who continue to fall short of the mark of fellowship with God have an attorney who paid the consequences of our shortcomings and has taken up residence at the right hand of the throne of God to defend us from the slander of the Adversary and to reconcile us each time we break fellowship. How all-encompassing is God’s care for His sons! We have seen that Jesus Christ, when he left his earthly ministry of teaching, healing, preaching, etc., was given a greater office of mediator and defender of those who need forgiveness from God. But have the jobs he used to do been left undone? God forbid. II Corinthians 5:20 says: “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ. ...” From the context of verses 18-21 , we see that our ambassadorship is tied in with reconciliation which the ascended Christ is accomplishing for us every time we need it. God is a God of more abundance, not less abundance. Just as He did not seat Christ in the heavenlies to give him a less important job than he had on earth, He did not leave that earthly job to be done by less competent people. We are ambassadors for Christ. What could possibly make us more competent than Jesus Christ was when he was on earth? It was the result of his ascension! John 14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. The questions that come to mind about this verse are “How? When?” The answer to both is found in the phrase “because I go unto my Father.” Because of Jesus Christ’s ascension to the Father, power was made available to those who believe on him. This power, which was not available before this time, now enables believers to do those things which Jesus Christ did on earth, and even greater things. What is this power? It is the power of the “comforter,” the gift of holy spirit. John 14:16 and 1 7: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. It was not available for this power to be received before the ascension. John 16:7: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 7:38 and 39: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) When the day of Pentecost was fully come and this power was given to man, glory was given to God and His son Jesus Christ. The necessity of the ascension was noted by the Apostle Peter. Acts 2:32 and 33: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses [because they spoke in tongues]. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Oh, sorry. The OCR came out pretty bad. Not all of it, though. I was on the run, and wanted to post what I had cleaned up so far.

Oh, the author was John Seiffer, 5th Corps The title is "What Is Jesus Christ Doing Up There?"

Here is the first installment on that article. It required a ton of editing, getting it exact. I'll get the next posted soon. This is from Oct/Nov 1978. “There is no such thing as a free lunch!” That was the conclusion of a group of economists when asked to express the basis of economic theory in one sentence. The rescuing of humankind from the state of death brought on by Adam’s sin is, metaphorically, a banquet prepared by the most talented Chef, served in the most elegant of dining salons by the most attentive of servants. Its cost is correspondingly superlative, yet the bill we receive includes all gratuities and is marked “Paid in Full” by the work of Jesus Christ. To pay for this banquet, God gave His most valuable asset — His only begotten son. The promise of this sacrifice gave hope to the Old Testament believers and allowed them to taste of the hors d’ouevres and appetizers of God's banquet. In the menu, written by the prophets, they could read of the courses to come. These courses were to be brought by the coming of the Messiah — first in suffering, then in glory. The banquet was progressing as expected — the main courses being prepared by the death and resurrection of Christ, “our passover,” when, to the surprise of all the diners, the Chef produced His piece de resistance — the great mystery. Not mentioned on the menu, it was nourishment of a different sort, heretofore untasted, never before served on any table. It is this course that you and I partake of today — a completely new food made available by the ascension and exalted position of our advocate and mediator, Jesus Christ. Have you ever wondered, “What does Jesus Christ do up there at God’s right hand?” It is easy enough to see what he did on earth. We can read the gospel accounts of Christ healing the sick, raising the dead, teaching God’s Word, proclaiming the Kingdom of God, and many other feats, all of which were carrying out the will of God here on earth as only the Son of God could. Since he is ascended, he can no longer do those things, yet God would not raise him into the heavenlies to demote him. What he is doing now must be of greater importance and significance than what he did on earth, if that is imaginable. It is, if we use God’s Word to enlighten our imaginations with accurate “Word pictures.” I Timothy 2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. He Is Our Mediator. This is a very enlightening verse. First of all it tells us that Christ Jesus is a man and that God is one God (not three). Jesus Christ could not, therefore, be God. A mediator is a “go-between,” one who stands in the middle and communicates or deals with each party. More technically, a mediator is “one who mediates for peace and unites parties at variance.” The Greek word for mediator, mesites, does not occur in profane Greek since they had no higher word than that meaning arbitrator. In the Septuagint, this word mesites occurs only in Job 9:33 where it is translated “daysman.” This translation sheds tremendous light on the role of the ascended Christ, in view of the Eastern culture of the daysman. A daysman in Eastern culture was literally a “great soul” in a town or village. He was unappointed and he was not elected but he was a man of great wisdom, well versed in the Scriptures, a man who rose up to reconcile the wrong-doer to the wronged. Jesus Christ acts to reconcile mankind back to God. He is our mediator, our daysman. The daysman handles each situation personally, tenderly, unhurriedly. He is usually a wealthy man, well known and respected in his village. When people have a problem and want more than a legal settlement, both parties come to his door. He invites them in, gives them something to eat and waits until they bring up the situation. Then, patiently, he will hear each side of the story, yet he never makes a judgment. From his knowledge of the Scriptures he lovingly explains to the wrongdoer why he is wrong and why he needs forgiveness. Then he patiently explains to the wronged why he should be forgiving. This is tremendously revealing when applied to Jesus Christ, as he can personally relate to every situation that would cause a believer to break fellowship with God. Christ was tempted in all points, confronted with every opportunity not to obey God, not to believe God in every specific area, yet he did not sin (Hebrews 4:15). God has never been tempted with the sin of disobeying Himself. Therefore, to speak in limited, human terms, we could say He has not “been through it” like Jesus Christ has. That is why calling Jesus Christ a daysman, a mediator, between sinful man and God is so meaningful. This relationship of daysman emphasizes the tenderness, the concern and the love involved between God, Jesus Christ and men. The result is total forgiveness and complete reconciliation beyond the degree that could be accomplished by Jesus Christ while on earth. It takes the greatness of his position at God’s right hand to be our daysman.

Come on now! You were hoping I'd entangle my self in T-Bones web above, even though I've handled those points lots of times in the past 20 years. Maybe I should get myself edjumicated on the Advanced Search engine here and retrieve my old answers? No, I want to go in different directions. But HERE in this thread I have some news. I found the old Way Mag article "What is Jesus Christ Doing Up There?" and will scan it in soon for discussion. That will mean another bump-back on reading Undertow, but that is a stable iron in the fire. I want to see the story about the Research Dept, because I had a number of interactions with that department around the same years Charlene was in it. Another project I am considering is a Doctrinal thread about God limiting Himself. Does He have a budget? I've brought this up a few times with almost zero detail. However, I have an old folder going back to the late 70s on it that I have been throwing verses into every now and then.

No one who's life was changed for the better by his ministry believes he was a fake, because he delivered the goods. To those who expected him to be their perfect idea of a holy man, he was definitely NOT what they wanted. But to those who received great truths and the ability to find more truths from PFAL are grateful to God for his walk, when he walked with God. I think his old-man nature was completely contrary to what he really was and what he did when he was in fellowship. When he was in fellowship he did great things for us. THAT is what I prefer to focus on and magnify. Focus on his old man nature and he was a failure. Focus on his new man nature and he was a success. The same holds for you and me. When we walk in fellowship we are able to do wonderful things for people. When we walk out of fellowship, God covers for us the best He can, and waits for us to walk with Him again.

An anti-idol is what someone "loves to hate," and that love is greater than or competes with their love for the True God. An anti-idol is very similar to, or is a variation of a regular idol that is loved, except the worship of an anti-idol is like worship in a "Bizzarro Superman Comic." An anti-idol is worshiped by expressions of hate and the reasons for that hate. The anti-idol constantly being built and maintained by many here is VPW. That is, VPW distorted into the Epitome of Pure Evil, who was always out of fellowship, and never obeyed God, and never blessed His people. It is grotesquely cartoon-like to those not numbed to it by constant daily, hourly repetition. Those grads who were intensely blessed by VPW and who get a glimpse of this anti-idol, and those who promote it here, see all this as deluded to the height of insanity.... kinda like how you think of me.

It is good to keep diligent track of what you know for sure from what you don't know for sure. If there is an abundance of items in the "Sure" bin, that in itself should be cause for self-examination. It is also good to monitor what really thrills you, what occupies a major part of your life's focus. If it isn't in Paul's list of suggestions, another check-up from the neck up might be in order. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. I don't think that includes building and maintaining an anti-idol.

Maintain that curiosity, in spite of the DILIGENT blurring that takes place here. You just saw it in action!

That is a PERFECT example of the blurring I talked about in order to build and maintain the anti-idol theme here.

This is wise! There are great differences that are important to know, but are blurred here. I think this is a side-effect of all the building and maintaining an anti-idol, that eclipses objective and accurately detailed essays on the history of TWI. Few here even try to emulate the objective standards that still exist in professional journalism. I often try to UN-BLUR the differences. TWI circa 1971-1982 was vastly different, and free of the Corps elitism that took over when Craig took over in 1982. Oddly, there is much testimony here from Ralph D about this good phase of unsupervised witnessing of Jesus AND the class that happened on Long Island. That testimony is scattered about, but I am collecting it as I find it in my history folder. TWI-1 was vastly different from TWI-2 !!! I marvel at what was missed by those who's first class was in TWI-2 ! I marvel at what was missed by those who's first class was the Craig Clone Class ! How did people stick with TWI-2 should totally elude me! Except for what I know from experience about God working with SOME individuals on the field at that time, there could be no way. */*/*/* This wisdom to look into the differences is encouraging to me.

Actually, the crazy bus thing goes back even further. The Firesign there in that album were paying a subtle homage to Neal Cassady and Ken Kesey, and the Merry Pranksters' bus 'Further." My use of the phrase in my book was aimed more at the Pranksters, than the Firesign.

We were discussing who wrote this: CHARACTER IS A COMPOSITE OF OUR HABITS Sow a thought reap an action Sow an action reap a habit Sow a habit reap a character Sow a character reap a destiny I found a website called "Quote Investigator" and they found MANY authors of the same ideas, just slightly different wording. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/01/10/watch-your-thoughts/

Well, so much for my I-search skills. In trying to find Emerson's entire text, Google now tells tells me there are two more authors attributed to the same lines, above. One is Alistair Begg and the other is Stephen R. Covey.

YES! "Who is driving the bus?" is the way I put it in my Minimalistic Free Will theory. I find this post of yours to be very helpful, both in my practical everyday life and in my writing on free will. T-Bone, what you posted here (which I slightly highlighted with color above) was absolutely beautiful! I want to thank you and Ralph Waldo Emerson for those EXTREMELY PRACTICAL words above. The way you and he put it was PERFECT for my book on minFW. I will be inserting that text (with a citation) into my text in one way or another. You and Emerson neatly summed up my theory in those few words.

Well, I found the thread and went through pages 12,12,22,23,25 and then finally saw the "torn apart line by line and word by word and exposed for how unobjective it really is" part. What a JOKE ! All you did was act skeptical of each line. That was not debunked at all. You just did a little temper tantrum at each line. ...not even knowing that Research Geek was on your team and reluctant reporting the facts. You have no idea how strong a GreaseSpot poster he and his wife were here. You are busted, Buddy! You read Research Geek and responded to him as if he were me. It was a typical desperate debunking. You lose.

No, it BECAME that after VPW was gone. And it sounds like you don't know who Research Geek was here. He and his wife was on your side here with the heavy research tools. The reason I quoted him is because they both had great credibility here at GreaseSpot. I suspect that, like Raf, he somewhat reluctantly sided with me in reporting that the bad stories about Pike's Peak were not fully accurate. His attitude was that there are better criticisms of VPW than the Pike's Peak rumors.

I don't think you gave me a link; just the idea of Princeton baiting. Where are the less glaring in Research Geek's paper errors noted here?