Mike

Ok, I may have overreacted, but with the mitigation I supplied above to you. The APPARENT contradiction of my post was only that: apparent. But I now totally forget the context. Last night I just did not want to go through the work hassle of another essay to explain the apparent contradiction. You can relate to this right now, because I am going to ask you to work for me. Please give me the two apparently contradictory statements, AND the exact url or page number where I can find them. I can then go see the total context. If you don't do that work for me then I have to do it, and as I said it is not worth that much work for me. If I answer you then, it will only be ignored by everyone or misunderstood or mis-characterized or exaggerated or mocked or jeered or ... whatever. If you do that work, and make it easy for me to review the contradiction then I will try to amswwer, just for your sake. But really? What do you think you will really do with that answer from me? In the most unlikely of circumstances where understand it and accept it, THEN WHAT? Will that change your attitude any toward me? Will that change the next post you ask me about to waste time? Really, these and a thousand other thoughts go through my mind when deciding whether to invest time or DODGE another time waster.

I can understand that. Please note that your posts are long and require a lot of reading. If there are many points of disagreement, then an extensive essay is necessary to handle it all properly. I usually do not have time for that. Another thing I ask you to note is that your posts come within a flurry of many others, also requiring large volumes of work. I get these demands from all sides, all the time. I have 4 and 5 debates or discussions or comments flowing simultaneously. Have you ever handled such a barrage? I think not. Please note that when your post arrives within a huge barrage of negatives and crazy attempts at humor, it gets flavored by them. If you want your posts to be $dang flavored, then keep the company you keep and flavor them that way, regardless of the gentle grammar you use. If you post gentle lamb stuff in amongst a bunch of $dang thowers, then don't be too surprised if I lump you in with their condemnation. Stand apart from them a little in time and a lot in rhetoric (like telling them to cut the crap) then your letters to me will be more receivable. You seem incapable of putting yourself in my shoes. Prove me wrong, please. Take a close look at the $hit storms your post arrive on my screen within.

No, no, no! I do not do the derailing. I post relatively smaller pieces that prove to be MOST inconvenient for your building and maintaining a fictional and distorted Pure Evil picture of VPW for your reading audience at home. The derailing comes in by all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts by you folks that find my simple post most inconvenient. The all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts include jeering, misrepresentations, exaggerations, diagnosis if serious mental diseases, lunacy, selective omissions, and several more. */*/* "You see, Mike, raf intervened because he is a moderator and he was trying to get us back on topic and unfortunately, we (myself included) have a habit of letting you comletely derail a thread when you have been proven in error." Oh, REALLY! And who are the impartial judges of said proofs? Might it be the same crew who belched out said proofs? LoL Such unabashed pompus bull$hit !!! The only close to impartial judge here so far was Raf, several times, and you folks were found wanting on a few points by him. I find you wanting on MANY points in your Kangaroo Proofs from your Kangaroo Courts. If I had the time and a few others on my team we could make big trouble for your said proofs. A few weeks ago I looked at Raf's old thread on Actual Errors in PFAL and thought the first ten were doable. But putting time into that is a luxury. I'm doing it as a mental exercise right now. I may even post some, or dredge up old challenges to said proofs. Of course they will be rejected before they are read. You folks have too much at stake to be proved wrong. You want to go down with this ship, after probably claiming the same for TWI years ago.

I can agree with that. But I do not believe any of those mistakes of his ever made it into the collaterals. I have had Corps people sometimes swear that VPW said or did something in their presence that would have to be wrong. He had sin; he could be very VERY wrong in private Corps settings. But there were other people with spirit working with him in refining it all down to the collaterals.

No, you would have to denounce yourself as my judge. You are off topic; the topic is not me.

Yes, that part of Jesus knocking is future. He is willing to wait on the personal visits. The Christ in us relationship is not trivial; it is superior to the personal part. I loved your link; easy to read aroung the trinity part. Did you see the blue quotes I posted from OMSW. In one Jesus is depicted as pretty busy right now with extreme needs in the body. Please check out what VPW said on this topic in 1985, when no one was listening to him.

Thank you for such a light filled post, compared to the riff-raff who only want to talk about me. I will read your post again and the link as well. I know that Jesus STRONGLY DESIRED to eat that last Passover meal with his apostles. The word used for his strong desire is usually translated "lust." But I also know he was content to WAIT on things as God guided him. Look at how he told Mary to not touch him till all was fulfilled. On the day of the Ascension I know the apostles yearned to see him again personally. I am real happy to wait on the personal stuff. We will have all eternity for us ALL to make Starbucks Dates with him. I am real happy (listening OldSkool) to see all those "peeks" or short visits or semi-personal visits, or what ever God wants to call those blue scriptures. I am very happy for them all. I would love to have him visit me; I could use some clarity of my mission(s).

11. Stop long detailed personal attacks, that require tons of homework to read, defend, and show how stupidly inaccurate they are.

Have you added any entries to your blue scriptures list? If so, I want to update my folder on that. I started that folder 30 years ago, and titled it the Post Pentecost Ministry of Jesus Christ. The first entries were the three accounts in Acts of the Road to Damascus incident. I could change the name to the Post Ascension Ministry of Jesus Christ if it would steer this thread back to the Absent Christ topic.

THAT is the post I was referring to. What do you want to highlight for my immediate attention NOW, that can't wait for tomorrow?

This is it. It was pretty buried

Wait a minute. I think I got the wrong post. I can find it now

Yes, I saw it. And read into it, and saw you were very far off track, and I'd have to do a lot of reading and writing on topics I'm not that interested in dwelling on. LOTS OF homework that I don't want, and I am tired, so I skimmed the rest. I did the same thing the second time because I am tired and planned to have more energy and time tomorrow. WHY? Is there any thing in there that is important that I devote lots of reading and writing time to? I have my budget for time here and I don't have to account for it's details. So what is your important point? Make it fast to read and fast to answer... relatively. Within reason for this late hour, and me being tired.

Rocky did you read my post about a half hour ago with the blue quotes from OMSW? Do you seek Jesus?

Own what? Quote my sin. Again: topic is me I am so tired of this.

I have no behavior here that I am ashamed of. What I am tired of is the topic always being turned to be me, like it is now talking to you. We aren't talking about the absent Christ, but about me. I blame others for that, constantly turning the topic to me. You are doing it right now. I will return talking to you when you want to talk the topic. Bye bye for now.

I kinda promised it to OldSkool, when he begged me to stay here, that I'd check in see if anything new was said. Lots of questions and demands that I answer. Rocky, why didn't you stop them from constantly inviting me back?

No. In other words I am tired of people with rotten hearts who are seething with hate who can't read, or who don't want to read. I am happy with what I posted. It speaks for itself WHEN you read it all, which is difficult with all the baloney smothering it. I am happy with what I posted, and here is another example of what needs to be seen by all. My old Zacchaeus post, slightly edited and cleaned up. Posted April 5, 2003 I agree the TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on both Paul and Victor Paul. We got out of balance on LOTS of other things as well: grace license, guideline law, discipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches. The first century church got out of balance and became RC. I've found a most beautiful chapter in Dr's last book called about Zacchaeus. It’s called “Climbing High to Seek Truth.” It really dispels the myth that Dr’s teaching was bereft of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That DID happen in TVT, but not Dr’s teachings. Here are some of his last words to us, from that last year, and his last book. ************************************* On page 207 he writes: “As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God’s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God’s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.” **** .....too many people (me included) had ended their search for more and more. We were resting on our laurels. That is... we older leader grads (OLG) were resting on our laurels. Oops! I don’t like the looks of THAT acronym. It looks too much like OLD! And, gosh! I hope Ossifer Zix from the Acromyn Enfrocement Police (AEP) doesn’t see this before I have a chance to ski daddle outta here (SDOH). He’s gonna git me fer THIS one fer shir! ************************************* On page 212-213 he writes: “All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus. “Luke 19:3: “And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. “Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus-who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word. “Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people sur-rounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him. “Verse 3: . . . because he was little of stature. “Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus. “Verse 4: And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way. “Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.” ********** Ten times I count the phrase “see Jesus” in these two pages. Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too. ************************************* On pages 214 and 215 he writes: “I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word. Those people who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall (absolutely) be filled. That’s right. What an example of fulfilling this promise from this record in God’s Word.” **** Again, he’s telling us to hunger for the Lord Jesus Christ. ************************************* On pages 221 and 222 he writes: “Jesus Christ is a physician of the soul. A physician is not needed when one is healthy. Jesus Christ comes to seek and to save, to give wholeness to those in spiritual need. He seeks those who are lost-men and women who need the Lord Jesus Christ. He has no problem ex-tending himself to you and to me, because we are the people he came to seek and to save. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus Christ is "able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there. “There is no one so low that the arms of the Almighty are not underneath him. There is no one so high that the arms of the Almighty are not over him. And there is no one other than His Son who can save people. For there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved. “Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation. “What do you need to hear” God's Word. Jesus Christ was that Word, the Living Word, who met Zacchaeus that day in Jericho. And he brought Zacchaeus to the great reality of being a believer, because Jesus was willing to teach him and Zacchaeus was meek to learn. If you want to experience the truth of God's Word, climb high to seek truth. God always has and always will seek out and teach those who are looking to Jesus Christ as their savior and lord.” ************************************* When all these were coming out in print, we OLGs were all on our own trips, all imbalanced in one way or another, and these things slipped right by us (or out of us). I tried to show some of these kinds of things to the CES bulldozers in the early 90’s after they had been blowing the whistle on how the TVT had lost track of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believed them for a few years, until I found a ton of things like these quotes. The reason I believed them at first, in the late 80’s, is because I clearly saw it the TVT, but I hadn’t yet learned the VAST separation, the VAST difference between what got put into print from what went on behind the scenes. This is the case for other things that got out of balance besides the lordship deal. (Exy, this is for you) The print record, and also the tape, has lots of things that we OLGs were learning how to tune out. We would say things in our heads like: “Yeah, yeah, that’s just Dr” or “How many times have I heard THIS before?” or “He doesn’t really mean that. He just mis-spoke, but I’ve a hot line to the Father and I’ll correct it immediately and just forget about it.” Us OLGs have some accounting to do. Hows come we didn’t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print with our help? How’s come we didn’t see that VAST difference? Because we got “Sower-and-Seed”ed that’s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" categories we fit into, when “all nine all the time” is used as the standard which we were shooting for. We got work to do. Thank God for His patience with us.

I suggest you read the whole chapter in OMSW, and read all my posts in this thread. Maybe then they will fit for you. I see no reason I should write it up again, especially only to have it rejected again. I stated when Raf intervened here that I felt the thread was over. Everything that could be said has been said. I even threw in a bonus thread that was before my time here. That summed it all up again.

I posted this, and I think the entire chapter it is in. Maybe I should use blue fonts and pull it up for re-posting? Hopefully this will refresh some memories, assuming it was read when I posted it a few months ago in this thread. "Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation." That's VPW in OMSW p. 222 1985

Oops, not 2 Tim 5 It is in 2 Tim 4.

I see the word "Lord" as referring to either the Father or the Son, depending on context. Jesus often taught of how extremely close he was to the Father. Like Father, like Son, applies most appropriately here. Seated at his Father's right hand, I am sure there are no secrets between them and they communicate thoroughly on everything. I see the word "Lord" to be like "boss" or like "landlord." Jesus is my boss on the physical level, and I know any command from him as my boss, comes straight from his boss, the Father. Words often have several definitions or references. You need to prove the case that this word has only one application, and that is to Jesus. I understand that all power is handed over to Jesus, so if we see anything getting done in God's name, we can bet Jesus is behind it, directly or indirectly. When he appears and is personally present every knee will bow to him and call him Lord, or boss. This is a very large topic to tackle. I will be using the tools I was given to rightly divide the scriptures you quoted, but I can see I wont be trusting you and the tools you will bring to your research table. We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author. I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?

I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions. Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above. I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers. I also note the rarity of such events in everyday life. I also note that not so rare are really stupid fake imaginations of interactions or relationships with Jesus. I love it when God intervenes. I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life. I do see plenty of that in Paul's epistles. I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be reconciled to God. I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.

I spent a lot of time on this thread. in its early pages. Yes, I am now looking at some loose ends that have come up, and not trying to engage in extended sub-topics that I have no interest in. Sorry I don't submit to everyone's desire put me through their mini-inquisitions. Sorry that I disagree with the majority. Your nasty descriptions of me are not counted in my mulling over the ideas we are supposed to be discussing. They just tell me you have run out of material on the topic(s). I have seen a few grads go off the deep end carrying on conversations with Jesus in front of others to show off their tight relationship. You think I've got mental problems? LoL I have seen MANY Christians live in denial of the Ascension, and fumble around with ways to pretend that it didn't really happen. We are supposed to WAIT for that personal presence, when God makes it happen, and we have no guidance to make that personal presence happen now, even privately. We do have Paul's life and epistles to teach us the proper kind of relationship with Jesus and with the Father that is available now.

It looks like I hit a sore spot.