Mike

It might help if you remember that I too was hurt in the twi verbal tradition and all it's horrors. I don't write about it here, because it's settled, and I don't like bringing it up. I've found that mixed in with all that crap in the past was a genuine blessing from God, and He snuck it right past the devil by using the most unlikely of messengers.

Zixar, I'll soon be taking a hike right into this thread's topic, and in fact, I can do that right now. The statement I made was: "you become what you look at." To better inform you on becoming the object that you focus on, the "object" I had in mind was spiritual, not natural. [This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 12:27.]

alfakat, What's YOUR theology on the presence of Jesus Christ? Do you have his phone number?

Here?s how it works: you become what you look at.

The way the human brain works is ALL memories fade. It?s designed that way by God. In this way, after Christ?s Appearing we can eventually forget all of this ?former? life. It?s a promise in the Word. All memories fade. HOWEVER, before they disappear completely, they can be refreshed. Then they?re back, again, only to begin fading again, until the next refresh. The accuracy of the refresh is very crucial. One way a memory is refreshed is by "remembering" it, by bringing it up, and living through it again. It's refreshed by thinking about it, talking about it, and writing about it, and reading about it. ******************************************************** All memories not only fade in amplitude or strength, but they also degrade in accuracy between refreshes. ******************************************************** If the refresh is made from the memory itself, it?s not as accurate later on. If the refresh is made from the original source, it?s MUCH more accurate later on. ******************************************************** So, if the refresh is made from the memory itself, a somewhat faded and somewhat degraded memory, then the refresh strengthens the inaccuracies that were introduced during the degrading. Bringing up old memories can actually distort them slightly. No matter how accurate a memory FEELS, that feeling is no guarantee for accuracy. EVERY slight distortion in memory feels totally accurate. Doing scientific tests on your own memory can be most astounding, when in a controlled environment, a degraded memory is deliberately produced and then confronted. I?ve done this, and the effect leaves the experimenter speechless. Police know this and train to overcome these normal kinds of memory distortions, that ALL humans face as a part of life. Law schools train lawyers to exploit these foibles of humanity. They all know that multiple witnesses of the same event can EASILY have radically different stories as to what happened. Often the sequences are different, one person says ABC happened in that order, and another says it was ACB. When it?s an emotion charged event, then even more distortions are expected. But if the refresh is made from the ORIGINAL SOURCE of the memory, then not only is amplitude refreshed, so is the accuracy. ******************************************************** In my original post, the huge long lying list, I included two words I made up during those 7 years I hung out with the brain scientists. The two words were "memnot" which is a planted false memory, and "memrot" which is a degraded memory. ******************************************************** The reason I urge coming back to the PFAL record is because it?s the ORIGINAL SOURCE of our good memories. The reason I urge we forget the past bad memories is because God says it?s a good idea, and because we all have distorted accuracy in those memories, so they are unworkable, now, after 20 years. There was lots of negative emotion, lots of time, and little to no original source refresh. When a past non-repeatable, and therefore non-accurately refreshable, memory is constantly refreshed under the degrading influence of repeatedly accompanying emotion, then that memory?s accuracy declines faster. ?Venting? is useful in early stages of dealing with trauma, so that things can be sorted out and then eventually settled down. But continually bringing up old bad memories cannot have the same good effects as focusing on the presently available and active relationship and fellowship with the real Jesus Christ. I suggest we turn the thread?s attention to him, because he?s here. . . . [This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 1:58.] [This message was edited by Mike on April 17, 2003 at 2:09.]

Well, I just got home, but am leaving again soon. When I return we can get into some of today?s posts. Later.

Ouch! I used to go to Catholic school, and the memory of knuckles being cracked with rulers fit right in with your flying nun icon.

So far it looks like we have a division of the labor here. Most of you folks want to work on emphasizing the negative aspects of Dr?s actions, which you only have fading memories of, and I?ll work on emphasizing the positives, which we have a record of. That sounds fair. This is somewhat the role RG had suggested I play.

We can get along. Maybe I was in a crabby mood.

mj412, I'm aware of that sight, and mentioned it (not by name) on the "Mike's Drivel" thread. There's another website like it, too. I know both webmasters. There are several reasons I haven't yet gone there. One is that some Grease Spotters have asked me to stay. You are free to start a thread and debate that with them. Why do you want to restrict the informationn flow here, on a site that prides itself in allowing ANYTHING to be said, just about? What's your agenda in squelching what I want to post? I have many other reasons for being here. Your personal preferences are not high on my priority list.

Zixar, That IS a very interesting quote. It?s even more interesting to see the context that fits in. I brings up MANY of the points we?ve been discussing these months. The quote you posted was spoken by Dr just before his last teaching. How accurate Chris Geer?s got these quotes of Dr?s in POP is a large matter. They were not taped, but remembered by him. I have discussed here before why I tend to believe their accuracy. We can discuss that again, too. The POP was brought up in another previous GS discussion, where the focus was Dr?s vocabulary and the way he reserved words to emphasize aspects of the Natural/Factual vs. Spiritual/True. Nice how this brings us BACK TO THREAD TOPIC. Whether or not Dr knew ?the Joy of Serving? was going to be his last teaching was also discussed here before. In this passage below Dr himself discusses it. I some ways these fit right in with Dr?s last words to us that DID get taped. Dr?s admits his flesh flaws in mild general way (surely won?t satisfy many here), as well as his great effort to get the good stuff all in writing, and accurately. This passage below (and Zixar's post) is found in the middle of Part 4 of POP. Again, I want to repeat, that this is NOT part of the tape/print record, it?s what Chris Geer extracted from his memory (and he was good at that kind of thing), AND it fits well with the record Dr did leave in his last three years. This remembered text is pretty rich, but let?s remember that it?s ONLY remembered. Zixar, your posted quote is in the 5th paragraph. ************************************************* ************************************************* ************************************************* from Passing of a Patriarch part 4 Shortly after the dedication everyone else left, and Doctor and I got ready to head over to the service. After checking his notes he handed me his Bible as he had many times through the years, and with tears in his eyes said: "Well, son, this may be the last time. Tomorrow we go home and see if there have been any changes or not. If not then I guess this will he the last. You know, son, there is only one man who could have handled Europe, that's you. In my heart there were only two men who could handle the Presidency, you and Craig. Right now there is only one man who can save the Ministry, that's you. You and Craig are the only ones left that know of. If what I saw the other night in the video is right, he is fading fast. The only hope that is left as far as I can see it is for you to get to Craig somehow and talk to him. I have not been able to." He stopped in the hall of the Suite and looked at me with his intense manner: "I have not been able to stop this Athlete of the Spirit thing. Let me tell you, it may well end up costing us the Ministry. When you forsake God's Word for the imagery of that Word, you lose the power of God. The same is true of research. You never research for research's sake. Anything ahead of God is sin. So many other men and ministries have gone under on this very point through the years. "It took me years to convince our people that Christianity was something to be taken seriously. Effectively, we have lost all that. It is just a game again, and that is not at all what I had in my heart when I taught it originally. I don't know how you will ever get through to Craig and the rest on that one, I really don't. It's like we talked about the other night, whatever a man willingly disciplines himself to is what he loves. Once, this Ministry was a Ministry of the accuracy of God's Word and deliverance for His people; that is why He blessed it arid protected it." This was the fifth time since the Fortieth Anniversary celebration that he had expressed his deep concern to me about this topic. The first was during the Anniversary week immediately following a short presentation by John Lynn. The second was on 25 February, 1983, at 4:30 a.m. in MacClesfield, England. The third was during our talk in Caen, France, on the evening of 26 March, 1984 (which I had thought rather incongruous at the time). The fourth was as we watched the videotape, "Sons of God", the night of 9-10 May, 1985. The fifth was the night of his last teaching of God's Word as we stood in the hall of the ELO Suite just prior to going over to the teaching. He had expressed concerns of where he saw things going if the situation could not be rectified the night that we had watched the video. "If Craig does not come back to the integrity of the Word then before too long he will begin to blame others around him for lacking spiritual perception and will begin to blame the loss of power in the Ministry on others. I've seen it before and I see it in the Word. He will start to lash out wrongly. It will hurt so many. It will sound genuine, but it will not bring deliverance to those who follow what he says. Spiritually they will be empty words. Once God's Word is compromised in any way it no longer is God's true Word. You have error, and error is error. "I have fought this thing all my life. I know what I am talking about. I have seen it in the Church, the mission fields and in other ministries. Paul faced the exact same thing. Outwardly they salsam you and slobber all over you, but without a solid Biblical footing you flounder. He'll be grabbing at straws. I sure wish I could do something for those who will be around him when it happens, if he doesn't get back to the truth of the Word. The further you drift the worse it gets. Look how far Saul went when he stopped lovingly listening to Samuel. "Sure Craig was up against a lot. Right before the inauguration Donnie really pulled in all the strings. Craig was up against a stacked deck; I know that. But, he chose to discipline himself for the Athlete of the Spirit thing and not for the Presidency. Today, the seat of the President is basically vacant. Craig took a portion, the authority, without the responsibility. "I sure don't know why Donnie isn't blessed and thankful; we bought him his doctorate. If Craig had wanted to be a good President he could have; he chose to discipline himself to other things. I know that if he had applied himself honestly he could have gotten to the bottom of things. You did, and you were not in the middle and didn't have the responsibility. I did, and I was forced out. I just know that he could have, too. Why he didn't -- I just don't know why. Son, he basically didn't stick to what I taught. He gave. I sure don't know why." He continued as we walked down the hall: "Chris, if things ever do get back on the Word I don't know if any of those men will be big enough to straighten things back out again. I just don't know. I wish I did. All the work of a lifetime.... To be lost so soon.... At least I wrote a lot or it down so maybe others will rise up in the future. "I want you to remember, I may have made mistakes, but to the best of my ability I never have handled the Word dishonestly or deceitfully. You know that; you lived with me. It just hurts my heart. Paul had the same problem in his day too. "Being here with you has been a blessing. I think you are the first man that I have really been able to talk with like this in a long time, maybe since Uncle Harry died. Last time we were with you was a wonderful vacation for me, this time we haven't had much time for that, have we?" As we left the Suite we curtailed discussions of the Ministry and we chatted, making small talk. We got into the car and drove over so that he could teach God's Word for the last time in his life. His remark before going out to teach was so typical, "Well, this is the finals this time, isn't it?"

HELP! HELP! THERe's sharks in these waters!

Larry, He was a ball of fire, smart fire, and when he walked with God he did great good. When he walked with satan he did great bad. It's that way with all of the extremes of the human bell curve. He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted. If these prodigies don?t burn out in adolescence or their early twenties then they go on to do either great good or evil with their natural abilities, usually more evil except more and more subtle so as to hide it. Dr, spent an inordinate amount of time in the good side compared to other members of his physical class, and some of us benefited greatly... for a while. For those of us who personally witnessed the former, the later is less painful. For those of us OLGs who personally witnessed the former, for those of us who witnessed the great good Dr did when he walked with God, our first responsibility is to help our grad brothers and sisters with that damage that did occur. And that can only occur by mastering that great good in its final form: the PFAL books. We thought we had mastered the stuff and then we really belly flopped in the late 80's. Most are still recovering up to zero level, but none have become that greatness. Most of the damage I see is what the Corps elitism did on the field. Why are they hiding from this debate? There are OLGs in the GS community who are conspicuously absent in these debates. There are OLGs who have lots to contribute to the healing and the proper healing at that, where God?s blessings through Dr?s ministry aren?t trampled. For those of us who saw the former, Dr?s great ability to bless, it's our responsibility to heal the friendly fire damage that occurred in the war that was won by God successfully injecting His Word into thousands of bookshelves around the world. Hey OLGs, let?s put those dust covered books back into our hands and hearts! ************************************** Exy, I?m willing to answer you at whatever speed and volume you want. Just let me know. I have to do taxes today and there are about 5 more hours to go, and then we can resume this at your request. ************************************** . I saw a lot of people very blessed with PFAL for about ten solid years. That could be streched out (for me) to about 15 years, as I moved around the country a few times. Long ago I heard from some unknown source (hence low surety level) that the Word never lasted more than ten years in any one city, in the first century. Anyone ever hear this? In the first century, the collapse didn?t happen at the same time in every city (ditto for twi meltdown), nor in the same way. So the cities were staggered in time, so the whole church went on for some 40 years? I saw this stuff over 20 years ago, so my memory doesn?t include where I got it from. Part of Pawtucket?s Principle is knowing WHERE you were taught each fundamental belief. Or at least knowing where the parts came from from which you assembled the belief. And knowing from which authority the assembly was verified as consistent and sound. .....yyyaaaAAAANNNN! Sirguessalot, now you?re making ME yawn! Well no one ever said that PawPrin exercises area easy. They?re a lot of work! But there?s a big payoff too. [This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 12:54.] [This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 14:18.] [This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 15:35.]

Zixar, Moses, David, Saul, etc etc were trained by God too. Solomon given total wisdom. And let's not forget Adam's perfectly "renewed" mind. Trained by God.

Larry, It's not thugery I'm interested in. Not at all. When I saw Corpsmen imitating Dr's temper and mannerisms I could puke. I saw THAT thugery a lot. Even in some women. Terrible imitations they all were. Dr had earned my respect, but the Corps demanded it. I see those same traits in some here; it?s very human. So how many now have the knee jerk reaction to that by saying ?VPW trained those Corps to behave that way.? To which, I respond ?Since it?s ALL a matter of training, then who trained VPW? Why not track him or them down? Why is it that the buck stops with Dr? Is it just that he?s a more convenient target? This thread?s aim is to remind and enrich our understanding of the differences between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. If there was EVER a time or topic to apply this verse, this is it: ?For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.? One of the adversary?s greatest tricks is to get people focused on flesh, thinking that is their enemy. Not only does this error fuel fire for feuds for generations, it also drives all the law oriented religions with pressures, and all the license religions with pleasures. The flesh is not where we find our TRUE enemies, just victims. This flesh enemy distraction allows the adversary to operate unobstructed behind the scenes. By focusing mental energy on the flesh, we remain weak and unable to counter him. Five senses wise, he?s smarter than spiritually unassisted humans. To be spiritually smart we need to focus on God, His, Word, and His Son, not who?s a thug or not. THAT?s a great way to become a thug yourself, by thinking about it a lot. Besides tricking us to focus on flesh, and even better ploy of the adversary is to get us to fight each other?s flesh. There are better things to focus on and become. Christ Jesus for one.

Todd, Well at least you're thinking about it, the WBTB. When you think that people bet their life on it, shouldn't they at least have it well thought through? Writing it out is a whole other matter, but I'd think everyone would want to think it through real carefully at least once in their adult lifetime. I ran into it often in NYC street witnessing and on college campuses. It took twice as long for me to solve WBTB for my life as it took me to solve the mirror riddle.

Todd, I just saw that thread a little while ago and thought I was in Superman's Bizarro World. I applied the idea I shared above in not barging. I'm tired, and just started on filling out my tax forms. The old 1040 kinda kills the kicks of komedy. If I locate the spot and e-mail you the coordinates, would you like try it out the WBTB according to P'sP? Or I could paste it here for you.

Todd, Have you noticed how my question "Why believe the Bible?" has gone untouched? Do you want to touch it and apply Pawtucket's Principle?

Sirguessalot, That?s a good question. One gross reason is time, but in the finer analysis I can always find time if other factors weren?t also present. One is because I am very aware of the disturbance I?ve ?caused? here, and I want to minimize that. If I go to another thread, I have to think if that move is going to cause more trouble than the good I think I can deliver. I don?t want to disturb the peace there. Plus I think it?s only fair to let people talk about me or my favorite topics without my interference. I can certainly read such threads, but again time is scarce often. Once in a while I do visit, but I try and keep it short. Once in a while I?ve felt like I blended in as friends, which I like. This may seem strange but in a way I?ve bonded with this place and a lot of people. Even with people who give me a hard time here, I easily remember my parents and siblings getting into it often, but always remembering the limit of love in the family. A handful of people here I know from long ago, and I really have been reading since Waydale?s beginnings. I knew this place, and some of the more prolific posters LONG before I ever started posting. I?ve paid a high price for believing what I believe, and I?m very much used to people hating me for it. I try to make the best of the situation, and here I?m the most successful. At least I get a lot of conversation and stimulating thought, and unlike my guesses about splinter groups, I don't get kicked out. Kicked, yes, but not kicked OUT. This is the best large scale PFAL grad social scene I know of, as I?ve mentioned before, so I do appreciate it. I want to behave myself the best I can, considering the tradition busting bombshells I tend to bring in. It?s easy for me to intend to visit a thread, but those already there can understandably see it as me barging in. There is a thread on the Open Forum about quitting this site, and I don't go there because I don't even want to think about quitting here. There is a bonding process that takes place. It's hard to imagine quitting, even though I've offered Paw to bow out gracefully if there's a problem he sees with me staying. I do like to talk about other things and have done it a bit, but the amount of things that have been discovered in the PFAL record overwhelms my small talk. As time goes by, and people see that my doctrine is only a tradition threat and not a practical threat, and that it promotes greater appreciation for and adherence to the original Bible, it?s Author and His Son, then I think I?ll be more welcome on other threads. In the threads that I start, at least I know that everyone volunteers to come in and see my posts, and I haven?t shoved anything in anyone?s faces. As for the boo?s, I?m used to them; and to me getting the hook, I?d say this stage is big enough for all of us. . . [This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 2:40.]

Ah come on Jesse Joe, why go in that direction? Can't you see I'm not into hurting people? What I've seen heals people? Weren't you at one time very blessed in PFAL? It's THAT genuine stuff that's been carefully weeded out that I'm trying to get into. I KNOW things went wrong, so why not lets try to make them go right? That's all I'm tring to get into. Can't we make a truce on that?

You know, we?ve been back and forth a few hundred times on these things about Dr?s character. I?ve stated my stand, and I?ve been explaining it a lot and will be doing more soon. But you all know by now the thrust of my posts, and you know I?ll be heading there soon. But really! What would you rather talk about, the Return of Christ or the return of some bad memories? Let?s steer this thread in the direction of some neat things on our relationship with Christ, and how we can become him. It?s not becoming him for us to descend from the spiritual understanding we put so much work into. There are MANY big breakthroughs in understanding for us to enjoy. Surely I?ve delivered on my promise to deliver data, new data, and lost data. There?s more, much more. When the ministry was melting down and many top leaders were keeping totally quiet about it, I was often outraged at one of the strategies they used to dodge my questions. I had a legitimate reason for knowing what was happening, yet they stonewalled me with illegitimate dodges. One of the dodges they used, that was the hardest for me to refute was a certain scripture. It took years to see around this dodge, but when I finally did I realized the scripture was for everyday living, with the personality clashes that occur when people live and work together. What was happening at that time was spiritually catastrophic, the ministry meltdown, and this verse was quite impractical. But for the non-catastrophic situation here, the normal personality clashes that occur when people make up a cyber community together, I think this passage of scripture is a legitimate standard that we can live up to. Now some might say that my appearance here is catastrophic, but even THAT?S been thrashed about in at least 3 threads, and very long ones at that. So, just for those of you that still believe the Bible (I do), and even those that don?t, this scripture I propose we ponder a bit from time to time. Philippians 4:5-8 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand [in us]. Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. I still have lots of stuff that fits in these categories to post.

Shaz, So what else is new?

I kinda thought this line of talk may get me tied up in knots. If ONLY I had studied Houdini more!

Sirguessalot, Thank you VERY much. I appreciate your view. It's pretty much how I felt before I felt challenged enough, that I had missed something, to come back to PFAL again. Besides, like I said to Rafael just now, and to JerryB last week, the movie isn't over yet. I appreciate your efforts to sit through this much.

Oh Rafael! When I said ?I?ve simply learned to handle them differently.? and ?I used to take the perspective you have now...? I had something in mind you seemed to miss. I meant that your perspective of ?Let?s deal with these AEs before blasting off? was dealt with by me all throughout the 70?s and 80?s. I saw the pattern of how easy it was, without mastery, to think that something was an error of Dr?s, while it was only an error in my perception of what was written. I saw the pattern of how AEs clear up with time, and coupled with other observations (mentioned), my confidence level rose to sufficient heights that I lowered the priority on AE work. I simply saw that the real action was elsewhere. My use of the word ?yet? has to do with how you may feel after more data is brought in.