Mike

I wonder what the age distribution in Jesus' 12 apostles was. Similarly for the about 500 disciples he eventually got. Seems like they all were the hippie types, who could kinda drop everything and tour with Jesus like he was Jerry Garcia. Hmmm, I'd estimate the age distribution to be about mid to late teens and into the twenties. That Jesus would know them cult tactics, too, I guess.

I'd say in the Long Island area we were late teens to mid twenties circa 1975. That was the hump of the bell curve, but there were a few older and a few younger.

God’s Budget and Double Doors On the Scarcity of Miracles Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders? I saw lots of signs and wonders in the early 1970s, some that benefitted me and some benefitting others, and maybe even a miracle or two. This was on Long Island, just across a bridge from the Groovy Christians at Rye, NY. The Word was hot then, and BOTH Jesus Christ and the class were talked up bigtime. It was a genuine work of God. The archives here have a couple of posts from Ralph D verifying this, as he too was in the middle of it all. This is undeniable. But it is equally undeniable that NOT as many mighty signs, miracles, and wonders were being seen as the Seventies ended. Not coincidentally, by 1982 the Corps had taken over and was supervising most field work. In my most recent theory on this, the over-supervising and stifling influence of the Corps is characterizes lots of how TWI-1 phased out and TWI-2 phased in. I think we have all agreed here, that since 1986, the higher up in leadership that you look, the less likelihood there is of seeing any signs, miracles, and wonders coming from their hands. Most of what power I saw in the Seventies was associated with regular believers witnessing, running classes, under-shepherding new people, and splitting twigs. That activity was hotter than hot on Long Island then, but when I moved to HQ in 1976 the local movement of the Word in New Knoxville was down to absolute zero. That was one of the reasons I left there two years later. I can hardly imagine the insularity and passage of 4 decades has only made that worse for the long-term residents at HQ. Because I had specialized in witnessing back on Long Island, I was able to sign up two locals in the New Knoxville area, and it was considered phenomenal by some on staff. I had to send my sign-ups to Sidney, though, for fellowship and under-shepherding. Things were pretty dead in town, spiritually. */*/* But there is much more to the scarcity of miracles that I want to talk about here, than the ineptness of TWI. I sense the scarcity of miracles is universal, almost regardless of people, and as if it were a law of some sort, with few exceptions. */*/* I have told this story once, but it bears repeating here. Back in the day, on Long Island we had a wonderful new brother added to our Branch one day, pseudo-named George. He was a super nice guy, always fun and laughing, and a real joy to be around. He was meek and joined in on witnessing very well. He was not all messed up and straining to be positive and renew his mind; he HAD it! He seemed to be pretty well adjusted BEFORE taking the class, and just jumped in right away as a renewed mind believer. I wish I had stayed there longer to get to know him better, and regret that I’ve been unable to find him. George had one good arm and his other was completely withered from birth. A tiny outline of a baby’s hand with some fingers could be seen protruding a tiny bit from his shoulder. He could hide it easily with a shirt, but in the Summertime we could often plainly see it. He didn’t try to hide it, and seemed to be quite skilled at living without the arm. He was active and got around well; an unforgettable guy. When we would run a PFAL class, just EVERYONE held their breath during the part about the man with the withered hand. We all wanted to see George miraculously healed. I think he went WoW or maybe in the Corps, but I’m not sure. But I do know for sure, that if George had ever gotten that new arm build by a miracle, I would CERTAINLY have heard about it from all my old Long Island friends. Word about George would have traveled fast, fast, fast. I think there are still a dozen of us still alive and friends on Facebook. We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen. */*/* I have thought long and hard about this scarcity of miracles. One hunch is that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet. But that is ONLY PART of my thinking. The scarcity of miracles is universal, and not just in the failed TWI. So, the question then becomes, why haven’t ANY groups of Christians in modern times gotten the same results that we see in Acts of the Apostles? But then, looking closer at Acts, we can see the abundance of miracles there was in spurts (like Long Island?), and that most of the time, they too experienced the same scarcity of miracles. We do see Paul sprung from jail once by a miraculous earthquake, and then some fast acting on revelation by Paul. But then how many times later was Paul NOT sprung from jail? And then, how many of the Apostles eventually died? All of them died. Miracles were rare for them too. I am thinking out loud here. Still working on all this. At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders. I have also noticed that many here are very much against the idea of God having any limitations. This thread is an opportunity for possibly thinking that through in more detail. */*/*/* God uses angels to do a lot of things. There is an interesting account in the OT about this in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel was praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time, like weeks. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some ‘big guy’ out there.” That was my Super Abbreviated Version; below is the NIV: */*/*/* Daniel Chapter 10 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision. At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over. On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude. I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground. A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling. Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.” While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.” Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.” When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.” So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.” */*/* Now try not to be distracted by the great example of the Great Principle that is laid out in the open here in Daniel 10, and PLEASE focus on the red fonts that show how God was limited. God’s angels were obviously limited in that chapter, and they struggled to prevail. It looks like they were on a budget that just barely worked. From this and many other scriptures (forthcoming), I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited His use of His power for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework. I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget. WHY it works this way I do not know. It just seems to be implied to be the case in the scriptures. I think this maybe is what VPW was often referring to when he said the God did things “legally” and not just willy-nilly. I will be soon bringing out more scriptures that gave me this hunch many years ago. Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this. I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me. The spiritual battles in the OT are often ones of God just barely winning, but often with an abundance of cleverness and foresight. God knew beforehand how big to set His budget so that He could rescue the broken world from the devil. God’s budget is tight; tight enough to make it impossible for the adversary to rule HIS OWN WORLD very efficiently. Not knowing the future, the adversary wastes his budget on failed attempts to thwart God. */*/*/* Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well. Again, from a bunch of scriptures (forthcoming) I have seen situations in the Scriptures that I describe as “Double Doors.” That mean when God opens the door between the spiritual and physical for an intervention, He must open a corresponding door to the adversary as well. Otherwise the doors are shut tight, like the way we see an angel in Genesis that blocks and guards Eden and the Tree of Live. The doors open at just the right time, and then soon shut. I first noted this “Double Door” phenomenon in the Road to Damascus incident when Paul was converted. God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul. Like the limitations put on him in the Book of Job, the devil is only successful in blinding Paul. This blinding is against God’s will, but the door was then shut, so God directed Paul and Ananias to get together for healing later. I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way. I am sure many tangential topics will be included.

Thanks, again, Raf. ...even for the parts I would disagree with, because I saved them for vacation reading, on the beach under a shade umbrella. You might someday like to hear about the parts I agreed with. I feel welcome to return, hearing it from you. So thanks, specifically, for that also. Because I am SO not a troller, I'm seriously considering setting up one thread in the Doctrinal Dungeon where I can discuss one main topic, and if I see things in “About the Way” that I want to take a tangential swerve into, I’ll do that, and keep it in that one Doctrinal thread. That way I don’t stimulate a derailment to any of those threads in About the Way. What do you think of that? I was going to do this very thing in that “Jumping to Concussions…” thread, but it didn’t work for a few semi-forgotten reasons, but one was the thread was in the wrong location. I think it may work better in Doctrinal. AND, Raf, I really would like to discuss lots of the details in your post. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at some of the positions I have evolved into over the years. */*/* Bolshevik, more fun vacation reading for me would be any details you have to your Tower of Babel and SIT idea. I often tinker with ideas to better understand what Babel is all about, but I never did much systematic searching on it, compared to what I did with SIT.

Well, I do not like to start conflicts, and I do things to calm things down often. Rocky and Charity, I agree with you on the I statements. I have heard of that, and even try to use it. It takes practice. I'm thinking of taking a GreaseSpot vacation. I have had to do that with Facebook in the past when things would get under my skin and interest turns to preoccupation or even obsession. Maybe I'll take a retreat in the Doctrinal section and work on one thread there, and let the other threads calm down.

Translation: one total damnable LIE ! You owe me an apology. You got it 100% wrong. I walked on their eggshells and made friends with the admins of those forums. We may do things in the future. Read my report to OlkSkool on it above. The timestamps just may prove my point, that you glossed over my more detailed description of it, in favor of your biased speculation. Why do you speculate with such a heavy bias? Is that how you do Biblical research? Shooting from the hip? I have a few other big beefs with your misrepresentations. I was the one who told the stories of VPW being a hoodlum in High School, and standing on his motorcycle blasting through town. You dutifully reported on that several times here. But you conveniently left out the punch line, why I told those stories! Why my HQ co-worker told those stories to me. You left that part out. Was it intentional? Are you going to go back to the "originals" to find out what my punch line for those stories was? What my co-worker's punch line was? Why she told me those stories? You are a not a good historian here. You intentionally misrepresent things. You slant things with your heavy bias.

What a big lie! If you read what I posted, I only saw a few posted gently deleted. I contacted the admins and made friends for future negotiations. I am making friends with more and more of them. WW, shame on you !!

EVERY thread? Why do you exaggerate that way?

No, LoL. But I have seen two or three of my very mild posts deleted for reasons of simple non-conformity. Not all are that strict. I have had friendly conversations in PMs with lots of the admins, and respected their wishes, keeping doors open for future negotiations. */*/*/* I want to thank you for your recent thread of 4 hours ago, "Promised Relief: Broken Promises from the Way International." I didn't want to post on it and "mess it up." That was a very heartfelt post. It looks like others are keeping a respectful distance like I did. The reason I am thanking you for it is because I am able to say I agree with you of your TWI-2 and TWI-3 assessments. I often wish we could celebrate the things we agree on. I have to admit that TWI-1 had its share of dark spots, but I was able to avoid them for all of the 70s, and a little into the 80s. My stint at HQ was 1976-78, and though I learned a lot of facts and made a couple of close friends, I regard it as a mild dark spot in my ministry life. It had a few stars. I liked Uncle Harry a lot, but VPW was mostly out of the picture for me then, and Corps elitism was on the rise. I was not allowed to date a girl in the 7th Corps in residence at HQ circa 1978 because I was not Corps. Moving the Word there sucked. I signed up two locals to take the class, hippie types, but they had to get their nourishment in Sidney. HQ was a pretty depressing place for me. I missed the action of lots of new people joyously learning that God was good for the first time. But in the mid 80s I saw TWI-2 quickly descend into a stinky and incompetent cult with many dark spots surrounding star Corps leaders. There were a few light spots in TWI also. I remember a happy observation circa 1986, for the first time, of a ministry reverend recommending to a friend that I signed up for the class go to AA and/or find professional help. I thought that was wise, and I learned a lot about AA in supporting my friend's decision to fight alcoholism with more than prayer and positive confessions. Jesus once referred to some extreme conditions requiring much "prayer and fasting" where I understand fasting means to hear and do EXACTLY what God gives in revelation for bringing to pass a true healing. I don't remember if you participated on the AA thread that happened here a year or so ago. You might like it if unfamiliar with it. I can understand better now from your new threade, and I cannot blame you for being suspicious of TWI-1 and that VPW's work can't be trusted. You are not the first person here that I have had these thoughts of sympathetic understanding for. It seems to often be the case that the most bitter people here at GSC came in after VPW's death. I could be wrong, but I keep seeing anecdotal evidence to that, and I know for sure the ministry started seriously wobbling before VPW's death. He knew it was going down and did some last minute things to mitigate things, but it was too late. But the nosedive that TWI-2 did in 1986 was extreme, and anyone who took the class after 1986, either hit one of those rare light spots in the marble cake, or they were headed for lot of trouble as TWI-2 got worse and worse. I know a lot less about TWI-3, but at least they seem too have contained the bad stuff, and made it possible for a milder TWI-4 to emerge. I wish that you and others who came in could have another chance to see the good that was once there, but I know I can't rush that or make it happen in any way. You gave me reason to remember more to pray for people here, and for grads anywhere who were robbed by TWI.

There are not other places to post. GreaseSpot is famous for free speech; I am a prime example. Most other grad sites do not allow much discussion. They are more like advertisements without the free speech passion. Now GSC is very much like an advertisement for the anti-idol, but it holds free speech higher. That is commendable in itself. Discussion was greatly needed 20 years ago. GreaseSpot is large and as such can field lots of news from the whole set of grads out there. I first came to GreaseSpot for ministry new, myself. I was not a poster, just lurking and reading. I think there are lots of proPFAL readers of GreaseSpot still. They are loath to post because they see the treatment I get and they see the overblown negativity. There are lots of reasons I came here; literally I was kidnapped here. Long story. As to my victimization, it sounds like you don't read or take note of the large number of posts that are outrageously crude, even into the scatological. You seem to ignore the posts that are real attacks and have nothing to do with the exchange of opinions. Look at how I answered T-Bone on this. If you cant see the overt attacks and mockery then you are blind or just not paying attention.

Almost caught up. I am saying, just like Charity said, that in TWI-1 we were not taught to think "absent Christ" and it only came up once in the class, and then in that corresponding one spot in the book. I did not hear "absent Christ" in the new class best of my memory. I want to check my notes on that and ask others, though. Has anyone read the "TWI Articles" for this topic? I vaguely remember someone mentioning that. But I am getting tired. Nap time soon.

Well, I caught up with everyone's responses due them.

Ok, it wasn't from the film class or collaterals

YES! Staying silent on the false criticisms. I really should get disciplined to just stamp "off topic" when another wants to merely talk about me.

I can agree with you there because I know the timing is deep within TWI-3.

I know. Raf and I go way back.

This sounds a lot more like the GreaseSpot of 20 years ago but not today. I know that there are other forums here and other posters that focus away from About the Way. Back then there were many more points of view BEING POSTED. There were at least a hundred ACTIVE posters then in the big forum, About the Way. The active posters now are few in number, usually well under 10, and more like 6 or 7 in About the Way. Their histories are almost all Corps and usually from TWI-2 and later.

No offense taken; no surprise either. I try to isolate your limited endorsement to this one issue, best I can.

Thanks. That helps prove a point I have made, and from both angles. Absent was not emphasized, and seeking Jesus was emphasized. It was in the TVTs and the Corps that the absent christ was exaggerated. John Lynn, in the late 80s and thru the 90s, talked about about busting this absent Christ TVT a lot, and his whole life was Corps.

The churches in the Book of Revelation are the church of the bride that resumes after we are gone. That is the best I understand that book. I am not in a hurry to tackle it deeper now. When I am ready it will be with other researchers who apply the same tools and attitudes I was taught. If you have better, you are too late to save me with it. I locked into the PFAL perspective in 1998. I wanted then to stop searching and start far more disciplining my life to God's Word and His love, as He has led me to it, which was clearly PFAL. show me your ministries fruits.

I did that in a minor way with that chapter on seeking Jesus in OMSW. Did you read it yet. It has blue fonts.

You forgot: it is only the collaterals I revere, and they are the product of many people with spirit.

No, there are real personal attacks sprinkled in with the honest disagreements. Go back and look. Maybe you only read your own posts. I challenge you (along with you folks at home) to go back and read this whole thread and look for the personal attacks against me. Just look at the evidence instead of pulling it up from inattentive memory.

How does one know him and not just about him? And if it is the case that the knowing about him comes from an accurate understanding of God's Word, then would the use of the word "just" (synonymous with "merely") be uncalled for? I can see saying that knowing about Jesus from another man COULD be lacking in some way, but not if it was the perfect knowing about him that God intends when He talks about him. What could you trust more than God's own words ABOUT Jesus? Can you trust your experiences with Jesus that much? Could you trust your memory of experiences with Jesus that much? See where we are? We are back at 2 Peter. Charity, are you one of those people who know Jesus directly, that is, in a way that is above or greater than knowing about him from the written Word of God?

Yeah there's the bull$dang quality of proof that reigns here. Even if you had a water tight proof, it would demonstrate your desperation in trying to obfuscate what I post that is most inconvenient to your anti-idol. Actually it is a proof that I haven't read your list since you first posted it, several weeks ago, and I merely transposed the colors in mind. Consider that another one of your proofs shown to be baloney.