Mike

What's all this brew ha ha?

Hopeful, Don't you think it would be a good thing to ponder the questions I asked you? I asked them for a reason. These are things we should have pondered when we first read the Bible. Don't you think you'd have a better grasp on this difficult subject if those two questions I asked you were thoroughly understood?

Hopeful, Here?s a simpler answer to your question. I would NOT assume it?s the girl?s fault. I would NOT assume she was in the sexual fast lane.

Hopeful, I'm not good at discussing hypothetical situations. There?s too may variables to keep track of. If you were such a person, my heart would go out to you, bigtime. You wouldn?t have to be my DNA sister for me to cry with you. I have dealt with this kind of question before here. I?ll repeat here now, that if such a person approached me in a public forum like this, I?d say that I can help, but it?s got to be in private. I don?t believe that endless venting in public will be healing, so I would insist on private discussion first. Then I?d say something like I did say to a few months ago to Exy. It?s on the ?Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!? thread, and was posted January 06, 2003 12:28 January 06, 2003 13:28. There were some misunderstandings associated with that post, so you might want to read the follow-ups that helped clear some glitches away. Hopeful, if you were in Uriah?s family, and you knew of David?s sin. How would you instruct your family to still respect the man God had chosen to be king? This is similar to the question you asked me. Have you ever thought these kinds of things through? What if you were related to one of the believers that Saul had killed? How would you warm up to that apostle Paul a few years later? These questions are not easy to answer. The adversary has made it so. Please, Hopeful, give me an answer to how YOU?D handle the same kind of hypothetical you handed me.

Hi Seaspray, Fancy meeting you here. *************************************** Cool Waters, I do not apologize for lashing out at those who deliberately misconstrue me. If you have come to see the huge error you made in misrepresenting my position, the error that occurred right at the beginning of that long letter that ended so magically, you might try breaking the apology ice first. If not, I?ll have to assume you deliberately want to misconstrue me. If you think GSers are exhibiting thorough research techniques, I disagree. There?s a ton of new data that no one has thought about in years. That?s what I?m here for, to bring this data to the forefront. All I get is resistance from those who are less informed here. I am thankful to Paw, because although he does NOT share my beliefs, yet he still extends his welcome to me anyway. There are a few others here who are polite like him. I think they know I?m not talking about them when I make a global GS pronouncement. I know I don?t need to apologize to them. I saw MUCH good come from early TWI and I still see it coming from PFAL. When you get the emotional blinders off, you may come to see what you?re missing now. I will then accept your apology. ******************************* That said, I?d like to say something to the parents of young children and teenagers. I?ve noticed that as a general rule, those who were loose and sexually permissive during the 70?s preAIDS era, are often the MOST diligent to quantify and demand obedience to all sorts of stringent new attitudes about sex. I think this is good and proper. Parents who experienced the 70?s KNOW how ruthless young men can be towards their young daughter, and these parents are doing the right thing in protecting their precious gift from God. These boomer parents of young boys KNOW what sexual monsters they can become when not in the house. These parents must watch the environment for sexual predators in protecting their family, and my hat is off to you all. On this GS discussion board lots of past events from the sexually loose 70?s come up. I can see you parents having lots of buttons pushed by my posts. Please believe me that there is NOWHERE in my intentions a desire to go back to THAT part of the good old days. I have considered leaving this board several times as I see my motives in the sexual areas misconstrued. I feel greatly for the formerly fast lane parents who want their children to grow up as far from the fast lane, as far from the sex freeway itself, as possible. Far from being a possible threat to parents here, I would like to cheer them on in the raising of children. I have no experience in this work, but I see it?s got to be awesomely difficult. If my posting has made your job more difficult, I sincerely apologize. That has never been my intention. I?ve seen their task, how difficult it must be to shield youngsters from all the sexual nightmares out there. Some parents here have not just read about how crazy sex can get, they?ve BEEN there in the TWI sexual fracas. I can see how it?s necessary for you to squelch any voice around your kids, who in any way, might be promoting the sex liberty problems of the not-so-good old days. Now I?m NOT promoting sexual liberty as a part of coming back to PFAL at all, NOT ONE BIT AT ALL. But I also understand how my posts LOOK LIKE THAT at times to diligent parents on the lookout for potential threats to their young treasures. I want to adjust the way we do things here so that parents need not be alarmed. I?m STILL considering leaving this board due to the antagonism my posts must be causing parents. As I posted last night, no matter what I do about format changes, my posting frequency, or at least the daytime part of it, will be coming down greatly. If this is a relief to parents, great. If more relief is needed, I?m open to discussion on this. [This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 15:50.]

Cool Waters, You wrote: "Mike, so far nearly everybody is getting the same thing from reading you." If this were someone else?s thread, I?d just back off at a majority vote like that. But this is my thread, and I don't care what the vote is. I've seen some glaring mischaracterizations of me and what I say here, and I know my own intentions, having very carefully selected them 5 years ago. I knew this stand was going to be unpopular, so that drove me to REALLY think it through, a lot more than you do with your fundamental paradigms, I?ll bet. One reason that a large number of people are reading me wrong is because they are emotional and angry with me. And I don't blame many of them them. I think they'll calm down as they eventually see I'm not going to do anyone harm. If I were in their shoes I'd be emotional too. But then there are a few who (I think) deliberately misconstrue what I say. Why would they do that? Two reasons: #1. to deflect and derail my train of thought. #2. to stoke my fires and built up my steam pressure so that I blow a gasket. Then there are the slightly less sadistic among you who want to mitigate #2 by only stoking me to the point of me venting steam. Then they can play PopPsychologist of the Internet Airwaves, like Dr Laura, and get me to switch my one track mind off to their special spur truth track with a personalized "t" in truth. This must be obvious to the non-posting readers out there who are following this soap opera from hour to hour. I'll betcha you readin folks, whether your proPFAL or con, are having a ball watching all this! Well, I've got some sad news for the popcorn industry, sirguessalot, the rainy season is ending soon in San Diego. That means I'll be able to work more and pay the bills I didn't pay this recent winter because I was posting so much these 4 months. So, this means I'll be cutting back on the frequency of these food fights. I have an idea how we might do it though. I want to suggest a change in format. Right now, on my threads ONLY, there's another repeating pattern happening. That makes the third lately, first being the "fake friend" routine, and then the above deliberate misconstruals that bring in so many of the fans the carneasadage. Oh yeah, I almost forgot! It's the one that happens so often that it was ubiquitously hidden there from memory for a bit. It's the Colombo Quiz, like what WordWolf did, then Steve Lortz, and now maybe? Schwaigers.... we'll see. Steve Lortz got extra credit for combining several techniques in his "Let's be friends, Mike. Hey! Watch me pull a rabbit out of your hat, Mike. Oops! It's a devil spirit! Sorry about that. Maybe you could subscribe to my Bible newsletter and we could take care of that little critter for you." So there's all these repeating cycles, and I think we all need to slow down a little, just to think of some different approaches. Like here's how my threads go: I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. I post a piece of data, and some discussion. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. Sex,copyrights,etc, slinging from every conceivable angle. ................and so on and so on. . . . . So here's the suggested change in format. I do better when discussing something with only one person at a time. When I'd go to those trinity churches and discuss the Bible with them, they'd all try to argue at once against everything I said. In the more civil places, they eventually calmed down and let one person speak for them. It's the same way with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. If they come to the door and I have time to talk, we quickly establish which one is going to be the spokesman. I think we've reached that point here. When the rains end I'll have less time, the posting frequency won't be so breakneck, and we'll all have more of it to think up better things than "dumbass." If you folks picked a spokesman, and you're reading on the sidelines, you could wait for a "time out" where no one's posting for a few days, before posting your two cents. OR, better yet, you could e-mail or private post to the spokesman, some tips and strategies. OR, you could post them in similarly named side-threads where a public discussion can cruise parallel through the charts with the spokesman's discussion thread. ******************************** Cool Waters, Back to your letter. Most of the above drifted away from being directly addressed to you, to being addressed to frequent "@mike" posters in general. Sorry about that. And also, I'm sorry I can't do the private topic thing any more for time reasons. As the rainy season ends and time gets scarce, I don't want to have a third "mailbox" to check every day. I mentioned to you that spreading myself thin was possible, and I now see it's more than that, it's definite. This rainy season thing is very predictable here. I've done this business for 23 years now, and I know what's coming in the next week or so. So, back to your post. You wrote two similar things, and this is one: "Maybe you need to try another read...in a few days...after thinking about something totally different." This is another: "Have you ever considered that trying to work within the framework of PFAL has an underlying flaw?" I'll answer the second first, and that will hopefully answer the first, second. Yes, of course I've considered PFAL to be flawed in various ways and at various times. During those times I was thinking from within the framework, the paradigm, of various non-PFAL approaches. Here's some more detail to this answer I'm giving. From 1972 to 1985 I often thought about that, and explored other frameworks briefly. Like the trinity. I also visited RC priests, and science circles. In 1985, after Dr's death, like the next day after he died, I said to myself that it was time too re-think the whole thing, and explore other frameworks, only this time it was to be MORE than briefly. I had held off doing this out of respect to him, but a few years before he died I knew I'd be doing it eventually. It's my nature. I was trained to think this way. From 1972-85 I often visited trinitarians, even at their churches and fellowships. This was a small part of my ?brief? looking into of other frameworks, but it was about a hundred more times the intensity that most other grads shopped around at that time. I also shopped around from 1985-98. In 1987, there was almost no info flowing from leadership, but within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not) to be a part of. With relatively no information, decisions were made back then that have never since been reexamined, only built on, or piled on. I'm glad I was taught to take it slower. It sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy. In those early days I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one here in SD county did that but me, except for ONE other person. When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two would always be the ONLY people from the other major camp, the GeerSplinters here in SD, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time. No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers. We two were the only shoppers. Everyone huddled into a quickly decided upon group, and the the leaders would tell them to M&A all other grad groups. The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing. I urge patience and info gathering. -In summary- You asked: "Have you ever considered that trying to work within the framework of PFAL has an underlying flaw?" My answer: YES! More than most, MUCH more than most, and earlier than most, MUCH earlier than most. The reason I?ve now finally finished my searching is because PFAL is it! It REALLY is from God, and it?s HIS best since the first century. The adversary hid this from us all. But finally some are seeing. I?ve placed my bet. Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around. When it comes to PFAL and Dr?s good works, you all are spoiled. You?ve had essentially NO OPPOSITION up until now. Sure, a few proPFALers blew in here, but because they hadn?t mastered the material, they made no real contribution, and they quickly ran out of bullets. You Grease Spotters have had SO little significant opposition for so long now (15 years for some?) that you?re utterly convinced you?re right. I think you all need to take a rest and re-think your arguments. Do you REALLY want to be this obsessive with evil? Focusing endlessly on bad stuff? Ever want to obey God on this?: Philippians 4:5-8 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand [in us]. Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Cool Waters, before I got into PFAL, and during, and after, I?ve regularly done top down re-think projects. I?ve done it more than most. Five years ago I reached the end of this process. Thank you for your suggestion, though. It?s just that I did that starting 30 years ago or more. My background in science taught me how science had to be regularly re-thunk at various points in history. I have diligently applied ALL the techniques I knew to be available to a human being in seeking truth. They worked! God found me. . . . . [This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 5:07.]

Ginger Tea, I sent you two e-mails. One to your profile e-address, and it came back undelivered. The other on I sent to your older hotmail e-address. E-mail me.

Oakspear, Ok, I'll stand corrected on the number of steps, but only at the bema, and only if Jesus Christ thinks it's a worth while subject to discuss. Until then, you MUST see my point that something changed a year or two after Dr died, where large numbers of people suddenly were up in arms. It was very disruptive of good things and hurtful to learning babes and grads. These large crowds never were before all abuzz before, when Dr was alive. Thousands of them were happy learning God's Word. Whatever incidents of confrontation you reported, I wasn't there, and they happened 20 years ago. I don't have the ability to sort thorough everyones's old memories, only my own, and even THAT'S shaky. I wont attempt it with others recollections. It's just TOO complicated, and unresolvable. As for Dr's control over the Way Tree, aren't you confusing Craig's control for Dr's? Dr was out of the guidance role in '82. When did you take the class? I experienced a GREAT amount of flexibility in the Way Tree outside HQ during the 70's and early 80's. HQ was tough, but I expected that. [This message was edited by Mike on May 01, 2003 at 4:43.]

Pirate, What part do you not like? What part did I pretend not to say? Where did I make this pretense? So, far, just about everyone who?s posted has read what I wrote wrong, very wrong. I?d might suggest you try another read.

Cool Waters, So far, I?ve only read the first paragraph of your post, but it was so far off, I though I?d respond now to it, and the rest as time permits. You wrote: ?I will no longer shoulder the blame for what VP and twi did to me or anyone else. My lack of performance in twi was not a license to rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy".? First of all, the word blame needs to be mitigated. As far as blame goes, I've been using the word "blame" in this discussion as a poor abbreviation for something much more loving and elegant. I'm all for forgiveness. Heck I'm a member of this group that I'm blaming! I forgive me. When I use the word ?blame? it?s more directed AT the misguided actions or lack of action, and not at people. I use ?blame? in the process of identifying bad techniques and replacing them with good techniques. I intend NOT in my use of ?blame? to use it in a process of identifying people to receive the blame. The adversary gets that, ultimately, but in the meantime it?s good for us al to identify the things that we can do better. THAT?S my emphasis whenever I use the crude abbreviation: blame. ************** Second of all your immensely misguided reading of me lost the TARGET of this ?soft blame? I?ve defined above. The target of your focus, the ?rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy? was a tiny percentage of all the events that went on. I hardly EVER witnessed first hand any of the things in your focus list. I was NOT talking of connecting the OLGs soft blame with ?rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy? at all. That list is not the overall hurt that happened. The overall hurt was a bit milder in overt intensity, but MUCH more common than your list of rarities. There are 30 year staffers who never saw any of that. You list involves a tiny circle of tens of people at most. I?m talking about the thousands who were hurt mentally, financially, emotionally, and a few others not including rape and physical attack. I know relatively nothing of the your list of horrors. Few do, first hand. When you say ?twi folks? you are referring to a small subset of the total. I connected this OLG soft blame to the massive hurts that directly affected thousands in the areas MOSTLY of their hurt relationship with God as their Father and their relationship and fellowship with Jesus Christ. . .

rascal, I disagree with your characterization of my stand, and therefore the conclusions you draw do not apply to my, not to my intentions, nor to my message. You got me wrong on so many details. You wrote: ?God would NEVER sacrifice a SINGLE much less 100s maybe thousands of sweet pure hearted believers to a sick mans lusts....just to allow HIS word to succeed....for you to lay THAT callous disregard at God?s feet Mike.....is just sick.? Well I agree that God would never do that, not even to a single person! For you to lay that mischaracterization at my feet is sick and callous. What?s worse? Sexual lust or the lust for revenge? Or the hate that?s nurtured here toward Dr, and now towards me. Do you think Jesus Christ is all bent out of shape over making sure he gets out all the right words to characterize evil. No. He focuses on love, and light dispels the darkness. You who focus on evil, thinking YOU?RE going to be the savior to root out the evil, you have a surprise coming: you become what you look at. I?d rather focus on the good in God?s Word that He taught Dr and Dr taught us, IN SPITE OF the objection of those who chose to constantly focus on evil. Dr did a lot of good, and it?s in writing. It?s surviving a huge onslaught. My God is capable of forgetting sin; is yours? How long do you evil focusers think your words are going to last? If you took the time to read ALL of what I?ve written on this subject, you?d have a different picture. Instead you have in mind only my most recent posts, mixed in with what OTHER posters have mischaracterized me by. The most glaring concussion you jumped to was in regard to TWI failing. In recent posts I was talking NOT about TWI, the corporation, the company. I was talking about how thousands of INDIVIDUALS were hurt in any number of a myriad of ways, financially, educationally, family, sex, heath. Sometimes the hurt was in promises unfulfilled about the relief we would someday get from many woes. Great frustrations are hurts in themselves, and they lead to other hurts. I was talking about how individuals, not the corporation missed the boat. How the corporation missed the boat is a WHOLE other story. So, please read my most recent post again in that light.

Jesse Joe, What hurt so many was not paying close attention to God's Word. We didn't arm ourselves sufficiently. We didn't go to GOD sufficiently. Dr wasn't responsible for the massive breakdowns in trust and communication that occurred on all remote field locations starting slowly the day after he stepped down as president, linearly increased until a year after his death, after which have sporadically broken out all over in exponential proportions. Many people, especially in the Corps, developed an attraction for the man VPW, or something about him. The attraction to God?s Word and the fine details of what we were taught were often last on the list of many who were more socially minded in their Corps activities. So, Jesse Joe, in fine tuning what you said to make it accurate I?ll say this. It?s NOT so much disobedience to advanced teachings like The Love Way and Christ Formed In You that messed things in general. It was more an IGNORANCE of the fine details of the KJV Bible, and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL. I?m talking about the everyday people on the field, the thousands and tens of thousands. I lived at HQ, and I?m specifically NOT talking about HQ here. I?m talking the majority. It was ignorance of love that soured the collective effort, that had worked so well ten years earlier. People were ignorant because their focus was the social scene with their peers and inappropriate Dr worship. Now the disobedience comes in where we were specifically told to master PFAL (?79 Advanced Class, Sound OUt?84, and Last/Lost Teaching) but we blew it off. We blew off the simple easy instructions to master. We never sufficiently heard enough of the detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books to rise up, up to the spiritual realm from the physical. That?s where we?d have been protected from this wrath that hit us all. We ALL got hurt in one way or another, some spectacularly, due to a breakdown in the grad COMMUNITY BELIEVING. Notice the rotten community believing that Joseph, son of Israel suffered unjustly in. His believing was never thought ill of in God?s Word. His brothers community believing was rotten, and he was unjustly thrown in a prison. God released Joseph form his prison. Again, Joseph is unjustly hit, and again God delivered him AND his tormentors. We disobeyed the simple easy instructions to master. We were relatively ignorant of the advanced armor Dr taught us. We engaged in a serious war with the adversary, and we tried to wing it. Just like Eve we all got creamed. This great defeat was widespread, in all places remote for HQ and root locations. This grand defeat started gradually much earlier, but by 1986, one year after Dr died, it was way out of control and passed the point of no return. It had nothing to do with Dr, and everything to do with a lack of the pure Word in our minds. It?ll never be a return to old past hurts that heals the hurts. I see a community that can return to this Word and believe it, and see the progressively complete deliverance God has provided us in those books. VP didn?t write the books! The books are bigger than VPW, bigger than the entire team who worked with Dr, the books are bigger than we ever guessed, because they are of God.

No. There's LOTS of other ways it's been confirmed! To us OLGs, that is. I can see non-OLGs saying that there's little to none substantiation of the 1942 promise, other than Dr and his helpers saying it was so, that God contacted him. It would be a miracle to me if a non-OLG really took up with what I'm saying. Hey! Miracles do happen! But I'm not holding my breath waiting for one here. I had tons of reasons to be very confident with PFAL all through the 70's and 80's, while NOT taking Dr's word for anything. One by one, item by item, Dr proved himself to me as having the cutting edge answers. In those days I NEVER took Dr's word for anything UNTIL I had checked it out to the best of my ability. I checked it out enough to believe God really did contact him and work on a secret project with him. I believe they succeeded. No, there?s lots of ways I see the reality of the 1942 promise. I got lots answered and saw God?s hand in it a lot in the 70?s, even though I didn?t really master it then. I partially turned the crank and it produced abundantly. And since none of us OLGs really, spiritually mastered it the first time, coming back to PFAL and doing it right this time will produce even STILL more proofs, more than abundant proofs. ***** One of these days, on this thread?s topic, we?ll have to get into the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. My attitude used to be that the difference was bs. I?m surprised no one?s called me on this, with the same attitude. Maybe sex and copyrights have dulled the ability of some to spot the more subtle things, like the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. Someday we?ll have to get into that very interesting difference.

Zixar, I noticed a calmer you when the announcement was made here on GS a few months ago that a poster received a CD in the mail with a bunch of Dr's books on it. Your self copyrighteous attitude was no where near as hot as it is now. I also noticed a helpful you when some poster a week or so ago (page 11 of this thread), asked where such a CD could be found, and you suggested: ?The core books (PFAL, RHST) the five collateral books, JCNG, ADAN, and the two Jesus Christ Books (JCOP, JCPS) have been bootlegged into electronic PDF files, even down to the typesetting. Ask around on the more PFAL-friendly ex-Way websites if you really want them. I don't know who produced them, and I don't know anyone who distributes them now, but they are out there.? Why this sudden change in attitude?

Zixar, Look, I know you hate me. I know you hate what you think is my religion. So go start another thread on this passion you have against me! I'm trying to talk about our relationship with Jesus Christ.

I had a feeling it would be hard to get out the door this afternoon. . . . alfakat, I was NEVER in a position to apply I Tim 3 to Dr or any of the upper leadership. You can?t blame me for not acting rightly in a situation I never was in. I haven?t hardly even talked to anyone who was. I is igernant on dat. However, I did try my best to apply I Tim 3 to my own life and to situations in my sphere of awareness and influence. I failed at times. How did you do at that? Just wondering. You wrote: ?You seek to turn aside and minimize the plain, bald truth about Victor Paul...? No, I seek to put on a much lower surety level and response level, the collectively reported plain bald facts. That?s FACTS, not truths. Facts that happened 20 years ago. If I had been there, it?d be different. I?d have to then apply different principles then than what I have to apply now. To any situation that I personally face now, I should not continue in sin that grace may abound. What I have to say about specific past events about ?continuing in sin...,? about which I have no real knowledge of, is not worth saying. For my life, to the best of MY ability (and only God knows what that is) I agree with Paul. And I wont be brought under the power of any... who want to condemn me on this. ************************************************** Zixar, I think you?re insulting the intelligence of the WAYGB and the legal department of TWI. . .

Pirate, the sex scandals didn't hit the front pages until 1986 or '87. At least one or two years after Dr died. And I didn't say anything specific regarding how I'd have handled ANY specific situation. You're jumping to concussions.

Zixar, Thanks! I guess I was asking for that. ******* Goey, You?re right in pointing out my backlog of responses, in which your Youngs comment resides. I?ll get to it soon. There?s a lot going on, so sit tight. Or hang loose, whatever pleases you. I?m way behind on my homework. Maybe tonight. In the meantime I?m taking care of a Few easy, fast posts before heading off to work. Without thoroughly going into it, there may have been lots of ?Young?s back when this was written. Plus it wasn?t written, but in tape form when sold in the bookstore to us, so it wasn?t up to that high standard of ?it is written.? Going back to Dr?s ?Masters of the Word? article and accompanying editorial ?How the word works? (both posted) the standard of what God made available through the Way ministry (not just Dr?s ministry but the whole team, with JC head) was stated this way "book and magazine form." Plus, what Dr may have written for the radio broadcast may have been misspoken into the tape, from which the posted transcript originates. Plus, this ?Love Way? is not on the mastery list from Dr?s Last/Lost Teaching. This ?Love Way? is very useful, but I wouldn?t drop dead (nor drop my message) if there was a genuine mistake in it. Then again, I wouldn?t be surprised if there?s an error in your analysis too. If there?s more to this, I may get time for it when I go after my backlog. Remember how long sirguessalot waited for an answer. Two pages I think. ****** As for you hypothetical question about sexual abuse within a family, I?d say the same thing I said above, silence as much as possible. Sure, there would be a small circle of people who truly need to know about hurtful events, and discuss them for the proper course of action for THAT PARTICULAR situation (please don?t ask me for formulae or algorithms). Sure, that small circle may include the police for some cases, after facts are carefully discerned. It would depend on how overt a discovery it was. Sometimes these things start out with a mere suspicion, not a simple caught-in-the-act situation. Plus people really do lie about these kinds of things. It?s standard operating procedure for police to consider this possibility. Many such lies are discovered every year. There?s one reported in Genesis, involving Joseph. I know it?s not about children, just the ease with which lies enter these situations. GREAT ease! I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. ________I?m..saying..lies..are..common..in..many..sex..situations.__________ This MUST be taken into account. It cannot be ignored no matter how politically incorrect it is. Not only lies, but even false memories, implanted by hypnotic psychologists are being observed lately. In most cases, I?d say the media should NOT be involved. (The www is a medium.) It would have to be a very strange situation before silence would do more damage than publicity would. All shades of gray in between is too much for me to talk about now in a short response like this. In Dr?s case, it seems that during his life, God did cover for him, in that it was some pretty inept (5-senses wise) individuals who supposedly did the master covering for him on the natural level. How did they succeed so perfectly? God always kept Dr ten steps away from these (exaggerated?) scandals because of Dr?s believing to do the job that God called him to, bringing forth His Word. It was not for his believing in the area of BECOMING the man he knew to be from these revelations he got. Dr?s believing was shot in that area of totally applying it to himself, and he said so on tape, in print, and in stone, literally. (?I wish I were the man I know to be.?) Dr was not called to be our savior, not called to be the one who we want to become. That?s Jesus Christ?s job, to be our emulation target, and Dr says so bigtime in these teachings, Love Way, and Christ Formed In You. It?s not too late for us to come back to PFAL and do our best to master it, and learn these things about forming Christ within, and then growing up on the pure milk of the Word into becoming the Jesus Christ men and women we were called to be by our Father God. . . . . [This message was edited by Mike on April 29, 2003 at 14:11.]

Jesse Joe, You asked a very interesting question: ?If VP's definition of the love of God was so right, why did believing it hurt so many people?? Well first of all, according to many here, it wasn?t actually VP?s definition but who's ever he lifted it from. I say it was God, ultimately, that he got it from. And this applies to more than just the definition of love. BUT, it doesn?t answer your question, either. That?s why it?s an interesting one. In answering it, however, you must realize that I?m going to so from MY perspective, not yours. There are several components, two big ones. To keep this short (I got work to go to) I?ll stick with only the two. ***** The first is that we never REALLY believed the doctrine Dr was teaching us. We believed some of for a while, but there was a lot of mental assent, plus a lot of winging it and faking it. A few did do some 5-senses mastery of the material, in the earlier years, but drifted away before being able to begin spiritual mastery. SO THIS is one of the big reasons people got hurt, the large masses. We were not very diligent to get all of what Dr taught. Our efficiency in applying our partial knowledge was low. This ?Love Way? teaching and this whole thread indicates this. Starting in 1987 there was a big cry amongst rebel grads (mostly CES now) that Dr never taught us about the lordship of Jesus Christ and our proper relationship with him. This outcry was correct in protesting the absence on JC in the TVT, which by that time had developed at that time to a real monster. However, that outcry was totally false in that Dr DID teach it, but we ignored it. The ?Christ Formed..? teachings and the formed Christ (as opposed to the created Christ) were just never a part of TVT. No one talked about it. We were into the TVT more than what Dr taught. ***** The other major reason is that what Dr WAS teaching (print and tape) to us was the first MAJOR threat to the adversary in 2000 years. Because it was so right on, the adversary pulled out all the stops to suppress it. ***** So, putting the two major reasons together, we were not diligent in putting on the WHOLE armor of God, but we did go into battle with an adversary who DID put on all his armor. CREAMO! We got creamed as a result.

Oakspear, If you could insert a couple of spaces in that script, it may shrink the screen width back down. I think your "originals" stretched it out. You'll still be able to wish we could read it, only with a little word wrap.

Goey, Can you explain to Zixar that this work, ?The Love Way,? of Dr?s quite likely was actually from Kenyon or someone else (like God maybe), so it?s ok for me to quote it extensively. After all, Kenyon always did things only for the glory of God, which by the way, was also my reason ...for posting it that is. I figure with the intensity of the plagiarism charges abounding here, Dr couldn?t have come up with anything on his own because there wouldn?t have been enough time, considering he had to have been too busy looking up things to copy. Zixar, After Goey has a word with you, and after you put it all together, can you please explain to Goey how it is I can in good conscience subscribe to posting as to how Kenyon, VPW, God, whoever... had some real good wisdom in advising us in a certain context of ?The Love Way,? that in MOST cases silence (or as much silence AS POSSIBLE) is a loving balance that promotes better family peace. It?s better than the two imbalanced extremes, ranging from tortured inappropriate silence, and extending to indiscriminant publication of hurt and hurtful messages. Thanks, guys. That?ll save me a lot of time.

I forgot to mention another big reason why this is an advanced topic. It?s simply because we never got down to really master PFAL and the mind of Christ that God had Dr put into written form for us. We were taught ?Christ Formed...? several times, but we weren?t quite ready to understand it any more than a surface 5-senses glossing over. It was just too advanced a concept for us (OLGs) to learn, due to our pride at having ?arrived? at sufficient enlightenment by the 1980?s. Now that we OLGs have had 20 years to see that our own ability to bless people is almost completely snuffed out compared to what was happening in the 1970?s, we are less smug. We?ve had 20 years of failure to learn the ?other? six manifestations, most of which are to super bless others, yet our progress, if any, has been backwards. We?re in a very good position to get meek to learn again by coming back to this Word.

"The Love Way V. P. Wierwille Part III When a person is born again of God's spirit he receives the new nature. But he receives this spiritually and it doesn't do a thing for him in concretion, in manifestation in the senses realm, until he renews his mind and walks on that which he receives spiritually. A man may be born again of God's spirit, have the love of Christ within him, but you never see this love of Christ in manifestation unless he renews his mind. This is why the word "charity" in I Corinthians 13 should always be translated "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." This new kind of love which is given to us when we're born again of God's spirit, if we renew our minds and put on the mind of Christ and manifest it, is so big that selfishness is utterly eliminated. You see, in the new creation we were given a new self, a new love. A self born of God, a self like Jesus Christ himself, that he had in his earth walk. We are not seeking our own. They cannot provoke us, and we refuse to take any account of evil. We never rejoice in unrighteousness if we manifest the love of God in the renewed mind. We only rejoice in the truth, in the things that are real. The fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh verse of I Corinthians 13 are singularly and dynamically significant. Charity, verse four, which is the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, suffereth long and is kind. The love of God in the renewed mind envieth not itself. The love of God in the renewed mind vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, does not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Verse eight says, the love of God in the renewed mind never fails. Isn't that tremendous? You see, one of the translators translates the seventh verse, which really startled me, he translates it "covereth all things." The King James reads "beareth all things." Young translates it "covering closely," and someone else translated it "cover with silence." I like that. Covers over with silence. What are they talking about? Oh, it's scandal for instance. It's something that has happened that is unseemly. Something that if it were known would injure perhaps a lot of people, might cause a division in the body of believers, might break up a family. What do we do if we have the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation? We cover it closely with silence, we never mention it, and the thing dies there and no one is injured. Isn't that wonderful? It believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. And then the great climax, the love of God never faileth. We should remember this. The agapao, the new kind of love which is in our spirits which we have renewed our minds to in manifestation, this new kind of love never goes into bankruptcy. The red flag is never seen flying over its dwelling. Here is where love holds sway and rules. It's not just "queen for a day," it is queen for a lifetime because this has gained, the ascendancy. In I John 4:4 we read, "Ye are of love, my little children, and greater is love in you than hatred and bitterness that is in the world." When I read this and I studied it and I worked it so that it became manifested in the renewed mind, my spiritual life and my natural life in the senses realm entered a spiritual dynamic. I began to take a diagnosis of my heart life, I began to investigate love's realities and possibilities. I saw that I Corinthians 13:1-4 was a sort of resume of the failure of men walking with the renewed mind. "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels," which is the highest manifestation of the achievement of the born-again spirit of God as a man renews his mind and speaks in tongues, but he writes across it, "if I have not love (the love of God, in the renewed mind in manifestation), I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling or clanging cymbal." Nothing wrong with speaking by the spirit, speaking in tongues, speaking with tongues of men or of angels, nothing wrong with it. But it's me. I am become a sounding brass or a clanging or tinkling cymbal. My linguistic ability spiritually is but a noise, a jangling, unharmonious discord. Then if I have all knowledge and know all mysteries, and if I had all faith, believing, so that I could remove mountains, it would be tremendous, but if I have not love, nothing wrong with the manifestations of the spirit, but something wrong with me. I am nothing. And if I had all knowledge, so great that the universities would honor me with all the doctor degrees, and he says it softly and tenderly when he says, but have not love, I am nothing. This is God's clinic, ladies and gentlemen. This is the most heartsearching thing that the human individual will ever have to face. He can get born again of God's spirit in a moment of time, in the twinkling of an eye, for as it declares in Romans 10:9-10, "If thou wilt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." The new birth occurs in a moment of time, in the twinkling of an eye. But what about the walk? What about the manifestation of the love of God in the renewed mind in the senses realm? This is a lifetime. This is a walk of victory, this is a walk of glory. This is something you have to discipline yourself to, day after day and week after week. You see, this most heartsearching thing that the human has to ever face is how to walk in love once he has the love of Christ. I simply stand amazed in the presence of the integrity and accuracy of God's Word here in I Corinthians 13. I can see now that scholasticism, culture, everything that modern facilities have given us, travel, music, art, all are of no value unless love, this new kind of love, the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, dominates my life. When at the end of the list, if that is all I have, without love, I go to my Maker empty- handed. I am a failure. You see, the new creation, the new birth in manifestation is the only solution. This new creation, created in love, created in Christ Jesus, is the workmanship of God in Christ. God made the first man out of the dust of the earth, the second man He made out of Himself. The first man is of the earth, earthy. The last man that He made was created out of righteousness and true holiness and reality, out of the very nature of the Father Himself. You see, when this new nature, this Christ in you, is born in there, this is the greatest thing in the world. Why? Because it is God's nature imparted to us. It is God working in us. It is God doing that which is well-pleasing unto Himself. It is God building Himself within us, until His spirit within us dominates our sense knowledge reason faculties, and brings them into harmony with the knowledge of the reality of His Word. Then when I manifest forth the greatness of the love of God in the renewed mind, it makes us more than well-pleasing. It gives to us love's creative genius that fills the very heart of the Father with joy. We become so Christ-like that the vine and the branches illustrate our union. We become a mirror in which the Father sees Himself. This new love in manifestation has given us a new self, a love self, a Jesus Christ self. The old religion of fighting self and crucifying self is medieval. It doesn't belong to Christianity. It belongs to the religions of the East. We see man through the new eyes of the love of God in Christ Jesus. It's this new kind of love that gives to us genuine eyesight. We can only see the good things. Remember that translation we mentioned about love, that love "beareth all things?" It literally covers closely or covers over with silence all that is unseemly. There is no scandal. There are no old sores to uncover. Love can see only God in us and God can only see Himself in us. We see men's overloads in order that we may bear them. We see men's infirmities that we may share them with them. We see their weaknesses in order that we may give unto them our strength. We see their poverty in order that we may give unto them our abundance. We become Jesus Christ men and women. As a battery is charged with electricity we are charged with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation. We stay in His presence feeding on the Word until our whole being is saturated with Him. Then we go out and we minister to people. We are lights, like luminaries, blazing a path in life where sin has no part and the misery that comes from sin can never enter. Now you understand what it means to walk in love, what it means to be in Christ. This is the nature of the Father, and this is that life which I speak of as the life which is more than abundant. ...the end ************************************************************* . . . . The "Christ Formed In You" teaching touches on some of the same advanced concepts that pop up in "The Love Way." There is a correspondence between the ?Christ? formed within and several phrases used in ?The Love Way.? These phrases have been mentioned before and are: ?a self like Jesus Christ? ?Jesus Christ like? ?a love self? ?a Jesus Christ self? ?Jesus Christ men and women? I describe this topic as "advanced" for a few reasons. One is that this ?Christ? within (a la Gal.4:19) is NOT the same as the familiar foundational topic ?Christ in you the hope of glory.? The Col.1:25 type of ?Christ in? is pneuma hagion, holy spirit, the gift that does not affect the mind, because this ?Christ in? is in the spirit category, while the mind is in the soul category. ?Christ in you the hope of glory? is a free gift, requiring believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. Prior to this believing, people receive this gift with a nautili man?s mind. After this believing it?s STILL a natural realm oriented mind. This Christ is created in a man. Christ FORMED within the mind is something spiritual happening in the natural realm. This Christ is formed and grows in a renewed mind according to the accuracy of God?s Word. This Christ formed within is the new man, the self like Jesus Christ, It?s Jesus Christ like, it?s a love self, a Jesus Christ self, and it?s found only in Jesus Christ men and women. This Christ is FORMED within a man?s soul. This new man is advanced. He?s God?s REAL masterpiece. From the 5-senses perspective, receiving pneuma hagion where there was none before is a masterful stroke of grace on God?s part. But the 5-senses view cannot contain the advanced Christ Formed. From God?s perspective, the REAL masterpiece is this Christ formed in the soul. It's the NEW spirit mentioned in the "Are You Limiting God?" chapter in the Blue Book. The advanced Christ formed within fits well (while Christ in the hope does not) with this phrase from Part I of ?The Love Way? posted last week: "Your spirit must have the privilege of meditating in the Word." This indicates that it's not "pneuma hagion" Dr is talking about, but the "spirit of God" that's born into the SOUL category, a different, later process from that created spirit we were first taught. This spirit is capable of "meditating" in the Word, a mental process, not in the spiritual category of holy spirit. This advanced Christ formed within is the NEW man, and the NEW spirit. It?s one notch away from the spiritual body. Notice also from Part I of ?The Love Way? above that the REAL man is described as "your spirit." Again this can't be pneuma hagion, but something even bigger. This spirit is fed by the Word, not SIT. ************************************************************* One thing for meditation I see in this last Part III is the repetition of a phrase that pertains to our situation here. Here are the sentences containing the repetition. ?This is God?s clinic, ladies and gentlemen. This is the most heartsearching thing that the human individual will ever have to face.? ?You see, this most heartsearching thing that the human has to ever face is how to walk in love once he has the love of Christ.?

Actually, Dr did make a big fuss over the PFAL translations not getting it quite right. At the time I thought it was just his personality and him being crabby. Now I see that he was talking about the need for a spiritual understanding of the class giving rise to a spiritual translation, as opposed to a mere mechanical (and somewhat off) 5-senses translation. In this distincion between the natural and the spiritual, it was the case that WE were the clueless ones. But not anymore!

I?m almost back to posting replies to the accumulated posts. In reading over the pages I picked out one quick response I can do now. Tonight I may post the last part in ?The Love Way? and that is the part that has the hottest hot buttons. I think everyone did pretty well with the first two parts, but this last one is a bit more bumpy a ride. Exy, you may want to fasten your seat belt for it, along with some others. I?ll try to steer into calmer seas after it?s over. Remember that it?s good practical advice, no matter how far past experiences may part from meshing with this.... ..........AND it MAY even be sound advice from Kenyon. So I may post that tonight, even if not finished with the responses above. I?m open for comments on this. Some people want me to post it NOW!!! Some want me to post it on some other site. Which?ll it be? Here?s the one quick response I can do now. *************************************************** . . . Goey, You posted April 25, 2003 10:06 on this thread: ?But, according to Mike, only folks who can understand Wierwillian English have any chance at mastery of the Word of God. Translating PFAL into another language would, according to Mike, render it void of authority and no longer the Word of God.? I?d say that with CNN and other world wide TV channels, plus the internet, and other factors, English has become the de facto world language. Besides most OLGs being English proficient, most in the up coming generations of the world already know English. Your point has some theoretical implications, but few practical.