Mike

mj412, You wrote: ?Mike I wrote the chunks of Gods children you are missing as Teachers of the bible . not as potential recruits of yours.? Ok, it looks like we mis-communicated there. Back on track with you, I got those chunks years ago. I sampled lots of non-Way stuff from the 70?s all the way to 1998, which is when I came BACK to PFAL and focused on it bigtime. On many, many issues I suspected Dr was POSSIBLY wrong, and I checked out what other teachers out there had to offer. In the long run, after LOTS of shopping, I came back to PFAL. I need to correct you about the recruit thing. It was people who I wanted to serve that I had mentioned, not people I wanted to recruit to serve me. Do you ever look around for people who need what you got in Christ so you can help them? If you do want to help people, how would you feel if you then got accused of ?recruiting? them to help you or serve you? I'm really trying to help, and I got lots of information to do it with. I just look for grads who are ready to get helped again. ******************************* You then wrote about John 14:26 : ?Jesus promised us MIKE! He didnt say anything about vpw being a neccesary part of how we can be peaceful and not troubled and taught in every thing we need to know. He said the HOLY SPIRIT will teach us All things not vpw.? mj, I?m aware of those verses and have worked them for decades. Please allow me point out some details about the same verses you brought up. You see, those verses do well to assure us that God will teach us. They are VERY comforting, and I am thankful you refreshed my memory of them. There are SOME things those verses DON?T tell us, however, and it?s good to be aware of these things. Those verses in John don?t tell us HOW the information is going to get to us, they simply assure us that it WILL get to us. There are several ways, and actually all of them may at times be utilized. One is directly, by way of the three revelation manifestations. This is the method that many people latch on to as if it was the ONLY way. Another way is by phenomena, like the burning bush Moses got early in his spiritual development, or the handwriting on the wall the evil king got. Another way is by reading as Paul says in Ephesians 3:4 ?Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ...? This is the way lots of people get talked out of, because it doesn't seem as glamorous as direct revelation. But guess what, mj412? You had to READ the John 14:26 verses to know about the assurance of information that you quoted me. If it weren?t for you READING that in a trusted context, you wouldn?t have the confidence to think it and say it. Let?s look at the context of Eph 3:4, because it ALSO talks about the first method, the direct revelation method, right in there with the reading method. Eph 3:1-6 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Notice the mention of apostles and prophets in there? They come up again in the next chapter. I?m focusing on them because when people opt for the "glamorous" direct method they get tricked out of the gifts Jesus Christ gives to help us in the READING category. Jesus supplies apostles and prophets to give us good written doctrine, and THEN when we read and study that material we have that guidance that Jesus promised in John's gospel. Eph 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: In those verses the idea of ?Christ formed within? comes up a lot: ...the perfecting of the saints, ...Till we all come... ...unto a perfect man, ...the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ...grow up into him in all things, Being guided by The Holy Spirit and by holy spirit is a WONDERFUL process and all three methods have there place. It?s not HOW the information comes that's important, it?s THAT it comes that's important. People get all hung up on it being only the direct method, but that?s HARD and costly. Reading is much smoother a growth process. This subject will come up again when we discuss spiritual understanding versus 5-senses understanding, and also the subject of HOW to get the direct revelation. Getting direct revelation on DOCTRINE is a rare thing. Getting revelation on PERSONAL matters, is supposed to be a COMMON thing. Soon it will. Receiving an understanding of right doctrine is an on-going process. The more we seek Him via the accuracy of His Word, the more He can guide us. Big breakthroughs in discovering more accurate Word and more Godly guidance await those who take Dr up on his final instructions to us to master PFAL because he received that revelation in many forms and finally got it into written form, readable form, book and magazine form. It's the same process God used 2000 years ago to get Paul?s revelations into written form were used again in the 20th century. Why is this so forbidden of God to do? It?s very loving and generous of Him to give us His Word DIRECTLY in English. It?s worth mastering it. When it comes to right doctrine, it's the gift ministries that prevent us from being blown around with every wind of doctrine, as recorded in Ephesians 4. We can get direct revelation for things in our personal lives when we really NEED it, but even much of this kind of guidance is already written. When it comes to right doctrine, I see many people blowing about thinking they don't need the gift ministries, and the Holy Spirit will DIRECTLY guide them into all truth. They add the word "directly" to John 16:13 and try to dismiss the need for God's specially appointed middle men to give us His Word for reading. *********************************** You then wrote: ?do not try to tell me we need pfal to find the holy spirit , I was born again decades before I took pfal, many are born again without pfal and many will be born again without pfal if the Lord tarries much longer. pfal is not neccesary at all.? For those of us who want to still serve, hold forth the Word, teach, heal, etc, PFAL is necessary to get the fullness of what God has revealed in these recent decades. I?m talking about an ?all nine all the time? kind of lifestyle where we tap into the fullness of what Jesus Christ made available. ********************************** Coming back to PFAL simply means getting blessed again by the Word that is shared in those books and that happens by READING it. No recruiting, no serving me, just reading and enjoying... again. There?s no TWI to lord it over us, no leadership left to tell us how to read. It?s just us and God now, reading the revelations He gave us to improve over man made Bibles. Like Paul?s epistles assisted God?s people to make the transition from one administration to a new one, so does PFAL prepare us for the administration transition that is occurring now. [This message was edited by Mike on June 10, 2003 at 2:43.]

dizzydog, When people look into PFAL the way I am suggesting, THERE they will see Jesus Christ FAR better than I can preach him. I do preach him as I clean windows to those who don't know much, but to PFAL grads, and to OLGs, the needs are different. I'm preaching Christ in a way you haven't yet learned to recognize. In the review of this thread I did on the previous page there were lots of references to where I was bringing Christ Jesus to the forefront. I believe that when we OLGs get PFAL down properly, spiritually understood as a team, then our outreach for Christ will be MUCH greater than if we were to plod ahead with the mere 5-senses broken cisterns we all have now. I'm all for preaching Christ, and I want to do it MOST effectively, hence I master PFAL to meet the Master in the air.

WordWolf, You wrote: ?At last I looked, Steve's last point seems to have illustrated that yours was an invalid statement. You said vpw said something, and Steve pointed out it seems to go nowhere.? From a dim memory of the first go-around on this Blue p.24, Steve was busy analyzing some things, and then he put a question in terms of his analysis (which I didn?t buy) and the question seemed to be going no where. It seemed to be more a question about his analysis than a question about the Blue Book. From what I remember it looked like his analysis was top heavy, ie too heavily built on too small a foundation: only one passage. He seemed to ignore my many references to the many OTHER passages which may help him in his analysis so that it doesn?t bring up puzzling questions. I see no such puzzling question in the text of the Blue Book page 24. Do you? Just for those of you who don?t have a Blue Book handy here are those pages: ***************************************************************** BTMS pages 23 and 24 ?Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God's will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency. ?We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, "That just cannot be," and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, "Sufficiency in everything." We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man. ?We cannot know anything about the spiritual world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned." ?Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world. ?Time and time again, after I have explained the difference between the natural and spiritual worlds, how the one supersedes the other and that two entirely different sets of laws are in existence, people have said to me that they were thereafter able to give God the place He deserves. Then they refused to limit God within themselves.? ***************************************************************** [This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 20:38.]

WordWolf, I did give some formal answering in one post to your BIG question which you posted June 08, 2003 17:21 above. Also, I hope you noticed that in a few subsequent posts I indirectly added to my answer without formally addressing you. Maybe I should have, because I had your question still in mind as I wrote. I?m going back farther on this page for more Q?s I?ve missed. I realize that a few pages ago I was caught up in several days of work and about a half a page slid by withoug me answering anyone. Was part of your set of Qs in there do you think?

...and not only that, I'd have never lived down the ego catcalls if I had posted something like this myself. Now, let's not make the topic little ole me here again. Who out there can explain the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding? Hmmmmmmmm?

Thanks, JesseJoe! You just save me a lot of investigative work. . . .(Nick Danger 1969) . . .But such an odd order to put that list in. [This message was edited by Mike on June 10, 2003 at 20:45.]

This is the same from PFAL page 106 with my bracketed comments: We have failed to walk in deliverance in THIS our day and time [NOW ? today... 2003... this is foretelling, prophesy] because The Word is not real [sPIRITUAL], it is not alive [sPIRITUAL], it is not dynamic [changing from 5-senses to SPIRITUAL] to or in us. [We don't have a spiritual understanding; at best it?s 5-senses and limited.] Consequently most people are spiritual cripples, spiritual hitchhikers. They ride along on somebody else?s beliefs. Many people today would much rather read and study the literature of the hour [latest splinter teacher or maybe-grad on TV] than the literature of eternity [sPIRITUAL]. Why? Because the word of man [traditional religion and traditional texts] has had preeminence over the wonderful Word of God [this Word that He gave us in PFAL]. If what man [scholars, researchers, theologians, 5-senses investigators] says contradicts what The Word [PFAL revelation] says, they stick to man?s word rather than The Word. If we want deliverance, if we want to tap the resources for the more abundant [sPIRITUAL] life, then God?s Word demands that we study and live by this [this ...as in ?THIS PFAL book you?re reading now...?] matchless Word. [This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 16:58.]

A tiny bit of logic: If, If, IF The PFAL writings are God-breathed, Then BY COMPARISON the English versions of the Bible that come to us by the traditional paths are mere opinions and words of men and limited to being approximations of God?s Word. ******************************************* It?s when I focus on believing the above ?if? that I can say BY COMPARISON traditional Bibles are ?tattered remnants.? Otherwise, I?m very thankful for these academic and scholarly reconstructions of most of the originals, with fairly decent translations into English. I depended greatly on such tools as the KJV in order to get to the place that I can now understand PFAL and the ?many words added? God chose to include in His re-format of His own Word. I still like to open and read my KJV with hundreds of notes and memories on every NT page and tons of OT too. It was a totally necessary stepping stone to get to something more accurate, and anyone who?s been careful and meticulous in how they accumulate their wide margin notes know what I?m talking about. It?s a great old friend in a sense, and I?m reminded of in every page of PFAL.

In culling through my notes, some are not so much explanations of the Nat/Spir dichotomy (...I feel an acronym coming on... just a feeling..) as they are applications or illustrations. Here is one such application/illustration. See if you can spot the buzz words that tip off the astute reader if it?s the Natural/Factual realm being emphasized or the Spiritual/Divine perspective. This is from PFAL page 106: ?We have failed to walk in deliverance in this our day and time because The Word is not real, it is not alive, it is not dynamic to or in us. Consequently most people are spiritual cripples, spiritual hitchhikers. They ride along on somebody else?s beliefs. Many people today would much rather read and study the literature of the hour than the literature of eternity. Why? Because the word of man has had preeminence over the wonderful Word of God. If what man says contradicts what The Word says, they stick to man?s word rather than The Word. If we want deliverance, if we want to tap the resources for the more abundant life, then God?s Word demands that we study and live by this matchless Word.?

Relax! There may be a limit to the number of threads the software can handle. Pawtucket may know. Dizzydog, you can pray that it crashes when it hits the limit. How's that?

mj412, I'm not leaving out anyone. I'm seeking to serve them AFTER I master PFAL. That's the purpose of Power For Abundant Living, the power and abundance being all nine manifestations, seven of which are for SERVICE to others. The last/lost teaching of Dr?s was ?The Joy of Serving? and in it he tells us that in order to do SUPER service we have to SUPER master PFAL. Mj, I?m only temporarily addressing a section of the grads, the OLGs who saw that at one time PFAL was good and from God but then something went wrong. I?m here to report that what went wrong was NOT the writings! Almost anything else can be seen as pooping out in one way or another, but the Word in ?BOOK AND MAGAZINE FORM? is pure. That quote, ?book and magazine form is from ?How the Word Works? Dr?s Our Times editorial with main article ?Masters of the Word.? It?s posted here and easy to find in the summary above.. ...book and magazine FORM ...Christ FORMED within ...hmmmm Anyway, once a bunch of us OLGs come back, just a initial wave of a dozen or so, and pick up where we left off then things can REALLY start healing. THEN we can MUCH more effectively help others. I see PFAL as our (OLGs) super school for service to others. . . . P.S. Non-OLGs are weclome too. [This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 16:03.]

Steve Lortz, My notes on other references to the Nat/Spir dichotomy are maturing and I?ll be able to post soon. Last night I was reviewing all the pages of this thread and I came across the first time (not the recent one) you had difficulty with that one page 24 in the Blue Book. It refreshed my memory as to what was bothering you, and I saw that at that time I didn?t seem to have an answer that would satisfy you. My stated policy when encountering AEs or kinks is NOT to abandon my PFAL respect and study, but to be on the lookout for more light. I?ve seen enough of these little problems melt away to justify this policy. Even on the short course of these threads we saw one such AE (timing of David?s heart designation) melt in the heat of the Word with no trouble at all. It was with this in mind that I withheld direct consideration of your question in this second round. Like I said, I think it?s premature to consider it too deeply, until more data is on the table. My notes will be ready in a few days, so I just wanted to prepare you so that you can pour over ALL the places (at least that I can find in 5 years) to get a feel for your answer. May I again caution you against premature judgement. These things deserve weeks and months and even years to ponder properly. I ran across the PFAL passage where Dr says sometimes it takes years to see something fit. It?s very instructive. Here is PFAL page 224: ?Let me briefly point out one final key in understanding Biblical truth. What course of action does a person follow when he cannot make sense of a very difficult verse -- when the verse, the context and previous usage are not satisfactory in giving him understanding? ?The difficult verse must be understood in the light of clear verses. There may be one verse that stands out as difficult, while there are many verses on the same subject which are clear. Modern man has magnified the difficult one and forgotten the many clear ones. That is not honest. That is not rightly dividing The Word. We must see that the one fits with the many, not by squeezing it but by working it. Sometimes I have waited ten years to fit one thorny verse with the rest of the accuracy of The Word. Time is not important when studying a verse; the keys in The Word are. When we rightly divide The Word as to whom it is written, we understand that the one difficult verse must always fit in the light of the clear verses on the same subject.?

Hey fellas, fightin's not in style. Let's get back to topic.

This thread has been going a long time and has covered a MASSIVE amount of ground. Since starting it, and counting with it two spinoff threads that ran simultaneous to the mid section of this main thread, this thread has covered enough ground to heal or set straight on the fast track road to recovery every PFAL grad who started out well and hit disaster. Just to inform the recent joiners here to this thread, and to remind those who started at its beginning, I?ve put together a sketchy summary of the highlights I?ve tried to present here so far. I mentioned two recent milestones of success for this thread in the application of the Physical/Spiritual dichotomy to [Christ CREATED in/Christ FORMED in] and then to [bible/Word of God]. I desire repetition of discussion in these areas. There is another milestone that?s eluded me. It?s the difference between natural 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. Can anyone explain in simple terms the difference between these two ideas? This is another hot item for discussion. Until then, here?s my review of a SMALL sampling of the items I?ve placed on this thread that I feel are right on target of this thread?s intended course. ************************************** Ubiquity Review ? skimming some highlights of what I got on topic in spite of the resistance. page 1 ? Specially reserved words in Dr?s vocabulary. These words, in the PFAL writings, are reserved for emphasizing the spiritual side: above, ascertain, celestial, Christ Jesus, create, deep, divine, eternal, faith, figurative, glory, God's viewpoint, heavenly, immortal, incorruptible, infinite, innumerable, instruction, internal, invisible, Jesus' cross, joy, know, light, logos, real, reality, revelation, see, Son of God, spirit, spiritual, treasure, true, truth, ultimate, unseen, divine, essentially, fervently, genuine, good, honest, information, just, lovely, real, really, true To some degree, some words are paired off so that one emphasizes the natural and the other the spiritual: 5-senses & spiritual perception, analyze & ascertain, anything & everything, believing & faith, below & above, Bible & Word of God, body, soul & spirit, carnal & spiritual, corruptible & incorruptible, countless & innumerable, earthen vessel & treasure, earthly & heavenly, everlasting & eternal, everyday life & real, reality, external & internal, fact & truth, finite & infinite, flesh & spirit, happiness & joy, hear & see, human & divine, immediate & ultimate, Jesus Christ & Christ Jesus, light & dark, literal & figurative, make, form & create, man & Son of God, man's view point & God's viewpoint, mortal & immortal, Natural & Spiritual, night & day, people & man, phileo & agape, physical & spiritual, reason & logic, religion & Christianity, religious leader & doulos servant, sensual & spiritual, Simon's cross & Jesus' cross, Son of man & Son of God, spoken & written, static & dynamic, surface & deep, tangible & unseen, teaching & instruction, terrestrial & celestial, think & know, visible & invisible *************************************************** Page 2 ? some foundational background BTMS pages 23 ?25 quoted as a fundamental, early, and explicit teaching on the dichotomy. GMWD page 14 posted ? hidden spiritual meanings coexistent with 5- senses meanings. RHST page 27 ? Bible in 5-senses realm KJV list of verses posted http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=2 *************************************************** Page 3 ? JC Quota Booster Respect for Jesus Christ?s post Pentecost ministry in the Church Epistles confused as Paul worship. Paul worship compared to VPW worship. Some odd types of ?mistakes? considered. OLG acronym coined. OMSW pages 207-222 posted - Major Myth Busted ? VPW did NOT neglect teaching on LJC Absent Christ vs. Our Relationship with Christ http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=3 *************************************************** Page 4 Things in the PFAL record on ?knowing Christ? that we missed. BTMS p.109 ? ?Jesus enters into our hearts? & Praying to Jesus discussed JCNG p. 8 ?9 ? Dr?s testimonial to Jesus Christ 5-senses knowing Christ vs. spiritual knowing http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=4 *************************************************** Page 5 Dr?s last teaching at Emporia = master PFAL Balaam?s prophecy http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=5 *************************************************** Page 6 Pawtucket?s Principle applied to ?Why do we believe in the Bible? ?Christ Formed In You? SNS edited transcript posted Our relationship with Christ and Session One of the Advanced Class (posted on a spinoff thread) on becoming the Word and Forming Christ within. http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=6 *************************************************** Page 7 A plea for Philippians 4:5-8 - if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. When I posted here on Dr?s 5-senses abilities the ground shook; also when I tried to post on about sex. http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=7 *************************************************** Page 8 some POP comments and quotes a bit of neuroscience on forgetting http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=8 *************************************************** Page 9 Back to relationships with JC The physically absent Christ The spiritually present Christ Here?s where dizzydog came in http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=9 *************************************************** Page 10 OMSW p.26 posted on using a microscope to examine God?s Word vs. man?s works. Some plagiarism discussion http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=10 *************************************************** Page 11 more plagiarism discussion Big build up starts for ?The Love Way? http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=10 ************************************************** Page 12 Steve and I go deep into Natural/Spiritual dichotomy More buildup for ?The Love way? with here?s-what-to-look for---- a self like Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ like, a love self, a Jesus Christ self, Jesus Christ men and women. ?The Love Way? Parts I & II are posted Jesus Christ learning revelation manifestations Steve starts seeing spirits in me ?Close Counterfeits? discussed http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=12 *************************************************** Page 13 ?The Love Way? Part III posted Connections between ?Love Way? and ?Christ Formed? discussed http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=13 *************************************************** Page 14 lots o debate http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=14 *************************************************** Page 15 lots o debate http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=15 *************************************************** Page 16 Steve hijacks my thread while I?m resting I fart my way back in and defend my PhD. http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...3656073772&p=16 *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** that brings us up to recent history for this thread, but in the middle pages I was drawn to two spin off threads where Ubiqity Info spilled out in posts there to. *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** bumbyrama?s thread titled ?promises never fulfilled? *************************************************** Page 1 knowing Jesus Christ end: http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=1226063003&p=1 *************************************************** Page 2 *Here I posted a set of stories I heard from a lady who went to High School with Dr. *Then I get hit with another JC Quota Cop. *Schwaigers challenges me to give Three Big Summary Teachings of Dr, one of which is "God works with sinful men in spite of their flesh to do great things." *Another big teaching idea comes up: We are to BECOME the Word. *Schwaigers asks to be taught. *I post the first hour of Advanced Class ?79 on ?Becoming the Word? because Dr is a better teacher than me. *Then it?s the ?tattered remnants? of God?s Word in the stars. http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=1226063003&p=2 *************************************************** Page 3 The ?other six? manifestations comes up for discussion, which led to the next thread. http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=1226063003&p=3 *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** The spinoff next became Schwaigers thread ?The Other Six Manifestations...? *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** *************************************************** Page 1 Very detailed discussion of manifestations http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=8506086013&p=1 *************************************************** Page 2 Marble cake model of the many villains http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=8506086013&p=2 *************************************************** Page 3 Jesus in the desert learning Jesus Christ?s PRESENT ministry JC Quotas The ?Saving Private Ryan? model to aid in forgiving leadership who went crazy http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=8506086013&p=3 *************************************************** Page 4 SIT fluency http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=8506086013&p=4 *************************************************** So that?s where we?ve been, or at least, this is what I've been doing here for the past two months. Who?s up for some spiritual understanding? . . . . . [This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 3:19.]

alfakat and vickles, I see thousands coming back to PFAL. That's plenty. Once some thousands have mastered PFAL the principles and truths will be efectually made available to all who desire to love God. In these classes NO ONE ever gets missed! NO ONE!

WordWolf, This again is only a partial answer to your encyclopedic set. We?ll whittle it down yet. Before I answer, let me reiterate something Seaspray brought up. What?s at stake here, whether we rely on PFAL supplied scriptures or on tradition supplied scriptures, what?s at stake here (sorry Goey) is the POWER! To rob us of the power the adversary has employed VERY SUBTLE changes and corruptions in the texts and in our understand. One word twisted here in the text, one cultural twist centuries ago there, one religious cultural bias in the reader here, all adding up to a text that can?t help the reader over the hump in believing: ?...you mean it?s Christ in ME TOO!? ...you mean ALL the things he did and greater!? ...you mean when I am weak than I TOO am strong?!? When I say tattered I mean SPIRITUALLLY, not physically. Most of the scriptures have been successfully reconstructed, but then again, Eve had MOST of it right too! I?m talking some subtle tattered remnants. When I say ?tattered remnants? it?s the figure of speech exagggggerationus used to draw attention. We were taught that just ONE word added, subtracted or changed and the results can be catastrophic. Change just ONE word and you no longer have God?s Word. In a translation EVERY word gets changed just about, but that doesn?t seem to bother people too much. Did you see the post I did on the Word written in the stars getting corrupted? How did THAT happen. It got into tattered remnants up there somehow. God?s Word in the stars became a tattered remnant, a corruption of what it was originally. How could that be? The answer will help you understand how I apply ?tattered remnants? to the admittedly fairly well preserved and transmitted copies of the originals. ******this is something I posted a month ago on another thread: ****** rascal, You wrote: ?Hey Mike...When/how were the stars corrupted?? That?s a GREAT question! I?ve been wanting to bring this point up for a while. I?ve pointed out some of the textual problems with very early sloppy copying and deliberate forgeries that prevent us from really receiving the Bible as it?s passed down through the ages. What we have is corrupted. Lots of 5-senses scholars try to fix this, but they are trying to match wits with the devil who corrupted it, and they are no match for the big important details like power. Even Bullinger, who fixed tons of problems, was outwitted on SIT and as a result, administrations too. However, an additional factor I?ve only glossed over is the religious bias we all bring to the scriptures. Even if we had perfect copies of the originals, and perfect translations, there STILL is a huge problem with religious bias, language evolution, and cultural bias. This may not seem like a huge impediment, but the stars prove it. With the stars there?s no corruption in the texts. Yes the stars do slowly move, but not so much in a few thousand years. So, by the time of Babel, or even of Moses nothing had changed in the ?text? in the sky. What had changed was the environment. The spiritual environment of bias was one of complete convolution. It thwarted God?s Word just as much as the king in Jeremiah 36 who cut up the scroll God had inspired. So God just reissued that scroll with many words added. The same with the new format after the stars, the written Word has many words added, the Mystery. It took a while, but it finally was complete. So the ?corruption? in the stars was really in the eyes of the beholders. ***************** posted May 03, 2003 18:40 **************** When you put your ?Holy Bible? into your hands, open it up, and start reading the words, it?s not REALLY God?s Word you?re reading. You?re reading a version of a translation of a critical compilation of a large set of fragments of ?spiritually? poor copies of the original documents. I see many surety challenges in the chain that connects me to the originals. (1) The first is in the accurate copying and complete transmission of the originals. This was done by a reprobate church that had forsaken Paul. Peter?s dying last words also mention how most people were misunderstanding Paul. (2) I next must assume that ALL the originals were found, i.e. the Canon is complete, and there are no missing books. There are LOTS of theologians who will assure me I need not worry about this one, but I can?t find the Biblical proof of this after 30 some years of looking. I see two things that took place in Jer.36 when God?s revealed written Word was destroyed by being cut with a knife and thrown into a fire. The first thing in Jer.36 is that although God?s written revealed (Biblical-5senses) Word was utterly destroyed, nonetheless His Word, God?s Word, the Word of God (spiritual) continued on uninterrupted in His mind. The next thing in Jer.36 is that some time after this destruction of the written Word, God re-issued it and in a new format, with many words added. Similarly, when His Word written in the stars was corrupted He re-issued it in a new format: hand writing. The time between destruction and re-issue for the later seems to be hundreds of years between the tower of Babel and Moses. For the Jer.36 incident it seems to be days or weeks. I can be reasonably content with the Canon as is because Dr was content to work within it. Otherwise I?d have to find a theologian to help me over this hump who wouldn?t put me to sleep. (3) The assembling of the critical texts leaves me with making choices as to which of the footnotes in my Interlinear I want to run with and which ones ignore. Again, the assortment of would-be authoritarian theologians is abundant. I can get out of deciding here by deferring to whoever seems to be the best... that decade. One major problem here is that there?s no way a church can be like minded if all the permutations of these footnote alternative renderings are considered. SOMEONE would have to step forward and be the authority as to which EXACT Greek text is going to be their text. As far as this step goes, it?s every man for himself. There IS NO authoritative Greek text, there?s many. I must rely on middle men scholars and academics to sort through all this for me. (4) The next steps are the killers ? translation and versionating. Here I must again rely on an army of competing generals, all saying slightly different things, and NONE of them PFAL grads. All the above steps add up and subtly influence what I can put in to my hands if I place my trust in the Zondervan route of the above theologians and scholars. If it weren?t for Dr getting my attention in the first place, I?d have NEVER given a rat?s a$$ to know the best way through the 1-2-3-4 step minefield above. I was a cosmic scientist type rebelling from the RC doctrine and the Bible was the LAST thing I was ever going to check out. Dr got my attention, taught me to love God, His Word, and His Son Jesus Christ, and he turned me loose to check it all out for myself the best I could. I worked the 1-2-3-4 minefield for 27 years continually judging which scholars or teams of scholars to trust when my abilities failed. Finally I came back to PFAL and realized that all that work was done for me and I need only trust Dr to have brought forth that re-issued format altered Authorized by God set of writings. We?re ALWAYS going to be making massive decisions as to who supplies us with God?s Word until we come back to PFAL and see that?s no longer necessary. Instead of spending all my time OBTAINING the Word of God, I must now only rightly divide this Word, and apply this Word, and obey this Word, and become this Word. [This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 0:45.]

WordWolf, I've NEVER said Hebrews in the KJV was completely unreliable. When it was supposed to be read, I read it, and learned a lot from it. I still look at it from time to time. I'm out of time for now, but I realize I'm not done with your inventory. Will be back soon.

dizzydog You wrote: ?You have a yardstick that you are measuring EVERYONE else with called PFAL.? PFAL is not a yardstick for judgment, it?s a tool to get a job done that God?s called us grads out to. What you perceive as judgement is my assertion that we have not finished deriving the huge benefits God Himself placed in the PFAL writings. I think we all have fallen short in receiving these benefits, and that should be GOOD news to you, because it means there?s more benefits to receive. You then wrote: ?Unless God is showing you all the things in my heart you have little to criticize me with. You still don't know me.? God IS SHOWING me, by various methods, that ALL grads have fallen short of this GREAT potential of ?all nine all the time.? It?s not a specific judgement of you. We?re all in this together. You wrote of me: ?My best efforts to communicate with him have done little more than make me irritated again.? I might save you some trouble. If you only goal in communication with me is to see me drop my message or stop posting data on this thread, then you need to find another goal. You wrote: ?Whether we measure up to his (Mike's) standards seems to be the real issue.? Like I said above, the REAL issue is whether or not we?re going to correct the problem of having so much of Dr teachings slip by us or leak out by coming back to PFAL and mastering it. Anyone who refuses will get no condemnation form me, but no expectation of assistance in the job we grads are called out to. It?s not a matter of being ?good enough? at all. It?s a matter of being strong enough and knowledgeable enough to get the job done. You then wrote: ?Mike preaches VPW. Ever notice how little Jesus Christ comes up in his 700 some odd posts.? Let?s be honest. When you first met me a month ago you hadn?t read any of my 900 some posts. Now you say you?ve done a survey of them all and you see my JC Quota low? Did you REALLY check them all? You wrote: ? If Jesus Christ is even mentioned it is in the context of something he is quoting from VPW.? That should be expected, seeing my message is that the printed materials from The American Christian Press (Dr?s books) are closer in accuracy to the originals than anything Zondervan or traditional publishers can supply us. ************************* Steve Lortz You swrote: ?When Mike talks about "PFAL", he isn't really talking about the class presented by Wierwille. Mike is talking about the misinterpretations fed to him by his "advanced Christ formed within" spirits.? Steve, you admitted this subject of ?Christ Formed? is new to you. Like your premature question on Blue Book page 24, I think you?re a bit premature on judging this one too. You then wrote: ?Mike admits that there is a spirit, other than holy spirit, that has been "born" and is "growing" in his mind.? Surely, Steve, you?ve heard of the ?new man nature.? That?s what this is. I think the newness of the nomenclature spooked you, so to speak. *************************** Thomas Heller You wrote: ?If you believe in his words, why don't you do as he said when he said that the Word was to be our only center of reference for learning and not what men wrote about it, including himself?? I am doing as he said. Your question arises from our difference in how we identify exactly WHERE God?s revealed Word can be found. What do you do when you want to put God?s Word into your hand? You put an approximation into your hand. I?m saying we have something better than that to put in our hands. This is something I posted a few months ago here: ?I sometimes challenge friends to consider the following. I have presented the notion that Dr's books are authoritative, and that they are just as good as having God Almighty standing before us speaking the same words. If this is not true, then it's the sad case that you do not have a single book in your library that is bigger than you. All your books, and every passage in them are subject to new "discovery" as being not quite true. You can white-out and change ANYTHING that is in print if you happen to come across some other evidence that convinces you otherwise. Then, that very same evidence is subject to similar challenges in the future, and so on. ?Can you to find in your library one single book that's "bigger" than you? Can you find one that you dare not alter or disagree with, but that you can rise up to because it's bigger than you? I think you can, that is, if you still have your PFAL books.? When we followed Dr instructions to make the Bible, God?s revealed Word, our only rule for faith and practice, we did it with the available traditional materials like versions, translations, interlinears etc. When we consulted that ?only rule? we had in our MINDS the abstract notion of the originals, but what we had in our HANDS was the modern traditional approximate hand-me-downs from the academic/religious world. What I?m saying is that we ALSO have an exact (almost), given in English, revelation of God?s Word, ie Bible, RULE for faith and practice in the PFAL writings. This rule is NOT abstract. We can put the books in our hands. *********************** You then wrote: ?In an attempt to communicate with you, I was referring to the "Word" as Dr. Wierwille said he referred to the Word, not any version of the bible, but the original Word as it was God-breathed originally before it was ever copied in any way. That was the Word that he said he dedicated his life to getting back to, and that was the Word that he said we should be getting back to...? It?s precisely HOW to get back to the originals that I am addressing. You say by further 5-senses (mixed with God?s revelation and guidance). I say that that job is all done, because Dr said so in Oct?82 in the same minutes he put the mantle on Craig. I believe the job of ?getting back to? has been accomplished and is TOTALLY done for us in the PFAL writings. It was by revelation that it was gotten to and it was by revelation that God told Dr the job was done after 40 years of Dr believing the 1942 promise. You say I?ve lost my grip, but I say it?s because of the recent grip I got on the OPEN PFAL books that I see just how much has leaked out of everyone?s memory, including mine. ******************************** chwester, How do you handle pages 34 and 116 in the Green Book? ****************************** Goey, You wrote: ?Calm down Rascal...? I like that. Hebrews was written by an Author Who had complete foreknowledge of these times we live in now. You guys are always assuming that everything?s a logical argument. Some things aren?t arguments, just presentations or announcements. Some things are demonstrations of internal consistency, but look like circular logic if taken as theorems.

Well folks, check out the record on this thread when I tried to bring up the subject of our relationship with Jesus Christ. And when I bring Galatians 4:19 and Christ formed within it?s said to be devilish. You?re speculating on my JC Quota rating. I challenge you to search my record here and get an accurate figure. I will be getting back to Jesus Christ soon, his return, his being formed in us, our relationship with him, and our imitation of him by becoming the Word like he did. All of these items I've brought up here in this one thread. Meanwhile it seems people want to talk more about me than the page references and quotes I post. When calculating my quota, please don't count the sections where my threads were derailed to be discussions about me. This thread IS supposed to be about what Dr taught us. Hold on to your JC Quota Counters boys. I want to steer this on topic. ***************************** One of the great goals I had for this thread was reached a little bit ago when this ?Christ Formed In You? teaching got highlighted in relation to ?Christ in you the hope of glory? and how they both pertain to the Physical/Spiritual realms. A little repetition wont hurt, so This will be emphasized again soon. The teaching ?Christ Formed In You? can be found on page 6 of this thread, about one quarter of the way down the page, and at: http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=3656073772&p=6 ****************** Another great goal of this thread is to emphasize the difference in Dr?s vocabulary regarding ?Bible? being associated with the 5-senses realm and ?Word of God? being associated with the spiritual realm. This is what Dr writes in "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" on page 27: "This law works with mathematical exactness and scientific precision. Anything that is obtained through the five senses?seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching?is in the senses world and relates itself to the flesh. The Bible is in the senses world, and as such the law of God requires that the Bible feed the mind which is included in the Biblical word ?flesh.? So if the Bible is in the category of the senses world and thus can feed only the mind..." ****************************** There are many posts above that I?ve only had a chance to scan. It?s too late now to absorb much, so I?ll try again tomorrow. I don?t mean to ignore anyone.

Tom, Here?s take two, another attempt to answer your question. I believe your estimate has slowly drifted up too high of how God-breathed the KJV, NIV, Critical Greek texts, and ancient fragments really are. I also believe you estimate of how God-breathed some of Dr?s writings really are has drifted down from your initial exposure to PFAL. We all used to believe God gave abundant revelations to Dr, and I do AGAIN believe this. As a result, you?re amazed that I can say what I say because you?ve forgotten that when Dr refers to ?God?s written Word? it could be two different things he means. (1) It could mean the original first century writings in their pristine perfection and the UNDERSTANDING of same in the original, languages, times, and cultures. This is a highly abstract item, and can?t be bought in bookstores, found in libraries, or placed within one book or set of books. It only approximately exists in people?s heads, and it approximately exists in greater degrees in scholar?s heads. When it gets put into paper form it becomes even more a mere approximation. The KJV is a fairly good approximation of God?s Word in written form. (2) It could mean the modern 20th century writings of PFAL which are the fulfillment of the 1942 promise to Dr where God said He?d teach Dr His Word like it had not been known since the first century if he?d teach it to others. What came off the printing presses is FAR closer to the pure Word of God than the received scriptures and their translations and English versions. Not everything Dr wrote was God-breathed but SOME was, and still is!

Tom, I believe that in certain special PFAL writings, though they have VPW's name on them, their REAL author is God. The "scriptures" we buy in bookstores that say "Holy Bible" on the outside are NOT God?s Word, but scholarly approximations of it, reconstructions of it, translations of it. What I say here is consistent with a very close reading of PFAL, but not a loose decades old memory of PFAL. As you compare your memory of what Dr teaches in there, as you compare you memory with what is actually in the WRITTEN text, you?ll see I?m right. Most people?s memory is of the SPOKEN class on film, video, and tape. Most people?s memory has faded. Most people?s memory was originally only partially accurate or complete. The reason I can say what I say is because I have gone back to the actual written text of PFAL and fixed my erroneous memory. These are subtle things we?re talking about here. MUCH has been posted already that you?ve missed. You seem to have been away for a while. BTW, I like what you just posted on the ?Casting Out Spirits? thread. I too was in Manhattan in those same days, early 70?s, seeing the same things you reported. I worked with Ken Barden for Western Union then. Did you know him? He became the Bronx branch leader around ?73. Did you know Plot in Rye back then? I remember you from then. I was with the Burke Brothers in Suffolk.

mj412, It's not just the orange book, it a whole set of them. The orange book is the organizer. Most people (including me) have developed an irritation reaction to this book because of the great number of times they sat through the class (sometimes an unpleasant experience due to the people running it). It?s a ?familiarity breeds contempt? thing I think. This irritation with the orange book went away after I started finding treasures, but I have to admit some of the feelings you described still linger in my head too. They are much less that they were 5 years ago when I came back, but I can relate to this feeling of negativity towards the orange book. I regard it in me as a bad habit I?m breaking. The Holy Spirit Book is the encyclopedia, but it also has a heart felt opening section that is far less detailed. It was from reading this section, before I took the class, that I SIT for the first time. The Blue Book, Green Book, etc. are the heart of the class. It?s in these simple chapters that I see MUCH light streaming daily. Many topics in these chapters NEVER come up in the film class. Some I found I had never read or never carefully read. There are vast unexplored regions in these books for MOST grads. Then there are Way Magazine articles. A subscription to the magazine was given to every student, and a first issue was part of the written materials they received with the class. These articles are very similar to the collateral chapters mentioned above. Plus, mj412, there?s the presentation of these things. Most leaders (OLGs) have not themselves seen the spiritual beauty in these PFAL writings, and hence, they are never presented to the rest of us in a positive and loving light. These same leaders, in previous decades, were EXPERTS at presenting PFAL but we all drifted away from it slowly, and leadership totally failed to show us the treasures in mastering PFAL. So far it looks like I may have failed to show these treasures, but this thread does have many items of interest. Maybe I should do a review of all the hidden PFAL treasures just this ?Ubiquitous? thread has discussed. I?m not ready to give up trying, so maybe I will do such a review or summary, kinda like the summaries WordWolf did for me, only this time with my authoritative spin.

vickles, Yes, I do understand that. Maybe for some here I'm just settinng the stage for a future return to PFAL, after other things are sampled, and they've had a chance to compare things with PFAL. For the OLGs who left in the late 80's, I'd like to think their sampling outside PFAL is done. I'd like to think OLGs are ready to come back to this Word we were taught in PFAL. [This message was edited by Mike on June 06, 2003 at 22:35.]

mj412, It?s not that I?m afraid to give up PFAL. In many ways I DID give it up in the 80?s and 90?s, but I decided to come back to it. It?s not a fear thing, it?s the love I see in the text. It?s God?s love. My decision to come back to PFAL was very deliberate, and NOT a response to any kind of pressure at all. Just the opposite, I was pressured to NOT come back. I had good reasons to come back, and those who wanted to prevent this had lousy reasons. I came back to PFAL of my own deliberate will.

vickles, I just answered some of your question above in my WordWolf response. In the 70's I was not like other grads in that I sampled lots of other sources back then. I went to churches often and had long discussions with the leaders. I went to colleges and bookstores and got into discussions. I collected many books not al all related to The Way or PFAL. I continued this to the mid 80?s and then I INCREASED my outside sampling of sources. I did learn a lot. I learn more in PFAL now, though.