Mike

Exy, It's been fun using the board like a chat room. I'm thankful that we can still talk. I need to go to work for a while.

Exy, Here?s a soul affecting situation. I used to often think about this, LONG before the meltdowns. Imagine in Acts the reactions believers must have had to wrestle with regarding the Epistles of Paul. In some cities there were quite a lot of people who were directly persecuted by him, or who had a close relative persecuted or even killed by Paul and/or one of Paul?s assistants, or who had a friend or neighbor who had run-ins with Paul. Imagine the wrestling they would have to go through when the early Epistles came out as to whether to regard them as God-breathed or not, like the Thessalonians did (I Thess.2:13). Imagine how this wrestling in their minds would tip against Paul as the later Epistles are written while he?s IN JAIL! It would look like Paul was out of fellowship or not believing or something. I used to think through these dilemmas that MUST have really happened! Similar dilemmas occurred for relatives of Uriah and Bathseba. I imagine it would be tough for them to hang framed Psalms on their walls. So, Exy, I?ve put myself in your shoes a lot, long before I ever read your posts here. That?s why I say there?s ample reward for those who take friendly fire on the chin. ************ I?ve heard an urban legend that seems to make sense. If an Army Sergeant abruptly wakes up a recruit, and the recruit slugs the Sergeant one time while waking up, that Sergeant MUST ?take it on the chin? and no punishment can be dealt to the recruit for their understandable lashing out under those conditions. The legend goes that this is written up in black and white in Army regulations. Regardless if the legend is fact or not, it seems like a good regulation to me. Exy, as you?re waking up to the GREAT difference between Dr?s flesh and the writings God helped him do, I will ?take it on the chin? any mopping the floor you have to do with me. I understand. But it?s TIME! It?s TIME for us ALL to wake up. Rise and SHINE in the crisp clear morning air, with the greatness of The Word of God.

All right, I'll avoid that expression for your sake. But you WILL find perfect justice from God.

Exy, I?ve bled my heart out to you on these things. There IS justice and reward and compensation FOR YOU in all this. I could go back and find the posts I think would calm you down if you read them carefully. I do NOT want to antagonize you or anyone else. I myself have found healing and the ability to forgive in the PFAL writings, not in my memories of VP. He knew the writings were bigger than him, and when we figure that out too, we?ll all feel a lot better. Again, my heart goes out to you, but your situation does not negate the good news I have to deliver.

Cynic, No, I have not rejected God's Word. I have rejected YOUR point of view. I did consider a rough equivalent of your point of view DEEPLY on many occasions, starting in 1978. I had looked into these things much earlier than most other grads, ten years before the first major meltdown in the late 80?s. From what I have observed, I?ve considered more points of view and scenario permutations than most of you here. I?ve looked at all sides. I?ve looked both in the Word and in the ministry situations. Ten years before John S did the ?Adultery? paper I went through, as a twig leader with my twig, everything we could find in KJV and Youngs on the subject, just like the main body of text in that famous adultery paper. In addition to that, my twig dealt with 10 of the 14 subjects that appeared as ?appendixes? to the adultery paper. THEN I had ten years to sit on it all and integrate it into the Word is was still learning from my KJV before the stuff hit the fan with the adultery paper in ?87-88. It still hit me like a ton of bricks when it came out, not for it?s doctrinal content (that was old hat to me by then) but for it?s indicative nature. It (paper and cover-up) indicated just how spiritually mature everyone wasn?t in ALL of upper leadership one and two years after Dr's death. I accepted the Word Dr taught me from PFAL and in which I found verification from working my KJV in the good old days. I now accept the Word of God that has been freshly revealed to me in the PFAL writings.

vickles, You wrote: ?Where do you think the politics were coming from? You would think that if vpw was truly the mog that he would have put a stop to it. Instead he loved the worship everyone gave him. He promoted it, mike!!!!? In the Bible there are LOTS of examples where a man of God was UNABLE to control the politics going on. Look at how Jesus worked with Judas. Many more details about Judas come out when all the records on him are compared. He had some problems and he spread them to the other apostles. Peter also had problems. There are incidents in Jesus band where politics got thick. It came from the adversary, who, OF COURSE, is going to influence where it counted most to him: WHERE THE ACTION WAS. Ditto for HQ. Dr was often straightening out political skirmishes between leaders. The adversary struck hard at HQ because that?s where the action that MOST threatened him was taking place. Dr?s believing and toughness held it to a ?minimum? but after he died all hell broke loose. ********* As for the worship and him loving it, that?s pretty human, isn?t it? Another factor to consider with this, though, is that it IS proper to respect our elders in the Word... it says so in the Bible to give double honor and to remember who taught us the Word. Well, with the non-spiritual eyes you had at that time, you couldn?t discern the difference between proper love and respect from the counterfeit hero worship and out-of-bounds respect. So you don?t know when this respect was occurring or when the distorted hero worship of him (which DID happen at times) was occurring. Another factor to consider is this: in your zeal to kill this Word we were given in yourself and others, you don?t keep track efficiently of the good stories regarding Dr and these difficult areas. I have heard a story of one Corps person who was setting up Dr?s room for an Advanced Class in San Diego. This person says that Dr confided with her that he was somewhat embarrassed at times with al the fussing to get everything physically just right with his accommodations, but he allowed them to carry on because it was the love they had for the Word and the thankfulness to him AND God that they were expressing. The fact that the expression was at times overboard and embarrassing to him was only a small glitch compared to NOT having that love and thankfulness for the Word. There are a lot of VERY good stories out there about Dr that don?t get typed up on this board, but GOD remembers.

I'm beginning to think that this thread is getting too big. I say this for a few reasons. One is that the number of pages may hit a maximum. Another is that the number of ?views? may be bothering people. It kind looks a little top heavy on the chart compared to the other threads, and I think this might be an unnecessary irritant to people here who want the board to reflect an antiPFAL image. Maybe after I post my page references to the Spir/Nat dichotomy we can let this thread retire and move on to other things. P.S. If so many derailments hadn't happened, most of which change the topic to "me" instead of the Nat/Spir thing, then we probably would have finished long ago.

Exy, There are sins FAR more subtle and sad than foul sex. Internal pride can be festering unchallenged in great external rule followers. Hurting another's chances to hear the Word because we have a private beef with God's messenger is a pretty arrogant position. Nurturing hate instead of love is not what you want frozen in video tape. [This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 13:11.]

The fruit of Dr's life is that there are THOUSANDS of people all over the world who now SIT and know God and His Son much better than if Dr hadn?t lived. THOUSANDS of people are thankful to God for teaching Dr so he could teach us. There are a few TENS of people bellyaching and boo hooing over what NOW shouild be essentially nothing, and when we boil this down to 1st person complaints we might not even have tens. I know that there are some brutal crime victims who could have been MUCH more horribly hurt by some incident 20 years ago that ANYTHING that ever went on at HQ. I believe that if those victims, some even physically damaged or disfigured, received proper counseling including NOT rehashing the incident ad infinitum on public discussion boards, then they are probably enjoying MORE healing than the established moaners and groaners here. I can?t think of a better way to NOT get healed than wallowing in the memory of a hurt year after year and getting others to wallow in it. If Dr hadn?t come along and given us the Word, those here with this great predilection to hate and moan would probably have been hurt MUCH worse by somebody else in some religion or school or company or relationship. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

The reason Dr APPEARED to be mean and too tough at times is because we were so 5-senses oriented and obstinate. We were to Dr like the children of Israel were to Moses: stiff-necked. Dr had to get tough with us like Jesus got tough at times with his disciples. Oh, yeah, then unlike Jesus, Dr also sinned. Telling the difference between Dr?s righteous tough love and his sin was beyond our ability to discriminate because we were not spiritually minded. Oh yeah, we were thinking about spiritual things all the time, but from a 5-senses perspective, and not God?s spiritual perspective. We lacked spiritual understanding and power, so we could not tell when Dr was in fellowship and dealing with difficult troops, or if he was out of fellowship and stuck in his flesh, living for a time in his dark side. We all have a dark side, and those who think they have none are the darkest. The question is HOW well and how quickly do we LEAVE living in that darkness when we see from the Word that something?s wrong. Because we were less than ?all nine all the time? operators, we couldn?t properly discriminate what was TRUELY right and wrong, only make 5-senses guesses based on partial knowledge of the Word and traditional religious upbringing. This is also the same reason why no one was able to stand up to genuine abuses when the did occur, because they were no Nathan with no revelation. With revelation, ANYONE could have halted ANYTHING going on that was TRUELY, in God?s eyes, jeopardizing God?s plans with The Way. Not only were we spiritually unqualified to spot these subtle things as they were going on back then, NOW there are two additional factors preventing people from a spiritually sound assessments of these things. One is that they all happened 20 years ago (talking about Dr not Craig). That?s a long time for distortions to creep into memories. The other factor is that most grads are even LESS capable now that they were 20 years ago, due to the tremendous leakage and adulteration to this Word God taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL. Our only hope it to return to the books and see for ourselves the work that GOD has wrought for us. This Word will soothe all the hurts.

Exy, This skewed perception can be changed, if you would stop reinforcing the dark side image you have of him. How would you like it if someone froze on video tape YOUR worst "old man nature" moments? Do you think they'd really get to know the real YOU better by replaying that video over and over?

rascal, I DID see his dark side, but was not too surprised because I John 1 guarantees it's there and Romans 7 says Paul had a dark side too. I see MY dark side and thank God for it's eventual demise. Do you ever look at YOUR dark side? [This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 2:10.]

rascal, You wrote: ?Your version of vp as the stern general with a job to do makes me want to puke..... ? That?s probably because it?s a new idea to you. Give it some time to settle. The adversary was all over the ministry trying constantly to get it to stop delivering this Word to people. It was a very intense struggle. Working at HQ or going into the Corps or going out WOW should have been viewed like signing up for the front lines in a war. In the early 70?s we were told this very thing about the spiritual action being pretty tough on the front lines. Before I went to work at HQ I was told this and I pondered it deeply. Even still I was surprised at how difficult it was at HQ. The mind games and politics there was very thick, even in the 76-78 period I was there. I saw how so many people would get into head trips about the great importance of THEIR spiritual project over all others. I too was influenced by these spirits at times there. It was thick. To look at Dr?s job of coordinating that large company with all those attacks both from without and from within, for Dr to be ANYTHING less that a VERY tough, mean general would mean certain victory for the adversary. Because Dr was so tough (and for many other reasons) he did get the job done. God?s revelation was put into written form, printed into thousands of copies, and distributed to thousands of locations around the world. Your nausea can be alleviated some by believing that those who were hit with friendly fire, or who SEEMED to get expended, will be more than rewarded by God for their contributions to this successful undertaking of God?s to get His in the world again in a form perfect enough to get the perfectly renewed mind built in us. Dr didn?t single handedly get this job done. He had a lot of help. Now it?s time for us to get OUR job done: Mastering this Word that came via PFAL.

EWB, The clear answers I'm giving here are only clear to those who obey the revelation God gave Dr at the end of his life that we must master PFAL. The clear answers are in PFAL, not my posts alone. You've got to have your head in PFAL to get clearness from me. If you chose to disobey God and wing it on you own, and with your own chosen teachers, guiding yourself by your own light, then you cannot understand me.

I thought that maybe there are other explanations for the disappearance of the Wierwille apologists, but this is backed up by evidence, and not a guess. They were probably really run off by the gross negativity sometimes here (it almost works on me sometimes). I?m sure some had simply run out of bullets. Bless their hearts, but unless they?ve been hard at work mastering PFAL for some time, they just are no match for the likes of the PFAL antagonists here. Sometimes I?m just barely ahead of the latest twists that come up here, where I read something one day in PFAL and (BOOM!) someone here challenges me on that same thing the next day, and I?d have been hard pressed for the answer had I not been currently studying. I?d like to think the Wierwille apologists are reading these discussions and learning to crack their books again, and not rely on old paradigms and memories of what?s supposed to be in there. I?d like to think they are having a grand time mastering PFAL and finally finding out why Dr told us to do it so many times. The evidence that this guess has foundation is that I get e-mails occasionally from them. Once in a blue moon they even post a note here to the effect that I?m doing a good job. A couple of people signed up at GS just to get my e-mail address and support my efforts and have never posted. Won?t Mark be happy if they all come back to GreaseSpot in the great strength God is giving to all who come back to PFAL? [This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 1:15.]

Ginger, Yes, I too thought Mark?s comment on page 22 was a bit bizarre, as if he misses the Wierwille apologists I ?ran off.? Thanks for your pointing this out.

Dan, The way I defined OLG was to include WOW's and Advanced Class grads and anyone who had a chance to grow spiritually after first taking the class and start functioning by 1982 or so, and in the SPIRITUAL Body of Christ, and not so much the body of the 5-senses corporate structure.

Steve, Again, because you heart is not engaged, you misunderstood my criticism of your approach. No you didn?t write the words ?Mike, you?re possessed.? You seem to focus on technicalities, and not heart. Technically, it's factual that you did not wite that I was possessed. Technically, you DID write that I was listening to spirits, so that could mean possession, oppression, or phenomena. So, technically, if I were to be correct in describing your approach on this point, then I?d have had to say that you wrote that I was afflicted by one to those three I just mentioned. But, Steve, that?s NOT what I meant when I complained. What I meant was that you were resorting to a device that Craig and the Corpse Henchmen often employed in their intimidation campaigns. It?s the device of dropping the particulars of a conversation, debate, or argument, and accusing the opponent of being under the influence of spirits, and therefore all the particulars of the topic can be thrown out. As time went by most people lost track of the differences between all these three types of influence and possession became the only one many could think of. I?ve complained here a lot of this confusion of possession with oppression. If you look real hard, you?ll see that ONE of the times I cried ?Foul? at your approach I used the phrase ?possessed or oppressed? to cue you and/or any careful readers. So there?s this device of ?intimidation and info sweeping? that ruined many interactions between people, because it worked so well, and the users were seduced into the power it brought item. They?d get real skilled at saying ?You?re possessed? without saying it. If that exact sentence were said over and over it would lose it?s punch, but if it were subtly implied, and never overtly stated, then it would actually carry MORE punch because then there?s the element of uncertainty in the hearer. Hinting also provides a back door for the issuer in case something goes wrong, and he needs to take it back. It?s easier to take back a hint than a proclamation. So, instead of labeling your approach the ?intimidation and info sweeping? technique, which is an accurate descriptive name, I called your game by it?s more intimately known and more crude title of the ?You?re possessed!? technique. Steve, I think it?s crude and stupid to dredge up the ?You?re possessed!? technique. When I was addressing to the spirits you got this from and letting them know I know who they are, the ones who ruined the ministry, you mistakenly thought I was directing my comments to you. BTW, I feel the same about Columbo, and that?s why a cheap imitation of him doesn?t do it for me. Have you found any more understanding on those terribly difficult Blue Book pages 23 and 24? Have you found any more passages of Dr?s that can shed light on his terribly cryptic comments on those two pages? This may be one of the most read books in the ministry, and yet it totally slipped past all of us that pages 23 and 24 of the Blue Book don?t make sense. Columbo will be proud of you, Steve, for spotting this glaring error.

I'm getting some data ready so's this thread's topic steers away from me and back onto items that slipped passed us years ago. We're witnessing now one on the mechanisms by which things slipped passed us then. It's not focusing on the Word but on personalities. Looking with the 5-senses all about we can conclude that God Almighty is a mean, mean, mean God. Sure, just look at how devoted to His laws He is. When a baby falls out of a 20 story building and hits the sidewalk it DIES! Don?t you think a loving God would suspend His laws, like gravity, for a innocent baby!? But NO! Innocents are mercilessly killed every day! The above paragraph is HEARTILY believed by a significant percentage of the population, and they think they have a lot of proof supporting their belief. I don?t believe it because I?ve seen that there is are spiritual laws and there are natural laws that God has set up, that IN THE LONG RUN will be best. In the meantime, those who are unaware of His ultimate plan are prone to think He is a mean, mean, mean God. Ditto for the job Dr was given to do. It was a job that necessitated going against the god of this world in a way he hasn?t been challenged for 2000 years. Tough generals in wars MUST be mean, mean, mean or they lose the war. Volunteers who join the generals staff should be prepared for a rough ride. Anyone who thinks it?s going to be a sweet fellowship picnic is not paying attention to the spiritual realities. We?ve got to look at the spiritual side of what happened to us in our Way experience. When it finally dawns on you folks just exactly what Dr was sent to do for God and us, and that he succeeded, then all these perplexing situations that did arise will melt away. They?ll be GONE!

karmicdebt, If you had been spiritually minded back then you?d have successfully fought against the abuses as they occurred. But you were no Nathan and neither was anyone else. So now 20 years later you get real spiritual, doing all kinds of detective work to uncover what supposedly went on right under your noses. It?s obvious you didn?t have a lick of genuine spiritual insight then, and there?s nothing but a lot of moaning and groaning that?s happened since then, so I wouldn?t put any stock into your spiritual insight now. It?s all 5-senses, and under the supervision of that god who got control of the Natural Realm from Adam. All your ?rooting out error and evil? is 20 years late, and the adversary has blinded the effort to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I?ve painstakingly shown here that the system of TVTs that developed in the late 70?s and early 80?s was extremely counterfeit and devilish. THAT?S where you should be rooting out things. The books are pure.

rascal, I was never higher on the totem pole that a tc also. I don?t have a heart to ignore you, but when you say things we already talked about and/or that are so off the wall, then, yes, I refrain from responding to the words you post. I read them, wish I had the time to go into ALL the details to set you straight, and then make a decision to move on or not. I have to do this dozens of times whenever I sit down and deal with a handful of posts. You are not alone in the filtering process time demands of me. I do read them. I find your attitude toward Dr repugnant and sinful and off the Word. There is only one thing manifesting itself from your heart in your posts and it?s not love to God or appreciation as to how master4fully He arraigned for us to hear the Word in the richness we did. There is only one thing manifesting itself from your heart in your posts and it?s bitterness/revenge/hatred. I suggest you consider dedicating your life to something positive, rather than defining yourself by what you hate. Like my suggestion to Steve, try starting a thread ADVOCATING something positive like ?...whatsoever things are of good report, think on THESE things...? If you try, you will quickly see that you HAVE no positive message to offer, not REALLY. You are not building up anything, except a literary skill for tearing down. Try building up something. It?s a much more useful skill. [This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 13:34.]

Steve, ...THAT'S PFAL! The 5-senses mastery is the first step (AC Key #4). This gives us the 5-senses meaning that God intended. THEN, after we do that, God has other things to reveal. I don't look to spirits (there's that sneaky "You're possessed!" line of yours again) for the spiritual understanding of PFAL, I ask THE Holy Spirit, my Daddy. Steve, your modus operundi is out in the open. You will take in everything I say, and you will maneuver everything you write to either overtly or covertly (this latest was covert) say that I'm possessed or oppressed. Did you learn this from Craig Martindale? You are imitating him to the ?T? and it stinks. A lot of other people have smelt what you have dealt here, and you should be ashamed. You are the TWI-2 spirit that we all know we don?t want. You are what went wrong with the ministry. You are the many villains that ruined things on the field thousands of miles from root locations. Let?s see how many more ploys you mount to avoid dealing with the data and concentrate on my ?spiritual problems.? You didn?t answer my question about whether you read my other posts not addressed to you. When you started that idiotic thread to pry some admission from me months ago it looked to be the case that you were entirely unaware of the gist of what others were saying and about why I was keeping silent. You?re myopic and stuck in a tunnel vision where you cannot err in your reading but I can. Yet you avoid the mass of 5-senses details to the contrary. You have no comment on your HUGE recent error in thinking I was turned off to the 5-senses approach? You avoid the data and the details of what I post, EVEN TO YOU, and just chug along with your cheap imitation of Peter Falk?s ?Columbo.? [This message was edited by Mike on June 13, 2003 at 13:36.]

mj412, Please lighten up. I was trying to be nice to you, and to let you know that my harsh words on GS were NOT directed at you. My calling you "innocent" was a figure of speech to describe how I don't have ANY feelings toward you of you having blown it in 1985 and hurt thousands of people. My use of the word "innocent" was NOT a judicial pronouncement on my part. It was NOT condescension toward you in any way. I didn?t tell you to shut up. What I did suggest is that you remind yourself that when I sound tough, it?s NOT because I?m want you to feel bad. When I sound tough here it?s because the group of people I AM trying to address are very tough themselves and the only way to get their attention is with a ?ball bat.? That?s a figure of speech again, not advocating violence. Far from shutting up, I was asking you to LIGHTEN UP, and not take my posts as talking about you. Far from shutting up, I was asking you to FIGURATIVELY help me deal with a lot of others who are ?tap tap tapping? and demanding answers of me, like you were a few posts ago. I thought if I showed you how I DID answer you post and it just slipped by you, then you?d feel grateful and help me with the line of posters. So, just the opposite of shutting you up, I was asking you to consider ?going to bat? (another baseball figure of speech) for me a little, kinda like the way Ginger Tea did last night. A few others have done it at times and no one threw them out of the game (baseball again). When I brought up that Jr. High prank mind picture, it was to get a laugh. Come on, mj, let?s be friends. Did you see how reading PFAL means reading the Bible? Did you see how I DID answer your question about Jesus and holy spirit teaching? Please look at my heart, and don?t think I?m up to evil.

Ginger, I was a test driver for a moped company for a few months in the early 1980's, and did long distance trips along the California coast to San Francisco. I might have stayed there, but most of those memories are leaking out fast. I do have a lot of photos from those high adventures to hang on to, though. But other than possibly me, I know of no other. I may have fallen asleep on the lawn there. I did a lot of that. But that brings up the question of ?Why would you ask??

Oakspear, Ditto on the kudos for bringing this to the top. I remember reading this long ago when it first appeared. I too remember Ralph's testemony as outstanding here, especially to the reality of the signs miracles and wonders that WE did, not from the Corporate structure and soap operas, but from the MASSIVE infusion of God's Word and the daring to believe it. I remember Ralph well from then. I was there at Rye too. It was a BIG deal. This is such a massive set of details. I don't want to say any more here. The only time I want to spend on this thread is READING. I just had to say this much.