Mike

Come on, mj, let's get back on topic.

Tom S, Instead of looking behind curtains, try READING!

rascal, You wrote: ?But Mike, the nasty stuff was STILL what was in the heart and mind of the author, the error, the damaging doctrines... the manifestations of his fleshly nature....? You?re going to have that with ANY teacher. At least with Dr it was a little more obvious. With other teachers their flaws can be oh so subtle. And you don?t know the relative proportions of what went on in Dr?s mind. I see lots of love and care for people. I refuse to erase that. ******** You wrote: ?Simple skillfull editing through the years does not make it *Godly* direction.? That?s RIGHT! It was inspiration and revelation, not mere 5-senses editing. ******* You wrote: ?Once having realised that vpw was a flawed man of the flesh, with flawed doctrine....you are finally free to embark upon that learning path where The perameters and boundaries whithin which God is able to work are increased... ...Life is much better outside of that box.? I tried this, on and off, over the decades. I did this when many in the Corps were insulating themselves from all else ionside the TVT box. I did this bigtime, and in an increasing fashion from 1987 to 1998. I?m DONE with trying this method. I came back to PFAL after seeing that there is NOTHING out there worth dedicating my life to ... NOTHING! I?m very happy with the spaciousness of the PFAL paradigm. From your point of view outside PFAL this is not apparent. It?s only by coming back to PFAL that the greatness of what God did for us in that class is visible.

Tom Strange, I?m just a man with a message. There?s nothing special about me to talk about, but my message is one helluva duzzie! You may be confusing me with my message.

rascal, I was referring to how complicated this forum gets when it?s used LIKE a chatroom, the way we just were. Because this forum was designed to be efficient as a discussion board, it suffers greatly in the form of time delay illusions that creep up when posters are mere minutes away from each other, or posting simultaneously. I?ve never been in a computer chat room. I may try it sometime. But if you REALLY want to get to know me, the telephone is much better. I?ll pay.

rascal, But remember too that it's the TVT where these errors lie. It takes time to separate TVT and all it's errors from the pure doctrine that's in written form. It's taken me several years to slowly see that none of the nasty stuff made it into print form.

rascal, Ohhhh the chat room dynamics of this forum!

rascal, Everything's priorities. I think Dr was REALLY talking about the PFAL books in that passage. There?s a reason I think this. In this same chapter as the Forest Queen mine Dr talks about examining something VERY closely, like with a microscope. Just two pages after the Forest Queen passage he writes this: ************************************************************* OMSW p.26 Take a microscope, even a low-powered one. Focus under its lens an eyeglass, for example. You would see some imperfections in the glass, although perhaps only a few. Next, focus a high-powered microscope on the same eyeglass. You will find that the more high-powered the microscope, the greater the imperfections that will be seen in the glass. There are imperfections in anything man-made. This example of the eyeglass demonstrates a principle. The more high-powered the microscope used to observe the works of man, the more imperfect the object appears. On the other hand, the more high-powered the microscope used to look upon something that God formed or made, the more perfect and orderly it appears. The closer the scrutiny of God's Word, the more obvious become its beauty and perfection. It is only a man who uses a poor microscope who never sees the greatness of God's Word. He does not observe it to see its perfection. ************************************************************* Now here comes a little logic. This is Dr?s LAST book I?m quoting from. In his last book Dr says look at anything that?s man-made under a microscope and you see imperfections. Look at something God has done with a microscope and you see perfection. In his last taped teaching (and others like it) Dr says look at the PFAL writings under a microscope... MASTER them. Think there?s a connection? I do. [This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:33.] [This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:35.] [This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:35.]

rascal, I don't understand your post as is. I can't tell what quote you're referring to.

mj412, I?m not the only one who?s told you that your posts are much more readable if you use punctuation and if you proof read it before posting, or after posting. When you did this your posts were much better. I think you are impressed with how much volume you type, and you just don?t notice how difficult the posts are to read. You have proved to us all that you CAN do it. It?s just a mater of courtesy that you do your best to communicate. If you don?t put the effort into writing a little better, LIKE YOU DID BEFORE, then why should I put any effort into reading them? If you keep writing volumes of headache text, eventually my skimming will get so abbreviated I won?t even see it when you use the magical name of Jesus Christ to get your way with me.

EWB, I don't think you understood the nature of my remark to mj412 OR the nature of my relationship with her, and as a result of this profound ignorance I suggest you resign your post as Apology Monitor. Coming here for sheer entertainment seems to preclude thououghness in your book, so I must remind you that your are commenting to me about her with a severe handicap. Let me ask you this: do you read all her posts? I suspect not. I do tolerate massive derailmants, so don't worry about THAT one. But butting into what you know nothing of just waste's everyone's time.

Goey, But remember that logic APPLIED well is the key to getting somewhere. Not all the data is in yet, so your rigorous application of logic is premature. This is like Steve?s question about Blue p.23-24, where not all the data was in yet. Still isn?t all in yet. Same with your more general criticism. You?ve spent so much time and energy trying to pick away at my message when it?s not all even presented yet. Instead of trying to definitively shoot it down immediately, why not play with it and see where THAT line of logic takes you. At the least, you?ll have a more comprehensive data base in which to ultimately shoot it down if you break out of your hostile myopia, if only while waiting my ultimate data deliveries. Remember too, that we are not so much the beings of logic and reason we strut ourselves to be. Do you have the rigorous formal logic that induces your belief in the Bible ready for typing out? How well will it do in the hands of an professional atheistic logician, the kind that?s easy to find on any large university campus these days. I liked your last paragraph, though. It reminds me of a passage in Volume V: ******************************************************* OMSW p.23-24: Hundreds of miners had walked over that mine before, but no one had realized the tremendous treasure so close at hand. None had found it except this one man, who named it ?Forest Queen.? The Forest Queen Mine is like God?s Word. The treasures of God?s Word have been available for centuries. The reason people never find its treasures is that they never dig, never search, at the right place. A person cannot know the greatness of God by his five senses. In order to understand spiritual things a person must have the spirit of God within.? Now the Word of God is the most remarkable document in the whole world. Even though God?s written Word is in the senses realm, a man who believes it can receive holy spirit and begin to understand the spiritual realm. For the most part, people never see the greatness of God?s Word because they are ?natural? people, people without God?s spirit. The natural man never will understand God?s Word; he simply cannot understand it. I wouldn?t criticize a blind man for his analysis of a great masterpiece of art, would I? So why criticize a natural man for his blind attempt to analyze the spiritual truths in the greatest masterpiece of all time, the Word of God? ************************************************************* And looky there! We?re back to MY chosen topic, which is NOT me, but the natural/spiritual perspectives that are crucial to understanding PFAL.

Too Gray Now, So you?ve hardened your heart and cannot change your mind about my message? Please admit that this is the case. You are right, you?ve got it correct, and I must be wrong. THAT?S your stand no matter what new data comes in? If I was moved my the rhetoric you displayed here I?d have become a trinitarian 30 years ago. I?ve heard your speech dozens of times, for several different doctrinal differences. Speeches like that (?get professional help?) are designed to induce fear motivation. Got anything better than fear motivation for me, oh correct one? I suggest you stop leaning on the security of the crowd and the ages and ask yourself just WHY do you believe the Bible and that includes why believe in it?s present received form. Where do you see in the scriptures that God was watching over and protecting forgeries of His Word over the centuries and through the millennia? I know God watches over His Word, spiritually, but I?m asking you about the copies, the translations, the forgeries.

EWB, If, when you want to mind someone else?s business, it might be good to research it a bit. It just so happens that mj412 has been chided by others here than me for her composition. She responded positively and showed us all that when she wants to put the effort into it, she can be just as intelligible as anyone else. So, you now disapprove of my motivational handling of her? v Fine! She?s YOUR responsibility now. And if you find my posting that convoluted, what are you doing reading this thread?

I almost forgot what this thread is about! Looks like a lot of you did too.

karmicdebt, What makes you think I even KNOW the answer to your question? I'm not into finding things like that out. If you don't believe in the truth of the Bible as originally given, they what the heck do you CARE what I believe, what Dr believes, or what GOD says? Why would you even be interested in such a question? I'm investigating what happens to me as I OBEY Dr's final instructions. I already KNOW what happened when I (and everyone else) disobeyed Dr's final instructions. Why would I care to inquire about the consequences of unbelief here? The only possible reason I could imagine is to use such a piece of information as a fear motivator. I?m just not into that. Sorry. You?re asking a question that doesn?t hold much of a curiosity lure for me to want to bother to investigate. I?m into knowing what is available from God and how to receive it. The consequences are NOT receiving it. Beyond that I?m quite uninterested. Hey, I got a question for you: Do I know you? Did we cross paths at all in SD? Your posted history of what happened here was somewhat over abbreviated.

mj412, May I ask you to please use punctuation? I find myself skimming your posts faster and faster as you revert to your sloppy style more and more. I can?t really say I have the slightest idea of what you?re babbling about, because your posts demand so much effort to read. I just thought I?d let you know because I know nearly everyone else also avoids reading your posts for the headaches they cause when attempting to decipher them. You can either clean up your grammar or go unread. You decide.

Too Gray Now, I DID at one time, one long extended time of years and decades, consider those points you mentioned, and now no longer do. I have addressed them here before, hence my brevity with you. Have you engaged at all with the points regarding Jesus Christ I have documented here? Are you aware of them? They can be found in the table of contents now. Let me ask you this: why do you assume I never before thought of all you posed to me? I've thought these things through for at least five years, and some elements for as long as 30 years.

mj412, Do you watch a lot of TV?

It's close. Gaining a spiritual understanding of PFAL is HOW we see Christ spiritually. Why would God intervene in 1942? Because it's time! Jesus Christ is God's Word made flesh. When we put on that Word WE TOO become the Word in the flesh. There's got to be a BIG reason God intervened in 1942 to reissue His Word. It's to teach us HOW to see His Son perfectly.

mj412, The proof is within the pages of PFAL. When people genuinely come back to it THEN the proofs will flow. The pages of PFAL point to the pages of the Bible.

I?m impressed with the vast non-thinking that takes place here in the criticism of my position. Nearly ten times now I have challenged ?Why believe the Bible is God?s Word? ? It never is answered. How can you all maintain such a belief, and yet not know why you believe it? The non-thinking through on WHY the Bible is present in every criticism of me. I HAVE thought through why I believe the Bible. I think my position on the God-breathed status of Dr?s writings is so very uncomfortable to many here because it challenges what you have placed at the core of your being. You don?t know WHY the Bible should be believed, but you?ll attack me... I?ll just keep challenging: WHY do you believe the Bible, as originally given, is of God?

Too Gray Now, You wrote: ?It seems as though you have devised a scheme where Dr. Wierwille's teachings and works and very words... have become elevated to the place of scripture.? What SEEMS to be the case is NOT the case. I have not devised this, GOD did. You seem to think that God is not allowed to intervene as I have described. Have you ever thought through how people of the first century received Paul when he informed them that he had a revelation that could not be backed up by the OT scriptures, and that sort of replaced them? How should Paul have received people with questions and challenges like yours? How should have those people received what he was saying? You seem to be elevating scripture to an inappropriate level, where God is unable to intervene to set it straight once and for all, and set straight the thousands of scholars who fight over the tattered remnants of His Word daily for centuries. I don?t think you?ve thoroughly through this ?man-worship? angle. Haven?t you ever been accused of worshipping Paul for spending more time in his epistles than in the gospels? I heard that accusation dozens of times in the 70?s. Why is it impossible for Dr to be just a man who God selected (for HIS reasons) to bring forth His Word? Why does my belief that Dr got this revelation makes him a worshipped man? I do think these things through, and I keep them balanced. I think you are thinking too highly of the received scriptures, and even more too highly of the translations and versions most English speaking people depend on. You?re worshiping the men who preserved and interpreted these not-so-ancient documents for us. I look to where God is placing HIS hand of approval, while you look to the world and tradition. I see God?s hand of approval on PFAL. *********** You stated as fact: ?In fact, the scriptures do teach many things contrary to PFAL or VPW he ALREADY thought when he made that statement in PFAL.? I reject this ?fact? as your interpretation and not a fact at all. If I am going to place my trust in someone it will be in whom God leads me, not you. I?ve simply decided that there is not ONE trustworthy scholar or teacher in the world in whom I will trust as being a judge of PFAL not matching scripture. If you say that there is a mismatch between PFAL and scripture, then I will have to ask you who?s life did you place your hands in to believe that one. No matter who you mention, I will not trust that person. I?m done deciding where to place my trust. You all have failed the test, and Dr passed. Sorry! ****************** You then wrote: ?He had issues. Like most men. He had moments of brilliance, like some men... but in the end, he DIED and stayed DEAD... which is not unlike the first Adam... but very different than second Adam. This simply means in the END, he had more in common with the first than the second.? All the writers of the scriptures had the exact same problem. Why is it that you can?t see this? Name a single biblical writer who didn?t die and stay dead! Name a single biblical writer who didn?t have more in common with the first Adam this way than the second! You can?t! Your rhetoric is without substance. Using your words: ?Do you honestly think that a DEAD man,? like Paul with words written in Ephesians... ?is the FUTURE of THE church???? THE way out for all?? I do. God gave him the revelation of the Gathering Together. Before you ask me questions like you did, consider what you?re REALLY saying. You?re saying God is forbidden to intervene in your theology. That?s a dead theology! *************** You wrote: ?Jesus... you know the man.... whom God raised from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights (not VPW), said he would send his SPIRIT after he left his disciples (not the printing press, and certainly not a Wollensak reel-to-reel tape of PFAL - for god's sake)? If you have read all my posts you?d see that I have identified the reliance on the tapes of PFAL was a MAJOR problem. We were told time and again to move to a mastery of the books, but none obeyed. The method God devised in the first century to get the BIG revelations out was NOT as you wrote. It was NOT direct communication via spirit that God told the mystery to the church. That revelation was too big to get through to most if not all. Jesus promised that spirit would reveal all truth, and that?s what happened with Paul. Paul wrote it down; he got the revelation into written form. Then in Ephesians 3:4 he tells us how we get to know the mystery: by READING. So God?s method is not tapes, not direct spirit, but READING His Word that gets the all truth to us. **************** PFAL is not dead, it?s grads who stay away from it that are dead. I?m glad you see that PFAL had it?s initial benefit for you. The big one is yet to come. Dr is dead and cannot believe to help us or receive any more revelations for us. His written words, written by revelation, are very much alive.

Intelligence is not enough; only revelation will do it. That?s what happened in PFAL. It?s a revelation from God. It?s well hidden by the adversary now, but as we look at it closely it gets clearer every day. I know that some bad things have happened, but I also know God can still work with people in spite of conditions that would certainly scare us off. God?s big sleeve surprise has offended many here at GS, that He breathed His Word into PFAL bigtime. There?s an odd verse, I John 2:28, that few have come to terms with. There are lots of surprises at the Appearing, and not all are fun. I believe we?re at that Appearing right now, and PFAL being revealed as God?s Word is a bit of a shocker to all. When we come back to PFAL we?ll see.

WordWolf, My offer to start a new thread was ONLY to provide less of an irritant on the "About the Way" forum's Table of Contents. I fully expect the resistance you mention on other threads. It?s stating the obvious to me that those WILLFULLY disobedient to Dr in general attitude would then be willfully disobedient in a specific set of Dr?s instructions, final of not. I mention Dr?s final instructions for many reasons. One is to show how much slipped past us, and how poorly we OLGs did in passing on Dr?s teachings to the people. Part of the many villian theory is that WE blew it in many ways.