Mike

George, The technology of moon walking is impressive, whether it?s done by Neil Armstrong or Michael Jackson. But compare that technology to "love" or "spirit" and it melts into the trivial. The science that went into all that technology came in many bundles, extending back 400 years. Experimental believing was involved in every bundle. . . . Hi ho. Hi ho. It's off to work...

Song, Maybe you were in one of my excellors sessions?

CW, You wrote: ?Please know that my jumping on you wasn't about you in particular. I was in defense mode...so I was jumping on everybody. Nothing personal (to you or OM or Long Gone or anyone else), although I'm sure it felt personal.? The exact same thing has happened to me here many times, so I can totally relate. God bless you.

George, One last thought before I dash off to work: Can you name one thing that?s been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to you? I?ll bet that you can?t name many, or that if you think you can, with proper examination, you?d see that there are many little leaps of ?faith? involved. The more well proved an assertion is, the more trivial the asertion must be. Geometry comes to mind.

George, In other words, I'm eager to believe, but careful too. Being eager with skepticism leads nowhere.

George, I'm saying that gullibility and skepticism ARE far removed from each other; they're opposite extremes of a spectrum. There is a healthy balance somewhere between them of experimentally believing in something, and THEN collecting the verifying data. Science proceeds this way, with the emphasis on skepticism. I do it too, when the subject is science. But with spiritual matters (which I see in what I think is a good understanding of God's Word) I emphasize a little AWAY from skepticism. Locked-on total believing takes me many, many years and much verification before I participate.

CW, Apology accepted, and with a heartfelt THANK YOU included. But there are still many others ready to pounce on anything I write, so this particular subject of abuse toward males I reserve for private communications.

George, I think it?s in Proverbs that God says a fool believes everything he hears. It's the balance between skepticism and gullibility that I shoot for.

Come to think of it, in addition to my own copyrighteously, non-plagiaristic, self made up nonsense words, I also used supercalifragilisticexpialidocious in excellors sessions.

How about SuperNATURALcalifragilisticexpialidocious ? . . [This message was edited by Mike on January 08, 2004 at 14:19.]

CW, I admitted no such thing. I said that I MYSELF will not post my abuse stories here because I KNOW how people like you will misconstrue it all, JUST LIKE you just did with my previous post.

Yeah! ESPECIALLY mine!

As for SIT and proof, let?s go back to the books we all mastered. On pages 125 and 126 of TNDC we can see that twice Dr mentions the proof of SIT in the context of proving TO ONESELF the indwelling of holy spirit. Seeing someone ELSE speak in tongues can definitely be an attention getter, but it?s the properly executed interpretation that can really speak to their heart. Below are those pages, from the chapter on ?How to Speak in Tongues.? I want to point out the SELF proof value of SIT in this passage. Look for these sentences (with my ALL-CAPS highlighting: ...YOU have the proof now in the senses-world that YOU have Christ within... ...YOU now have proved TO YOUR SENSES that Christ is in you... ******* TNDC pages 125-126 If you can speak one word, you can speak ten thousand words; because if you can speak one word, you have the power, the God-given ability, to speak more. Every time you speak remember that you are edifying yourself spiritually, building yourself up. You are speaking the wonderful works of God; you are magnifying God. You have the proof now in the senses-world that you have Christ within, that you are a joint-heir with Him. In a moment I want you to speak again; to speak once more so that you become fluent and confident from experience. To learn another language by using your mind would take months; but to speak in unknown tongues happens instantly. God knows the tongues, so He gives them to your spirit and you speak them forth. Anybody who knows even the slightest bit about languages knows that ?beep, beep, beep, boop, boop, boop? would not be speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is speaking a developed language. Now once more I want you to speak in tongues. Just get quiet. Move your lips, throat, and tongue, and start speaking again. Keep on speaking. You are speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God. You now have proved to your senses that Christ is in you and that you have the power of the holy spirit. This is the greatness of God?s wonderful power to you as a believer.

George, I didn?t read it, but I can concur. Outside TWI, most of the claimed-to-be SIT I saw was either stupid, gibberish, or something worse. I would expect the same with MOST ?miraculous? claims of understandable languages uttered by SIT practitioners would fall in the same category of un-together idiocy. When genuine SIT is genuinely understood by someone, it?s a miraculous intervention by God. I know that God operates in such a way as to elude 5-senses researchers and skeptics. God protects their free will believing (or NONbelieving) by leaving few unambiguous traces of His interventions. There is coming a time when He will deal with unbelief, but not yet.

Cherished Child, You wrote: ?I still don't see any scriptural or even logical basis to the belief that we should practice speaking in tongues, via contrived "excellor sessions". It just makes no sense that I should have to predetermine even the first syllable. God is either big enough to bring forth the whole thing without my "input" or he's not. Everything to the core of my being tells me that this is not of God.? At one time I thought similarly, but this was well over 30 years ago. As time went by in that more positive atmosphere of learning we grads enjoyed in the 1970?s, I gradually collected pieces of understanding for the scriptural and logical basis behind the PROPERLY conducted excellor sessions. There were improperly conducted ones for sure, so I felt it my duty to volunteer as an excellor session coordinator whenever the Intermediate Class was run, once I understood the logic behind it all. The main reason for excellor sessions and their SOMETIMES contrived non-spiritual utterances is to help people calm down their fears. I have seen numerous people come to their first excellor session as white as a sheet with fear that they are going to do it wrong. A measured amount of humor and laughter is often helpful in such a situation. The improperly held excellor sessions often were ones where the humor element got a bit out of hand. One of the first exercises I would do is get people into SIT fluency by removing the ?fear? of saying something that?s not genuine or strange sounding. Quite a few people thought that if commonly heard SIT sounds like ?lo shunta? didn?t pop up often, then they were in the wrong. I would spell out nonsense words for everyone to say in unison, like ?splubadux,? just to get people familiar with having a strange word come out of their mouth. A few such words would often break the ice and everyone would have a good laugh, much less fearful about the more serious attempts to ?let it flow.? If a new student would always start out with the same SIT sounds or the same interpretation words, I?d not say anything for a while, and let them use these ?comfort crutches? for a few sessions just to get started. When we?d get into SIT fluency sessions using certain letters of the alphabet to key off or initiate tongues, I?d show them Psalm 119 and how God used the Hebrew alphabet to key off each section in alphabetical order. If I limit God to the sound of a letter ?k? for the first sound in a round of SIT, He is resourceful enough to make it come out all right by supplying the appropriate sounds to follow my predetermined ?k? sound of initiation. God is big enough to do anything as long as it doesn?t violate His own principles. He can?t lie and He can?t make us love. He also can?t make us get over our fears or be super spiritual. He can?t force us to do anything. Helping people to get over their fear and getting their mouth into motion was the whole point of excellor session contrivances.

Actually, I?ve been getting into reading two other threads. Naturally, by staying off them I don?t disrupt them, and they take interesting twists. I?m reading the ?Interesting Twists...? thread of LornaDoone and loving it. Many good points made there. Also interesting, in a Chubby Checker way, is Roy?s ?Is It All the Word of God? thread. In both threads I take great comfort in seeing certain ideas re-surface. But I?ve got to get back to my homework of answering THIS thread. I?m WAAAAY behind!

Hope, That's my reaction too. I post two tiny times, and VIOLA! ... here's a multifaceted multipaged discussion raging all around. hmmmmmmmmmmm Makes one wonder what's going to happen when I sink a few hours a day into this board again. I've got a lot of homework to just answer some of these multi facets from just this thread.

Pawtucket, Now that you mention it, THIS thread should have been started in the "Open" forum. Sorry. I'll also admit most of my stuff is about OLD Way matters, instead of "About the Way" material from more recent years. It is the case, however, that my pre-1990 material represents the roots of many misunderstandings that followed years later. Please point me to the best forum and I'll try to behave there. As for attitude, almost everyone here posts with the feeling that they have arrived at an accurate opinion, and their attitude is one of confidence. My attitude is that I?ve found some useful data, and I want to share it. When I run into massive resistance, my attitude can take on temporary retaliatory modes that I am sometimes proud of, and sometimes not so proud of. I?ll do my best to not be condescending... or sound condescending, but the latter's harder. I?m willing to try a New Year?s Resolution of sorts and put aside my boxing gloves. Plus there are a bunch of new posters here whom I don?t know very well, and who may not know me very well yet. I?d like to start from scratch with them on a better footing. This past year got pretty wild at times. Meanwhile, I?m real busy with a lot of Christmas decoration cleanup. My business lull is still a bit in the future, but I?ll be pondering some good answers to the other posters here too. And, Paw, congratulations on how you opened that thread about Harv?s e-mail. I?d like to think it represents a beginning in some healing processes to come in the not-too-distant future.

I am now pondering and may be planning new threads ?About the Way? but am interested in considering some feedback from the posters here. Almost exactly one year ago this evening I started posting on a multitude of items that slipped by us Older Leader Grads (OLGs) back in the 70?s and early 80?s, but were none-the-less embedded in the tape/print record Dr left us. I think many of the items I posted over the year were quite significant, and it may be appropriate to list them here somewhere. I?d like to invite posters to recall with me some of these items. What have you folks learned from all this? What might be the most important subjects for me to revisit that have come up this past year in my posts? I am extremely thankful for the opportunity I had this past year to bring in this controversial information. What happened to us all in TWI is important enough to examine from all angles, and I think all must admit, my angle this past year has proved to supply a large number of unturned stones demanding investigation. The rainy season is approaching San Diego and I am considering resuming my inventory of startling revelations. There are still many more items I want to post on, and when my business enters this yearly lull in the coming weeks I just may have time to do so. I look forward to getting more and more time to pick up where we left off. I?d also like to invite topic suggestions from you all for the not-too-distant future, when I will have much more time.

Hi wytedove58, I noticed in a recent post of yours here that bad advice from leadership in the area of ?medications versus believing? had hurt you. I've seen similar situations, myself, and sympathize with you. Some consolation may be found in something I heard Dr. Wierwille say about this at the 1972 Rock of Ages. As the years progressed through the 70's leadership blew off many things Dr tried to teach them, and this is a good example. At that 1972 Rock Dr announced an emergency meeting one afternoon at the racetrack (it was held at the County Fairgrounds that year). After a large group assembled, Dr said that if anybody got healed there at the Rock, it was important for them to continue taking their medicine. If they were truly healed, AND their medicine started making them sick, AND their medical Doctor said so, THEN they should stop taking their medicine. It was a ten minute meeting where he said the above with a few elaborations and repetitions, and then he disbursed the crowd. The reason so much bad advice abounded in leadership is because from the top down, they all drifted from the Word Dr offered to teach them, and they drifted into their own broken cisterns of religion. This drift was earlier and fiercer in the upper leadership, but all levels were eventually affected. Some individuals resisted the drift better than others, for a time, but by 1985 all the top leadership had totally rejected the authority God had invested in Dr, and thus had rejected God. In lower leadership levels the rejection, like where I resided, the drift was less fierce, but by the mid 90?s had come to the same practical endpoint. The bad advice that abounded was a mere consequence of the drift from God?s Word. In the earlier years, and in the areas uncontaminated by the Corps, much good advice (like Dr?s 1972 Rock lecture on medicine) abounded in all levels of leadership. When we come back to this Word we were taught and master it, we?ll gain the wisdom we?ve lacked in the past.

?Hello, this is Reverend Geer. What? I?m sorry... I don?t have time for this. I?m too busy putting this printing press back together. Good-bye!? (click!)

...greenest State in the land of the free...

I wish I had listened to Dr. Wierwille's frequent advice to master the collaterals. In those days I'd look at the Blue Book and be embarrassed by the title, and get tricked into thinking it was simpleton. The verses in ?Release From Your Prisons? seemed OK, but the text in between seemed dispensable. Like everyone else, I failed to be delivered. NOW, I see great light in that same ?Bible Tells Me So? and I see that it?s disguised to fool the arrogant and prideful. NOW I?ve reversed my priorities, knowing that the KJV verses are only partially correct, and the intervening text is God?s (not Dr?s) commentary to reset those man-made verses in perfect context for our deliverance TODAY! If ONLY I had been meek to learn from God and His teacher I?d have grown much faster and farther, but that?s spilt milk not worth crying over, BECAUSE it?s not too late to master God?s Word He has so graciously given us. I?m thankful that coming back to PFAL and mastering the written materials (like we were frequently told to) has given me the answers to the ministry meltdown and my CONTINUED life with my heavenly Father.

Linda Z, I think you're on the right track here. Others should try and bring in the love of God to this discussion like you just did.

We're supposed to be a FAMILY, not an academic institution. I have a message of good cheer for the family: God succeeded in His work with Dr to bless us FAR MORE than we could ever guess. God gave us His WORD in a far more powerful way than antiquity could. We could fuss over what did NOT go right back then, or we can celebrate God's success in blessing us. To bring up the subject of "origination" to cloud this wonderful truth of God's success is not good. We have better things to discuss than piddly "origination" issues, or ?who poked whom." No amount of focus on sex or plagiarism will ever bring healing, only more suffering. Only by focusing on God and His Son via HIS Word will bring deliverance.