Mike

shaz, Here I am caught up in responding in spite of my tight schedule. On the “Forest” thread I posted that in times of stress and temptation I can sometimes slip in and out of fellowship several times in one minute.

Hi CW, :)--> One of the reasons I'm short on time for this thread is because I want to get back to your thread on the forest. I still haven't had time to read yesterday's posts much, much less respond.

I'm short on time to respond here. I have been combing the records of what Dr DID teach and the record he left us for the past 6 years now. There are many things that you all have forgotten or never picked up. At some time I will post some of the items you all THINK don't exist. My interest on the sex angle is not paramount in my mind, although in the minds of most people here it is, or seems to be. I know someone who has access to the CF&S class on tape. Either he or I may report on it's actual contents someday, rather than the contents of faulty memory. I will throw this hint out now. There is a very revealing article Dr put in the Way Magazine in the year 1983. Anyone who has those 6 issues has the opportunity to find what I’m talking about. I know the exact issue and page, but I’m not saying what they are right now, here. I want those who have the issues, and the heart to search the actual printed records, to do that searching and find this item for themselves. They will, in the search process, find lots of other things they either forgot or never absorbed the first time around. There are MANY things Dr said and printed where we all did NOT hang on his every word. By 1982 most of us were in an extreme habit of blowing off most EVERYTHING he said. The fact that his last teaching was lost on all the leadership and lost to most of the rest of us is but one example of this process of forsaking him. We did it to him the same way Paul was forsaken in the first century. Our acceptance of Dr in those final years was surface, senses, and for show only. I challenge you all to actually get serious about these things, instead of shooting from the hip.

Brady, As for the plagiarism charges, the texts that Dr used from other men actually belonged to God. God gave them to the other writers. God told Dr to use those texts. The other writers were only preparing the texts for Dr’s use to give to us. How do you feel about God telling Joshua to claim the land that was occupied by others for 400 years? In the sense knowledge worldly perspective you come from, that would be stealing. But God REALLY owned that land, in spite of the ungodly squatters who were there. If you have a beef with Dr using those texts, you should feel just as outraged at Joshua, and at God, again. Here are some passages from an old SNS tape where Dr stated how he was given access to the right men at the right time: *** “And so I’d read the Word; I’d read it––I’d read it. Then I’d work, start looking––start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light––men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others––many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it.” *** “But there was a hunger in my heart and God said He’d teach me the Word if I’d teach it, but I had to study, I had to work. And revelation begins––this is why I know this so well––revelation begins where the senses cease. What you can know by your senses, God expects you to know. He expects you to study the work that have already been worked out. Men like Bulinger; men like Stevie Ginsberg; God expected me to work those men and countless others. But, He taught me how to get the error out when there was any. And out of that process He taught me then, what was truth. And when there was no way of knowing it, and I’d researched to my fullest ability––tried to find out, then, if there is no other way, He showed it to me by direct revelation. Time and time again, He’d take the scripture and make it this big. I’m reading along in a verse and all at once there it is, two words, this big, for instance. Well, you have to be stupid to miss it, you know.” ************************************************************ So, Dr credits many of these men with having received revelation here. God is the real owner.

Zixar, You haven't access to the records of Dr's relationship with God and all it's INs and OUTs. That's a private deal between him and God. If not, then I want access to YOUR records.

posted on the thread titled "Why lie?" ************************************************************* by Research Geek Doctor shmocker? I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall. The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort. So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials. posted October 04, 2002 08:58 ************************************************************* posted by justwannabeme vpw's credentials Research Geek: Thanks for clarifying things. I keep hearing things about "the fraudulant degree" but in a real sense, it was NOT fraudulent. Pike's Peak was a seminary, and granted degrees at the time. I find the opinions of those who turn the issue around (negate that at the time, it was NOT a degree mill) as worthless as they find the teachings of VPW. I believe he did become corrupt. I do not believe he started out that way. But I find nothing noteworthy in debasing someone with fraudulent information. There's enough that is factual that can be used. Anyone who takes the time to find out what Research Geek shared will probably believe more in VPW than someone who has distorted the facts. And why doesn't anyone ever discuss his Master's Degree at Princeton. Just how do you think he got into that papermill school. Pointing out someone's corruptness with facts is a lot different than being like a lynch mob that has to dehumanize someone in order to make their case. In the end, it makes the underdog appear more worthty of sympathy. posted October 06, 2002 22:36

Brady, I suggest you turn your super powers of "comprehensive, thorough evaluation and assessment" on the man called David in the Old Testament of your Bible. He was a murderer, among other things. Does he pass your integrity test? God entrusted His Word to him anyway. Maybe you should reprove God.

rascal, I'm still running into grads who think "The Hope" is Dr's last teaching. I just got an e-mail from two today who want to see his actual last teaching. The adversary thought it was such an important teaching that he hid it from 99% of all nonCorps grads, and a very large percentage of the leadership. In the last year I ran into TWO men who were in the Research Department at the time of Dr's death who were totally unaware of his last teaching. Both of their names are very familiar to you and us all. I've run into several clergy who were in the dark about this. This is much bigger than mall witnessing. It's bringing life back to a dead family.

Hi L-Pants, How's life? Have you seen Dr's last teaching? It's pretty cool. So cool it was lost, but in recent years it has been found. Please e-mail me. We have a lot to talk about. Do you know how to find my e-mail address in my Personal Profile? I'm serious. Dr's last teaching includes his final instructions to us. I never saw nor heard this teaching until 1998. When I did finally see it, I endeavored to carry out his final instructions, which were to master the PFAL class, the Intermediate class, and the BOOKS that come with the class. I was amazed at how much I had forgotten, and how much I had never absorbed the first time around. Coming back to PFAL changed my life. It was better than the first time I took it way back in the early 70's. We REALLY have lots to talk about!

Georgio Jessio, . . . UNCLE! . . . I give up. I believe you faked it. . . . . . As for assuming that you don?t have the understanding to separate flesh from spirit, I got that from God and His Word. NONE of us have it! It?s the plight of being born merely body and soul, cut off from spirit. Only with extraordinary efforts can a human being overcome this. Repeating the video class won?t do it. If that could do it someone in top leadership would have gotten the necessary revelation to halt the ministry meltdown. The extraordinary efforts required to be spiritually savvy were told to us all and that was mastering the PFAL writings. I suggest you can best utilize your skills by coming back to these PFAL books and magazine articles and apply them to help not only yourself, but everyone you know, and then some.

Georgio, You wrote: ?I don't know how you can say I wasn't because I was. I had no great desire to establish fakery till you decided I wasn't faking it.? You failed to read my posts with accuracy. I did NOT say you weren?t faking it. I made no such decision. I merely pointed out that I believe you have very little knowledge to discern the very subtle difference between senses making it up and inspirit action. All the top leaders of the ministry failed at this and I think you did to. Simple exposure to the class video and tapes has proved to be insufficient for all leadership, and that?s why Dr insisted so many times that they master the books. Over and over again I mentioned these things regarding your fakery as possibilities and in part. That is was only a possibility means that I was not sure about you in particular, but I know the principle as it applies to a large number of people. That it was in part means that you could have intended to do 100% fakery, but that some of the genuine crept in. From what you?ve outlined about your life now, and the very specialized skills you may have, I now believe 100% fakery may very well be possible for you NOW. But what about when you were a teen believer? What about the years before Dr died? I?m inclined to believe that the earlier the year, the more likely that a significant percentage of the genuine had ?crept? in there. If you had seriously mastered the books like Dr told us to in 1975, 79, 82, 84, and 1985 you could have increased the genuineness. I?m not talking down to you any more than all the rest of us, because we ALL blew it in failing to sufficiently master the books, INCLUDING ME.

Georgio Jessio, As an exercise in taking the cake and eating it too, I?d like to address the idea of fakery of SIT and TIP again. It?s been a long time since I conducted an excellors session, and in recent days I?ve remembered a little more in how I used to help people get around perceived or actual fakery. Four days ago on page 7 you objected to my help by posting ?Wow. Holy arrogant. I don't need your help! I'm fine. You don't know me, what my beliefs are or anything else about me...? You say I shocked you with my non-acceptance at face value of your claims of fakery. I too am shocked in this context, since all my previous discussions on these items in those excellors sessions involved people who really wanted to not be faking it. It shocks me to see such great desire on your part to establish the fakery you think you did in juxtaposition to the desires I had and saw in people decades ago. *** You wrote: ? It took alot for me to say that because it was admitting that I lived a lie for many many years. Now you're idea of helping me is to do the very thing you accuse me of: you're trying to kill MY beliefs and place that lie right back on my shoulders.? No. I?m trying to show you (and others here) that your IMPRESSION of it being a lie or fakery MAY not have been totally correct. I?m trying to assure you (and others) that although we WERE subjected to a lot of garbage, there was ALSO a lot of good stuff going on. Separating truth from error is what PFAL promised us, and I think it?s working for me on this topic. This should be good news that you weren?t a total victim of the adversary?s deceit, but that both the True God and the false god were engaged in a struggle over us. God will eventually win this, but why delay seeing His benefits? I?m just trying to show you that there was some good in there. *** You wrote: ?And as far as Vic's "old man nature" goes: I don't know or care if you think there are degrees of sin. But my old ma nature is to have one too many beers and tell the occasional white lie.? I?m glad for your character successes. You may want to try thinking how you WOULD behave in circumstances of much more extreme pressures applied, and in much more extreme pleasures offered that the adversary can throw at people who are more high priority targets. Remember this poem? Pray don't find fault with the man who limps or stumbles along the road Unless you have worn the shoes he wears, or struggled beneath his load. There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt, though hidden away from view, Or the burden he bears...placed on your back, might cause you to stumble too. Don't sneer at the man who's down today, unless you have felt the blow That caused his fall or felt the shame that only the fallen know. You may be strong, but still the blows that were his... if dealt to you, In the selfsame way at the selfsame time might cause you to stagger too. Don't be too harsh with the man who sins or pelt him with word or stone Unless you are sure...yea doubly sure that you have no sins of your own... For you know...perhaps if the tempters voice should whisper...as softly to you As it did to him...when he went astray could cause you to falter too. ***** Speaking of remembering, did that AC teaching transcript I posted on Balaam help show how God can SOMETIMES get a genuine prophecy through, even when fakery is deliberately attempted? ***** Ok, now for the cake taking and eating: Premeditation is interesting if you look at it closely. I go to a weekly poetry meeting where they have an open mic for any kind of writing style. I can?t do regular poetry, but I try some prose there from time to time. I totally premeditate what I?m going to say most times I stand before that audience. More than memorizing my lines, I write them down and read them into the microphone. I trust this is a higher degree of premeditation than you engaged in. I have found that on nearly every occasion I am NOT faithful to the script. Sometimes I misread a word or two. Sometimes I misread a point of grammar, which propels me into an unintended tense or case, and then feel I must alter a later section script to match the unintended digression earlier. Sometimes I include a spontaneous digression or joke as it occurs to me. Total premeditation is hardly possible. In a twig setting, I know I have sometimes stumbled into premeditation, and then found myself executing that premeditation. Since this lower degree of premeditation is NOT written out, and NOT read from the script when called on, the level of digressions is MUCH higher than I see in my poetry sessions as described above. It is in these digressions from the premeditation that that God can go to work within those who desire to edify/exhort/comfort, IN SPITE OF the premeditation. In such digressions, if I ?feel? like saying such-and-such, why not think that it is Christ in me that ?feels? that? This is what I would encourage excellors in those sessions. We can grow into minimizing the premeditation fakery and maximize the God-working-within us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Can this ?thinking the best? be overdone? Yes. It sometimes was. But with persistent effort, these worship manifestations can emerge in fluency and purity for those who want it. You later posted: ?I had a twig leader in the 70s who claimed she raised her ex husband from the dead. He was choking and he turned blue. She prayed over his "dead body". When he didn't rize she pounded his chest, he then puked and woke up. __ It's a miracle!!!! __ Well, it was actually a heimlich maneuver of sorts, but dam if she didn't tell everyone that she raised him from the dead. __ Everyone was so dam blessed that no one questioned it.? I don?t know what actually happened in that particular incident. You MAY be right that there were no supernatural elements at all, and that the spiritual was read into it by the eagerness of the woman to think that way. People can do this at times. But so can you, right? You can be reading the mundane into it more than the reality of that particular situation, right? You?re human, right? Have you explored all the possibilities of that incident, or are you jumping on the mundane, just as you accuse that woman of jumping on the spiritual? Did it ever occur to you that it was revelation God gave to the woman to pound? Did you consider that maybe she didn?t know anything of the heimlich maneuver, and that God inspired her. Maybe her fist hit exactly in phase with the faint internal biological impulses trying to re-start his heart, cough, or vomit, and that her exact timing and strength of pounding was perfect in a miraculous sense. How long did you consider these kind of things? Maybe you are doing on the negative side the same thing you accuse her of doing on the positive. I say these things to show you that your surety of fakery is baseless. You don?t know for sure what went on in that situation, and you don?t know for sure what went on in those twigs where you engaged in premeditation. You?re just steaming along with the crowd all caught up in a mob mentality. These things deserve much more thought than you?ve put into it. I challenge you to think it all through from the start. Come back to PFAL and see what you missed. [This message was edited by Mike on January 15, 2004 at 3:03.] [This message was edited by Mike on January 15, 2004 at 3:06.]

Trefor, I see Deut.6 as for my learning. Jesus was quoting it and I think the context of his quote is very noteworthy. In previous years I applied what I learned from this context to master the KJV (and other versions) as best I could utilizing PFAL principles. Now I apply the context of Jesus? quote to what I have come to see as God?s improvement on the received texts and their translations and their versions. Mark, I have done my best to honor the originating post of this thread and steer my responses to deal with Pat Schwaigers? request. I believe that her observation is a good one that most of her teaching on the First actually drift into obeying the Second greatest commandment, and have relatively little to say of the First. Most of the posts here bear the characteristics of her initial observation. I think your impression that I have ?infected? this thread is hyperbole at best.

Mark, How do you handle Deut.6 ?

How did Bullinger put it?

Dot, Please stop misrepresenting my heart and my words. Dr will get what God says he deserves, not you. Meantime we have something much better to focus on. Why not let's do it?

No, I think you received what I said in a different light than I intended. The blessings you mentioned are not trivial at all, but they are smaller than doing all the things that Jesus Christ did. The blessings you mentioned, as big as they are, are common among unbelievers too. Another thing that puts the blessings you mentioned in their RELATIVE position below ?all nine all the time? is that children often grow up to rebel, or get hurt, or even die. With all nine, these limitations can be minimized. I didn?t mean to put down the blessings with a small b at all. Since I have no children, I have LOTS of time to contemplate what a huge blessing I?ve missed there. I?m happy for you that you are blessed, and I also want to see you Blessed Bigger. Honest, that?s my heart on this.

I understand. The same thing happens to me when my dandruff is stirred up. It's not like I'm trying to do antagonize anyone, but it seems unavoidable in some respects. As things calm down in time and as you see that I'm not advocating returning to the crappy parts, then the details of what I say will be less lost in the shuffle. If I were in your shoes, I very well may be missing more details and less apt to retract. I KNOW that I am not the great one here, but I know where he is.

How did we ever get any Blessings of God before PFAL came along? We didn't. We only got blesings, with a small B, and that was by God's grace, mercy, and even phenominal interventions. The Blessings with a big B are still in store for those of us who decide to leave all the crap behind and copncentrate on the good that we were given. I'm not asking you to look to me, or even to VPW, but to the writings he and we were given.

Just for the record, reading a version of a translation of a modern reconstruction of ancient mis-copied fragments like KJV reading, is FINE for the beginner. It?s even necessary for the beginning student, and that?s why Dr had us do it for years. I do advocate KJV reading for beginning students. Maybe even 10 or 20 years of it. But we OLGs (older leader grads) don?t fall into that category at all. We?re not beginners and are ready to graduate to the vast improvements God worked to fix and augment the received texts. But if we OLGs want the fullness, the power, all nine all the time, ability to do all that Jesus Christ did and greater, THEN we must go to those NOT so obscure PFAL writings. As for the non-grad population at large out there, I?m convinced that their only hope to see the fullness is from our eventual success at reaching that fullness first. In the meantime I?m glad they work their KJVs and NIVs to the best of their ability. They may even have more rewards in store for themselves than many of us grads who have squandered the treasures we?ve been given. We will be held accountable for what we?ve done with what we?ve been given. Once again, for the record, I?m thankful to God that He was able to work with people steeped in GREAT darkness who produced the early English translations and versions. They were a good, useful, and necessary start. Let?s let God be the judge of VPW and his walk, and dump all the crappy aspects that TWI was admittedly filled with, and move on to finally and fully utilize what God gave us via PFAL. It was God's love that provided all that for us. Our response of love to Him should be to utilize what He worked to give us.

Cynic, You forgot to include John 5:19, 5:30, 7:17, 8:28, and 12:49. In that passage of mine you quoted I said "Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament OR GOD TOLD HIM."

ex10 and Dot, My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Those who CAN read are responsible to DO IT, not only for themselves, but for those who can't. ... like for very young children, blind people, the very aged, or the mentally incapacitated. I'm sure doing one's best is what God looks for. Is someone was never taught to read, but has the capacity, then their hunger to know God will prompt them to learn to read. If not, then they will not enjoy the fullness of what is available to them. This is not unusual and is one way we all fall short of the glory of God. Failure to read is correctable if one?s hunger for the fullness is there. In ancient Israel, they were required, as Deut.6 prescribes, to read and write God's Word all over their houses. [This message was edited by Mike on January 14, 2004 at 13:01.]

Pat, Don't forget that Moses wrote Deut 6, the scripture Jesus quoted. Considering the relative scarcity of spirit upon the people of that time, God had to make it super explicit as to what He meant by loving Him. The verses that follow that First and Greatest Commandment which Jesus quoted make it plain as day how God wanted people to love Him, at least to start off with. I didn't write the book.

Jerry, Long before I got into the Word it slowly became clear to me that all internal linguistic thought involved micro speech movements, like moving the lips, throat, or tongue. Can you speak in English silently? When you do, very careful self observation will reveal micro movement. In my associations with brain scientists during the 90's this same idea seemed to prevail. Silent SIT utilizes the same mechanics of speech as SIT out loud, it's just very tiny actual movement of the muscles involved. I have found that I cannot silently speak English or SIT without such extremely small muscle action. I'm talking about so small that no one else can see it. We were taught that the mind IS INDEED involved in genuine SIT in that we control the ON/OFF switch, the FAST/SLOW switch, and the LOUD/SOFT switch. The only area our mind should not be involved in is WHAT is said. When WHAT is said is not understood by our internal English editor, then we have sufficiently disengaged our mind. It?s the MEANING of what is said that our mind is not involved in. God is bigger than the doubts involving fakery that our adversary tries to use in discouraging us. I like to take the cake and eat it too.

Galen, I?d add that in order to perceive that presence, and be sure it?s the presence of the True God and not a counterfeit, we must know His Word accurately. **** Commenting on the earlier posts: In order to obey God?s commandments, other than the First, we must first KNOW them accurately. In order to become like Jesus, who is the Word made flesh, we need to KNOW that Word he became, and not a religious or Hollywood version of him. Many people know what it?s like to love each other at a distance through love letters and phone calls. We most certainly can love a book, if we know the True Author was God, and that He is right there with us as we read it. I have a wonderful relationship with the books that saved my life. I totally agree with you all that acting on the contents of that book is essential to tapping in to the fullness of that relationship the book facilitates. To the extent that we miss the mark of His Word, we suffer loss. That was true for David and Dr as much as for us. On the road to Emmaus, Jesus FIRST expounded the scriptures to them, and THEN showed them his flesh. If Jesus had done it the other way around they would have been so distracted by his flesh that their hearts would not have burned with love for God from his teaching. Likewise for us, God has hidden Christ, or caused him to be ?absent? and told us to relatively ignore the flesh Christ (II Cor.5:16) so that we can get it through READING (Eph 3:4) the revelations Jesus Christ gave Paul. This is how we avoid the counterfeit jesus spirits that are very capable of giving lots of gushy feelings while slowly and subtly diverting us away from the Father. By reading the books God gave us we can become one with the object of our love, God and His Son. This is what forming Christ within is. We get to know Jesus the way an actor gets to know the character he plays every night on stage. We?re his understudy, taking his place on this earthly stage while he?s absent from it. When he appears we who have ?become? him will be able recognize him. We?re on that same Road to Emmaus and it?s available to have our hearts burn within us with love for God, His Word in written form, and His Word made flesh.