Mike

Zixar, I think you misread my post. Before I correct you, I'll give you a chance to go and do it yourself.

CoolWaters, I hope you are capable of blocking out the lie you broadcast. I did NOT say you should consider leaving your husband. Take back that lie NOW!

Hi Ginger, You wrote: "Next time you write a post like that put a WARNING up first ...readers, take 2 tylenols!" Most people here know what I stand for, and they volunteer to take their shots in an effort to crack me. The harder they try to ram the solid foundation and building I enjoy, the more they hurt their heads and need that Tylenol. You have a point when it comes to new people. Sometimes I don’t recognize that they are new and I may go a little too strong with them. Maybe I did that with outofdafog last week. I later softened my posting to her. What shocks you about my posting is that I defy the state religion of Western civilization, which is moral and doctrinal relativism. I am an absolutist, and that’s not tolerated any more. There were times when the wrong sets of absolutes were forced on many people in the West, such as the conformism of the 1950’s, to name one example of absolutism-gone-wrong. Unfortunately, the wrong solution was implemented by the intelligencia, and the pendulum swung WAY too far to the other extreme of total relativism. I’ve heard that Einstein regretted calling his theory “Relativity” because at a very early date he saw it being misused (in society) to support this swing to total relativism. He mused somewhere, I am told, that he wished he called it the Theory of Absolutivity. Einstein saw (in Physics) that the Newtonian system of space and time being absolute didn’t line up with the way nature worked when things were measured. He saw that the speed of light was the absolute, so he swapped what he would treat as absolute and relative, and the math worked perfectly with how nature behaved. So, in Einstein’s confirmed theory, space and time are relative and “c” is absolute. This absolute was ignored by the intelligencia. Yes, I do defy Absolutism. Actually there is a bit of relativity in moral systems, but not in doctrinal. Sin for one person MAY in some instances not be a sin for another. However a promise of God is a promise of God and is absolute to all people, even sinners, because God is no respecter of persons. The same absolutivity holds for life immediately after death. No matter how much a belief system insists on some kind of consciousness persisting immediately after death, that belief system is DEAD WRONG on that point. Patting someone who believes in this error on the back and saying “Well that can be true for YOU” is a great way to perpetuate a multitude of errors and hurts. [This message was edited by Mike on February 03, 2004 at 14:34.]

Good one Exy! :)--> I told someone on the phone the other day that if PFAL is wrong I WANT to die. Maybe I'd drop acid and go sky diving without a parachute if I knew for sure it was wrong, just to go out with a bang. I think you're being a bit humorous, but I'm totally serious.

Hi mj412, It’s been a while since we talked. Yes it does matter to me, so I’ve been EXTREMELY careful about these things. I did consider the possibility that I could be wrong in embracing PFAL. I did this often for 27 years, from 1971 to 1998. During that time I tried other things as well. It is scary to crystallize on one thing, but what’s the alternative? I think many see how scary this is, but they don’t put the effort in to seek FIRST, so they only run into partially worthy belief systems, ones that rightfully seem unworthy of totally latching onto. The way people cope with this scary situation is backing off and continuing their shopping for other things to consider. I did this constantly for those 27 years, all the while wondering how other people could jump into the ministry so totally enthusiastic. I saw them going hog wild for VPW, and I thought it was dangerous. Now, with the benefit of hindsight I see that they did this only partially, and they (me too) balked at mastering the BOOKS. They’d get all gushy and committed to VPW, the man and his flesh and his tapes and his swagger and bravado, but now I see they always stopped short of real book mastery. This was how SOME behaved, and now they are the most bitterly disappointed of us all. Other people, especially outside the ministry, cope with the scariness of totally commitment by forever backing off and making an entire belief system of not committing to any one system that’s offered on the market. They THINK they’re safe in this, but they’re really sticking their head in the sand, unaware that they have anointed THEMSELVES and their internal editor as the “safe” commitment. These people, most of the Western population, are locked onto totally trusting their own abilities to pick and choose their own beliefs. The current state religion of Western civilization is this total commitment to relativism. It started out in the 1960’s as “Do your own thing.” and now it’s crystallized into “All belief systems are valid... except those belief systems that say some other belief system is wrong.” Another way to put it is “There are absolutely no absolutes... absolutely.” Some people who edit down a belief system of their own spent the time and effort to write it down and offer it on the market to others to use in their editing process. It’s a hopeless situation. It certainly can be scary, but there’s no way around it. Everyone MUST place their bet on SOMETHING, whether it’s Plato, Aristotle, some other offering on the market, or their own latest hodgepodge of edited beliefs. After 27 years of shopping I decided in 1998 to use PFAL, and the Word of God it proclaims and is, as my only rule for faith and practice. Like Dr taught us in the class, if I’m wrong, I’m going to go down with the ship. Choose your ship wisely.

IMF777, You wrote: “The perversion called PFAL has screwed up many people...” Not true! It’s the partial knowledge of PFAL, mixed with many other items that screwed up lots of people. Dr saw this happening, first in leadership, and later in us all, so he was constantly telling us to get it straight by mastering the writings. None of us obeyed and we screwed ourselves up according to how much we had PFAL accurate in mind and in action with love.

CoolWaters, You wrote: “You know that I have pondered your words. You know that I have considered your viewpoint. You know that I have set aside my beliefs to give your beliefs the benefit of the doubt. __ In the end, you stated to me that you would not do that for me.” It was in the beginning, right from the start, that I would not offer you nor anyone else a symmetrical arrangement of respect of beliefs or belief systems. You just didn’t hear me. When it comes to some of your beliefs and certainly the whole system, I assert that I my system is correct and yours is incorrect. However, it IS the case that I set aside set aside those beliefs of yours that are incorrect to give YOU AS A PERSON the benefit of the doubt. There’s a fine difference, and you didn’t pick up on it from the start. If you carefully read all my posts, you will see this has always been my stated position. I have no intention of giving credence to your system of beliefs or anyone else’s. It IS the case that I try my best to highlight those items in someone’s system that ARE correct. I am sure that all other systems of thought outside the PFAL writings are counterfeit. The word counterfeit implies that SOME elements are identical to the genuine. This is NOT the ego trip you (and nearly every poster reading this) think it is. Here’s why. I searched for the genuine belief system very diligently. I made it my #1 goal in life, even at the expense of many social and financial comforts. I did what Jesus said in Matt 6 to seek FIRST the kingdom of God. I tried many things, and when God told me THIS is the genuine I changed my core beliefs to line up with the superior genuine real McCoy. It’s not ME that’s superior, it’s the belief system that God brought to me that’s superior. I myself was terribly inferior to this system, so I dumped my core beliefs to embrace this perfect system. There are times and there are aspects of this system where I have blown it or not yet had the time to adopt the exact elements this system presents, and in those aspects I am inferior. I invite you to try (and maybe even adopt) this superior system. There’s plenty of room for us all here, and whoever gets this system down better than me will be superior to me in those areas I am lacking. I have no intention of every doing you the disservice of saying that such-and-such beliefs of yours are different than the PFAL writings, but they are yours and equally valid. When and where you depart from what God says you are dead wrong and that will hurt you and hurt others you spread that particular error to. I do not believe in a cosmic democracy where all belief systems are equal. There’s one point of view that’s God’s, and then there are many, many wrong points of view. If you differ from the God Who inspired the PFAL writings then you are wrong. *** You wrote: “Whenever a belief system becomes more important than one's spouse, more important than one's children, more important than one's friends, that belief system is no longer functional for humanity.” No, when and where a family disagrees on God’s Word, they are dysfunctional. God’s system of beliefs is always right. Like mindedness on the truth is a very rare thing, and that’s why humanity in general is a huge failure. Jesus promised that there would always be poverty and war until he straightens out all this error with his coming. *** You wrote: “I shared with you the sadness I have experienced in my marriage. I did not share these things with you asking you for help, but, instead, I was trying to show you that if I had adopted your belief system, I would not be married today.” You do not know what my belief system is in any detail. The belief system that gave rise to the horrors you described was a terribly sloppy partial PFAL set of many systems that all of us grads succumbed to as we failed to get those books open. The partial PFAL system you had cooking and the differing partiar PFAL systems the Corps Nazis had clashed and it was a mess. This happened to me too. That’s why I came back to study the writings to get the full picture of PFAL. *** You wrote: “You took that information and basically said to me that your god has a better option in my life. When I asked you if you were saying that your god has a better man for me, you said that I should consider that possibility.” The first sentence is true, except I’d capitalize the word God. The second sentence is TOTALLY false. I NEVER said anything of the sort. You either misheard something, or a lying spirit whispered it to you, or stuck it in your memory. I would NEVER say such a thing..... EVER.... PERIOD! I did say your husband was blessed to have you and to have taken the class. *** You wrote: “Where would it stop, Mike? If I were to get away from my husband because he refuses to believe the same way I believe, then I would have to get away from my son, my daughter and my granddaughter.” It stops when you stop getting my words incorrect and the PFAL words incorrect. *** You wrote: “You see, Mike, zero tolerance with a belief system means zero tolerance of anybody who doesn't adopt the same system getting close enough to be a spouse, a friend, a son or a daughter or a grandchild. __ You have rejected the very idea that Jesus' most important message is taking care of and for one another. __ I have demonstrated to you and others here how I do have a zero tolerance to the error, but total acceptace to the one who is plagued by the error.” I have demonstrated to you and others here how I do have a zero tolerance to the error, but total acceptance to the one who is plagued by the error. This is what Jesus taught. Stop distorting my words.

Zixar, You wrote: “I could not care less how many people read what I write, but your protestation is very telling of your narcissistic craving for attention and validation. I pity you, as I would pity anyone so blinded by their own failures that they dream up an elaborate retroactive history to cover their own inadequacies.” Zix, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what my problems are here!

sadie, You wrote: “Mike, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what everbody's problems are. here.” I’m better than a shrink. I know the root causes of everyone’s ill’s here. I got it from God’s Word. Man’s basic spiritual problem is the intergrity* of God’s Word. (*Bongggggggggggg! We’re on topic, Brady!) So, I know the root cause. If you could find a shrink who was a grad (and had mastered the books) then he might be able to help some varieties of individuals with the variety of individual offshoot problems they have as a result of not having a health respect for the integrity of God’s Word. For THIS, I cannot help and am not qualified. Heck, I’ve got my OWN problems to work on that keep me quite busy. Each individual here has a different background as to what screwed them up prior to taking PFAL; each has a different learning pattern as to what they absorbed of God’s pure Word while they were exposed to the books; each has a different pattern as to what they forgot; each has a different set of buttons for the adversary to have pushed due to all the previous factors plus individual genetics and body chemistry. That all is a hopeless thicket for me to try to deal with regarding someone else (unless I get revelation), and like I said I have my own thicket to deal with too. I’m simply not qualified to mess with any individual’s personal life. But I certainly AM qualified to state that God says: Man’s basic spiritual problem is the intergrity* of God’s Word. I can say to every grad here, especially the OLGs, come back to PFAL and watch how God ministers to you via His pure Word. Just be sure to master it this time instead of dabbling with it. (*Bongggggggggggg! We’re on topic, again!)

CW, I went back and re-read my post. I pummeled your stipulation because it's limiting you. I care much about you as a human being. I think the ideas you have embraced hurt and limit you. It's your ideas that are incorrect. I’ve shared my heart with you being totally honest, and you don’t accept it.

CoolWaters, You're up late! What do you mean about me pummeling you?

Goey, On the face of what I posted, you?re correct in saying there?s no proof there. The proof I saw in it?s hiding by the adversary lies in the myriad of flimsy excuses I saw every leader use to ignore this teaching who DID know about it. Every single clergy, no matter what splinter group they ended up in (including the stump), had some idiotic idea that they should ignore this teaching. They all were at each others throats in many other things, but they all agreed in these two things: to not obey it and to not effectively pass it on. They all arrived at these two conclusions from many different, and disparate positions, all devilish. Yes, in effect, I saw him hide it.

Zixar, You wrote: “ Still not the same comparison, I'm afraid. Whose life was a better example of the ideals of Christianity: the Apostle Paul (post-Damascus) or VPW...” Again, you forget the record as you shoot from the hip. Dr said, wrote, and chiseled “I wish I were the man I know to be.” In Dr's second to last published tape teaching "The Hope" he makes an interesting statement almost identical to the one you just made. However he also adds a rejoinder that stands IN CONTRAST to the first remark. This occurs about half way through the teaching, and is in the Way Magazine J/A 1985 p.10. "I have never and I will never put myself in the shoes of the Biblical apostles -- Peter, Paul, or any of the others -- but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God they spoke and taught." The phrase "--but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God they spoke and taught" is set in contrast to "never put MYSELF in the shoes" [with my caps]. What does he mean by this second phrase, beyond the notion of contrasting with the first? I'll bet it jives with all the 90 plus other "Thus saith the Lord" statements I've found in print, and the 25 sound clips I compiled on tape. If we want to see a man who lives what Dr put in print we need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ. *** You then shot from the hip: “There is every indication.....” STOP! That’s all I need to read here. You are SOOOO lacking in comprehension of SOOOO many indicators that when you use the phrase “every indication” my eyes glaze over. Get some idea of what the record indicates, instead of your partially informed and faulty memory and then I’ll be able to read more. I have every indication you speak about that which you have no knowledge. *********************************************************** Goey You wrote: “Paul changed after his conversion. He repented of his deeds...” We have no indication of how well Paul did in many departments of his life except what is written. We see in scripture that he endured much persecution. We also see that he betrayed God in a nostalgia fit in going to Jerusalem. We also see in Romans 7 that he admitted that he had a rotten old man nature. You act as if you have at your disposal all the details of his life, but you don’t. *********************************************************** Zixar You wrote: “For the umpteenth time, there is absolutely nothing outside of your own imagination that supports your assertion that Wierwille wrote PFAL theopneustos.” For the umpteenth plus one time, I do have plenty. First of all, he SAID so, which is denied by many here. I have found where he said it many times, AND it was ignored by us all. The fact that none here can seem to remember or even find these many “Thus saith the Lord” statements proves to me how much I need to NEVER listen to your wisdom or knowledge. I have seen how the writings FIT for many years, and how well they work when I work them. I’m convinced enough to bet my life on them. If you ever finish working the writings like you were told to, you will see this too. As for proof to you before you undertake a real mastery? Forget it. You can wait for the Bema for that, but it will be too late. It’s not my job to prove anything to you. I simply announce the truth and you can break yourself on it or try it out and see it. *** You wrote: “You have no real audience here, Mike. You might as well grow up and face that fact.” I didn’t come here for acceptance, just the opportunity to make known what was forgotten or never absorbed at all. I am succeeding. Plus, there are SOME who have believed. There may be more. I don’t operate the way you do, so give up trying to get me to comply with your game. I got my own agenda and I got it from the True God and His Son. You wrote: “Since life is short, you might do better by moving your soap box to another street corner. The internet's a big place, and there's bound to be someplace where people might actually consider your secret mastery. Not here, though. You might as well be preaching to a row of empty chairs...” When I post here the number of people who read and respond is ten times the number who take notice of your blather. I think you’re just jealous. ******************************************************** IMF777, You wrote: “BG also predicted that the ministry would fall because of idolatry.” So did Dr predict the fall of TWI. The idolatry he saw was self worship of their own brains in most leadership. This continues here in many. BG was lost in some traditions. He predicted the fall of the ministry because we didn’t call the manifestations “gifts of the spirit” like everyone else. He had some things dead wrong and that’s why God was unable to help him reach the thousands with SIT and TIP that Dr reached. ********************************************************** CoolWaters, You wrote: “I am not insisting upon perfection in anyone. I am insisting that a person measure themselves by, and live up to, their own standards before they impose them upon me.” No one imposed anything on you at all in PFAL. Later on, due to your incomplete follow through in studying and understanding what Dr taught you were tricked into volunteering to hang out with a bunch of Corps Nazi idiots who imposed a lot of things on you. If you insist on Dr having to live up to what he taught in PFAL then you will not receive the benefits taught in those books. If you relinquish that stipulation and master the books in spite of Dr’s failure to be the man he knew to be, then you can become the light that those books are. Keep the stipulation and my message will not benefit you. You decide. ********************************************************** oldiesman, You wrote: “... I want to be very sure that I don't change my thinking and throw out biblical truths, simply because of Wierwille's walk (or lack of walking) in these truths in Christ. Truth should stand by itself, whether or not VPW lived up to it. Just an observation on my part: it's too bad some folks now disbelieve almost everything we learned in TWI because of disenchantment and disappointment with men's walks.” Amen!!! I too grieve for those who stipulate the need for a perfect teacher and pass up perfect teaching that they really do need. You also wrote: “VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?” Thanks for the fresh air, oldiesman. It was getting terribly stuffy in here. ******************************************************* dmiller, You wrote: “Can you seriously suggest that Jesus would teach from the PFAL booK?????” If I can seriously assert my belief that the PFAL writings are the God-breathed re-issue of God’s Word then it is a very small step to see that Jesus Christ would be very interested in it for himself and for us. You’re pretty new here and haven’t seen the reams I’ve posted on this GREAT news that God finished all the Biblical reconstruction work for us in PFAL. We need not fret over which miscopied manuscript fragments (that’s all that’s left of the originals) to run with any more. We don’t need to fret about OBTAINING the Word of God any more from flawed reconstructions, translations, or versions. All we need to do is apply all the keys we learned in the class to rightly divide what we were given in PFAL. The PFAL writings, in book and magazine form, were given by revelation from God. All other Bible versions, translations, and reconstructions were given to us by human scholars. Antiquity handed down to us only approximate forms of God’s Word. God solved this, starting in 1942, by teaching Dr His Word better than any scholar’s guess, and Dr taught it to us in its most ultimate form in the PFAL writings. We never fully received these writings, and usually would merely wing it on the tape versions of the class. Dr told us to master the writings over and over, but none of us heard this oft repeated instruction. As a result, calamity ensued and many problems. Jesus Chris appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so. ************************************************************* What The Hay, Both of your posts were very interesting regarding history and traditional institutions. Thank you. At the end of your first you wrote: “If history repeats itself, I have little doubt VPW will ultimately be elevated into the same class - like that of Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. I'm sure you may be wondering if it will happen any time soon. I dare say it will only happen to VPW much like it happened historically to all the other great men of faith - and that only happened to them after all their antagonists died off.” I do heartily agree with your last line. Ironically, it’s the belly aching of his critics that is helping to launch MORE attention to his writings, rather than less. His antagonists will run out of steam, but their venting only helps draw attention to him. However, I do not believe history will repeat itself here. I believe we are at the end of the era and BIG changes are in store. This is why God gave us PFAL. Here are three quotes from Dr’s 3rd to the last teaching on Resurrection Sunday 4-7-85, at the Atlanta Word in Business Conference. It was issued as Tape of the Month 3/88. The title of the teaching is "The Moment of a New Age." (1) “...for speaking in tongues is the external manifestation of the internal reality of God in Christ in you, the living reality and hope of glory. And what a new day. A new beginning day this is for us living at this time.” (2) “We have the external reality and presence and hope of Christ in us. So, this is a... moment of a new age began... at that time, and also for all of us it's a new beginning, for us living at this time.” (3) “It's a new age. We are Jesus Christ men and women.” The context of the first two of these quotes is the new age the Apostles entered as a result of the Resurrection. HOWEVER Dr adds this phrase each time: "...for us living at this time." The third statement stands alone in it's own context. Thanks for the second breath of fresh air. *********************************************************** Cynic, You wrote: “I was working from memory and thought Wierwille unpacked his assertions about man being sovereign over the acts of God...” I see better now what you were getting at. I do believe that man’s believing enables God to legally enter the adversary’s domain. God gave Adam dominance over this world and he gave it to the adversary. In THIS WORLD God needs believing to get things done. God knew in His foreknowledge all these limitations He would face to and planned accordingly to guarantee His ultimate victory. But in the meantime, I do see man limiting God. I know I have, much to my regret. *********************************************************** What The Hay, You wrote in your third post here: “WPW's contribution was simply: The Word of God is The Will of God, and that the bible is the revealed Word and Will of God.” I think it’s more. He led us all (no one gets missed) into the first three manifestations. He gave us God’s Word in written form, which when we finally master, will lead us into the next three manifestations. Then we can hear God clearly to usher us into the final three. I see the PFAL books, in general, leading us into the Appearing Administration, enabling us to see Jesus Christ and become like him. [This message was edited by Mike on February 03, 2004 at 5:35.]

Hi Oldiesman, Nice to see you again.

CoolWaters, God cannot be held responsible for the wrongdoings of those who say they were following Him but were really doing evil. If we insist on perfection in people we will ALWAYS be disappointed. This is also the case for ourselves. If we trust our own ability to edit from multiple sources, and ignore our own corruption, then our editing job will end up just as flawed as those we point fingers at. *********************** Zixar, I've never said that Dr did everything right or all that he should have done. He admitted this when on his gravestone. I've only pointed out that in one area, receiving and putting God's revelations into written form. The show is not over. Not all the chips are in. There are plenty more chapters to be played out in the future. I see, in the resurrections, plenty of time for apologies or anything else needed to set things straight in TAHT area. Meantime, we can master this Word we were given in PFAL to rise up and meet the Lord in the air.

Zshot, You wrote: “If the integrity of vpw is (at best) questionable… __ Then, wouldn’t any “revelation” that vpw reported to have questionable? __ Also, why would God give the type of revelation that vpw is said to have received who has “integrity issues” along with “alleged", “indiscretions”? __ The Bible states the qualities that leadership is to have. IMO, VPW, LCM and others fall very short of the standard set.” There is only one man who’s integrity is above question and that’s Jesus Christ. All the writers of the Bible were sinners; some much worse than all the stories we’ve heard of Dr. You should be questioning the writings of David and Solomon especially, if you maintain that attitude. Did you read about the prophesy of Balaam, the prophet who was “crookeder than a dog’s hind legs” which I’ve posted much about here? If you want to question God’s ability to get His revelations through to sinners, then you won’t be hearing much from above yourself. I’m thankful that God can discern who can get His Word into written form, even though other areas of their lives may be quite untrustworthy. We are not able to make such a crucial call, so we play it safe and look for people who, on the surface, appear to have integrity before WE can entrust an important job to them This is an illusion, because we are often blind to the hidden flaws in those we think we can trust. God is capable of seeing deep. Sometimes a man’s flaws are VERY deep and we can’t see them. Utilizing the “standard” you mention is the safest way we blind sense-knowledge humans can select other humans for important jobs. God is not blind and can see the deepest heart issues. God is capable of seeing that, though a man can’t be trusted in one area at all, in another area such as receiving revelation and putting it into written form, that same man CAN be trusted.

papajohn, We're ALL bad men, just different varieties of evil. Those of us who think they are NOT bad are the worst! They suffer from the most insideous sin of pride. Even your KJV testifies to this. The Bible versions you read had some very bad men involved in their production, even the original writers. Paul, when he was called Saul, was MUCH worse than a ruffian. I do leave the crap behind, in spite of its continually being brought and posted here. The good part is worth clinging to. The books are pure and uncontaminated, thanks to God's mighty hand, with the issues that bother you.

Cynic, You wrote: “Do you maintain that Wierwille's account in The Word's Way about Christ's birth being ever-available since the Fall, but held off while God waited for a woman to arise who would believe he could inseminate her miraculously is inerrant and God-breathed?” Could you tell me which pages you are referring to in WWAY? Also, have you done an exhaustive search of all the appearances of this topic in Dr's writings to us? If not, then your question is incomplete. I've learned that such exhaustive searches are necessary in properly discussing a topic of choice. We were taught that this is necessary in the class. It's pretty logical to see that any one topic may have crucial elements located in other places. Finding them all requires a serious effort, i.e., mastery. Isolating only one passage and forming an opinion is doomed to lead not where the original Author (God) would lead. I am not a master of these writings, but I am working on it. Because of the incomplete state of my knowledge, I refrain from premature crystallization on many such topics. There are only a few that I feel , after 6 years of study, to bet my life on my understanding being full. How complete is your study on this topic? It IS an interesting one. I’ve seen in my own life and in others that what we often call “believing” is an enthusiastic agreement or mental assent. This enthusiasm is mostly based on favorable circumstances surrounding the supposed “believing.” When the circumstances turn sour, the phrase “But, I WAS believing” is often heard. If it really was believing, like Shadrach’s, Mishaack’s, and Abendigo’s (please pardon my spelling), then it doesn’t flinch when the heat is turned up. Very few people engage in REAL believing. For no women (or men) to believe some one extremely momentous promise of God for 4000 years is not so outrageous and assertion when seen in this light. Look at how we all, many thousands of us, were scattered and our “believing” dashed when the ministry melted down in the late 80’s. Another thing to bring to the mix involving your question regarding the “women” preceding Mary is the figurative usage of the word woman. In God’s Word it’s often the case that “woman” refers to followers who could literally be of both sexes. One such example is all Israel being referred to as the “Bride of Christ.” This is an element I’d bring to the study of your topic, as well as anything else that God gave Dr to write on it in other places. Another thing to keep in mind is that Mary was not an isolated individual. Her believing was a result of the overall support system that brought her up and taught her. It can be argued, to the appreciation of those feminists whose dandruff may get a little ruffed by your topic, that all the women that proceeded Mary were surrounded by defective support systems due to the neglect of the men in charge. That Mary was the first to believe is the result of a VERY large number of favorable details finally lining up which were 4000 years in the making. That God would have been ready, willing, and able to pull off HIS end of the bargain in fulfilling Gen.3:16 should be comforting. That it took 4000 years for a woman to finally believe, REALLY believe, that promise should in NO WAY disparage the female sex. Without doing all the exhaustive research to answer your question, I CAN identify this one error (female disparagement) and cut it off at the pass. As you master this subject and find all those references I’d be very interested in obtaining a list ot the page numbers.

Schwaigers, You wrote: "TWI never bragged much on Jesus..." This was the case in the verbal tradition that evolved in the ministry, HOWEVER the contents of Dr's books reveal a completely different story. I invite you to see the glorification of The Lord Jesus Christ that is magnificently presented in book and magazine form by Dr. Wierwille, which we all missed. We paid great heed to the verbal tradition and sorely neglected the written materials God worked for our benefit. This is why Dr told us often to master the books. Our deaf ears to his pleas was our downfall and the ROOT cause of our captivity.

Hey! look who’s on top again!!! I’m king of the mountain!!! :D--> ;)--> :)--> :D--> ;)--> :)--> :D--> ;)--> :)--> :D--> ;)--> :)--> vickles, I agree with wyteduv58’s approach. I posted earlier that I didn’t like VPW at times, but that I belive in God’s abundant forgiveness, and that He gave Dr the revelations to put into writing that became the PFAL series of books. Like wyteduv58 posted, I hate what went wrong in Dr’s life, but I thank God for what went right. What I meant about Jesus Christ’s appearing was that if you want to maintain that what got printed in those books was tainted, then by what is written in I John 2:28, you will be not so happy to see Christ endorsing the contents of PFAL. Even VPW will face the consequences of I John 2: 28 for his personal life, just like I will too. I have come to see that as I separate my opinions of VPW’s flesh from the contents of the books, then I have something good to latch onto in those contents. I do NOT latch onto the man VPW, nor do I idolize him. I praise the God who had such abundant grace and mercy to work with VPW in spite of his flesh, and Who works with me and you in spite of our flesh. Thank you for the humor compliment. :)--> I'm trying to ne more friendly, even in the debating. ************************************************************** wyteduv58, That was a very good post. Thank you. Please thank your husband for me. I just want to quote it for clarity. You wrote: “I truely hate to say this but, God forgives us as he forgives VPW. Remember hate the sin not the sinner. I have openly voiced my dislike of VPW. And it took alot of my husbands teachings on the subject to finally swallow my pride and admit that he is right, so I have decided to forgive VPW (even tho he never asked me to). __ God I hate being wrong, thats one of many things I am guitly of. __ And I still hate what he did to my beautiful sisters in the word.” **************************************************************** GarthP2000, Ok.... ok... I could be wrong. In his glorious appearing Christ MAY teach us out of a “The Bible Tells Me So.” ***************************************************************** WhiteDove, I think he downloaded that CD of all Dr’s books that’s been circulating around. ***************************************************************** Cynic, I used to think of that kind of possibility. I stopped when I finally came back to PFAL and started reading. As I found wonderful light that gave glory to God and helped me immensely in my life I changed and stopped thinking of that possibility. I now know that, although the ministry belly flopped in most categories, the books are MORE than they were advertised. This is good news to all who will to open them and read. [This message was edited by Mike on February 02, 2004 at 3:02.]

vickles, When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it.

vickles, If you had a description of the Apostle Paul, prior to his Road to Damascus conversion, you would surely come up with some a similar pyscho-babble. I know MANY people who insist that even Paul’s POST conversion story is psychotic. I’ve seen a description, very generic and general, of Jesus Christ’s life, and it sounds to the reader as if he was a total failure. Have you seen that? You have reason to be scared. Your world will come crashing down on you when you see Christ in his glory. It’s not too late to change. I happen to KNOW you really need to think about THIS. **************************************************************** Golfie, I think you need to take your beef to Research Geek. He’s the one who first posted that.

Who would you rather be? The swimmer who is... a) nearly saved? b) almost drowned? ************************************************************* Who would you want to teach you? The man who has... a) low integrity but is increasing it daily? b) high integrity but is decreasing it daily? ************************************************************* Here’s a re-worked version of a posting I did on Dr’s youth. On staff for two years, I worked with lady who had gone to high school with Dr, and I heard a lot of stories from her. We worked alone most of the time and had many day-long discussions of how Dr grew up and matured in his wisdom. The stories I've heard! This woman give me great insights into the earlier phases of Dr's ministry. When in high school, she told me, VPW was a very rough, tough, near hoodlum type of person. She told me he would crash parties he wasn't invited to just for spite. It was a common thing that he would start fights, and usually win. He could win with words and with his athletic prowess. He was a genius, ruffian, jock, bully. To show off for the ladies and intimidate the guys, one of young Vic's tricks would be to blast through New Knoxville at fast speed very loudly on his motorcycle, STANDING on the back seat, arms stretched out crucifixion style. When this young VPW went into the seminary, the townsfolk and county folk thought he was going there as a joke just to beat up the seminarians. This is one reason his ministry never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his. She then told me stories of his young pastorate and how AGAIN he was a terror to those around him. Remember, he opens up "Christian Family and Sex" with a story of how he was brought up so strict that looking at himself in a mirror naked would be considered sin. It was a medical doctor who challenged him to consider how the human body was awesomely constructed, and that it said so in the Bible. In Dr's young pastorate he was a terror in legalistic strictness. It's funny how many of us go from one extreme to the other at times. I can relate to this. Dr was so strict, she told me one day, trying so hard to control the laughter, that she couldn't finish the sentence. Regaining her composure, she looked around to make sure if the door was closed and our boss couldn't hear. Just between us, Mike, she confided, I'm sworn to secrecy about this and she continued. Young pastor Vic was so strict about purging RC paganism from his church in the 1940's that he sent chills down people's spines if they dared to get Christmasy in December. Christmas trees were totally forbidden in the church building as if they were a Germanic phallic god. But a few couples founded a secret strategy for dealing with pastor Vic's violent temper, and they all swore to never tell on each other. The statute of limitations on these secrets 1940's strategy has run out and they've been recently de-classified. They method they'd devised for dealing with this very difficult young pastor's wrath was they mounted their Christmas trees ON WHEELS! This way on Sunday afternoon if it was their turn to chicken-dinnerize the pastor, they'd simply wheel the tree into the back bedroom. She said they'd do practice drills to see how fast they could remove all Christmas decoration evidence in case of an unexpected visit from the pastor. We were both in tears laughing whenever this topic came up while working together those years. The Christmas story doesn't end there, though. She said Dr went through a BIG change when he started speaking in tongues in the early 1950's. My co-worker would nod her head and say things like: "You know how he mentions in the class how SIT will build love and fruit, well Dr is THE prime example of that. Dr changed a lot with SIT. He really mellowed out and developed a lot of love like Uncle Harry. He went through a MASSIVE set of changes in those early fifties, and still is changing. He amazes me. So does his wife. She has to be a very special kind of person to put up with him the way she does." When sexual things popped up a bit in SNS tapes she'd get a little nervous and say "I wish he wouldn't get that way." We both wished he were the man he knew to be. We wished we were too. I'm finding out how to be the man I know to be in coming back to PFAL. It was bigger than Dr; PFAL was a team effort of many others who also had the same spirit connection to God that Dr had. The lady who told me those stories helped set things for me. She was walking with God. Another team member in the production of PFAL was Uncle Harry. My co-worker told me how he would balance off Dr's rough edges often. I saw this in my stay at HQ myself. She told me how the Christmas story got balanced in the earlier years by Uncle Harry. One year, at a holiday party Uncle Harry showed up in a Santa Clause suit and handed candy canes out to all the kids. He did this in defiance of Dr's anti-Christmas stance, and helped force a bit of balance back into the mix. The early ministry was a mix of many people getting many revelations. Dr was the ring leader. God was working it all in spite of the frailties of all the participants. The PFAL revelations were put into writing as a team effort. I've posted here before about how all the bad stories about Dr are actually mitigated, softened with the knowledge of how he had IMPROVED his life in these categories. His slip-ups are well documented, but we know nothing of how many temptations he resisted to revert to his old man ruffian past habits. I'm told by my co-worker his walk was a massive change for the better. Dr’s sins are rare enough to have many say of their stay at HQ "I never saw anything myself, but..." This is by far the most common testimony of those who worked on the team that produced the PFAL writings. I'd like to close here with this: May I inject some thoughts that I NEVER hear passed about? In the liberal/conservative debate over gun control, liberals often cite statistics of gun deaths to support their side. Usually conservatives are less eloquent in their argument, but now and again someone will challenge the gun-death statistics with a question like "How many deaths and robberies are prevented because of the likely existence of a gun being owned by an intended victim?" Of course, a statistic like this is very hard to discern, but it COULD be far greater than the liberal statistics. Likewise with Dr, for every story of sin held in the heart about Dr, how many stories of him RESISTING temptation are held? None I’ll bet. Who could know of the resistance? This is a statistic that is impossible for anyone but God to discern! If it's the case that Dr's resistance record is FAR GREATER than his sin record, then what kind of re-evaluation is deserved here? Pray don't find fault with the man who limps or stumbles along the road Unless you have worn the shoes he wears, or struggled beneath his load. There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt, though hidden away from view, Or the burden he bears...placed on your back, might cause you to stumble too. Don't sneer at the man who's down today, unless you have felt the blow That caused his fall or felt the shame that only the fallen know. You may be strong, but still the blows that were his... if dealt to you, In the selfsame way at the selfsame time might cause you to stagger too. Don't be too harsh with the man who sins or pelt him with word or stone Unless you are sure...yea doubly sure that you have no sins of your own... For you know...perhaps if the tempters voice should whisper...as softly to you As it did to him...when he went astray could cause you to falter too. Author Unknown .

OK everyone. I'm taking over this thread. It's mine now. I'm on top. You all have to respond to me now. Brady's been dethroned. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ;)--> Just kidding... this was an accidental double post. :)--> :D--> -->

Schwaigers, Many times I've posted that when he was alive, I slightly disliked the man VPW at times. In the past 6 years I have come to see that his WRITTEN teachings TO US are not his, but God's. God's Word is as much God as God is God. The order in my heart is: 1 - God/God's Word 2 - The written revealed Word 3 - The Word made flesh, Jesus Christ. The reason I put Jesus last was not to antagonize the religious, but to indicate that without the written Word, Jesus could not have been the man he became, and without the written Word we will not be able to tell the difference between him and the antichrist. The man VPW, with his strengths and weaknesses, is not even on the list, but I did admire his strengths and am thankful for his work that so greatly benefited me. His weaknesses, the few I saw first hand, were just as stinky as my old man nature (with a different variety of odor). What do yours smell like? You don’t have to answer that. It’s just rhetorical. If I had known VPW better, I may have admired him more, or I may have had more stench to overcome. I don’t know. It’s impossible to get WHAT IFs straight. I KNOW I don’t idolize him. I worship the God Who gave him an abundance of revelations sot that WE can benefit. Dr himself said on tape, wrote on paper, and chiseled in stone that he himself did not benefit from his own writings as much as we can benefit from them. He said, printed, and chiseled: “I wish I were the man I KNOW to be.” If that’s not what you folks are looking for in a plain admission of guilt, nothing will satisfy you. . . . . . . Plus, I saw in a movie once, that love means never having to say you're sorry. That settles it! ;)-->