Mike

Oakspear, You wrote: “Okay, what's the verse? FINALLY! Someone finally asks! I will get to it soon. I did mention that it is in I Cor. 7 so you can start looking there for it, and getting familiar with the context. I will get to it soon, but I’m almost out of time right now.

When you start reading my posts better.

shazdancer, You wrote: “You attempted to discuss "abundance" as meaning spiritual abundance. But that is not all of what VPW taught. He also taught that material abundance was part of the package.” Yes, I agree to this. I simply stated that we need to adopt God’s definition of abundance and not this world’s definition. The MAIN part of the abundance is spiritual, but material is also included. I’ve posted this in several spots lately. It’s too bad this abundance discussion is taking place on two threads at once. *** Wierwille taught that God was gonna meet your need (not greed) when you believe, right down to the itty-bitty details (red drapes).” YES! *** You wrote: “Then he goes on to teach that our greatest need is a spiritual one, that we have no holy spirit, and are incomplete, cut off from God, no eternal life.” YES! *** You wrote: “But that DOESN'T negate that he teaches material abundance.” YES! *** You wrote: “So now you want to say that you REALLY meant that you have you are free from fear, unlike kings?” Here I’d substitute “ALSO” for your use of “REALLY.” *** You wrote: “Sorry Mike, I also work for many very wealthy people who are doing just fine in the freedom-from-fear department.” Very few people are going to admit their fears to us. Only a very few of my 20 year customers have done this with me. I work in people’s homes, where I see their living procedures, their locks, their alarm systems, their watch dogs, their libraries. Some I’ve been working for over 20 years. I see some of their fears even though they put on a face of fearlessness. It also may be that in the area where you are there are less of the stresses that occur in some of the bigger cities. The coastal cities are far more devilish that the interior of the country. Plus, it is commonly reported that when people win the lottery or suddenly acquire great riches, the stresses hurt them greatly, and in many ways unimaginable to us who have a more balanced form of material abundance like I’ve already discussed. *** You wrote: “So now you have been reading and studying PFAL as if it was Holy Writ for at least six years. One would think you would have something to show for it” I do have. But do you really think my description of my abundance is going to mean anything to anyone here? Suppose one of my rewards for my study was to have a mansion and many cars and a staff of helpers. Would I want to spend time with a grad who decides to come back to PFAL for such a shallow reason as gaining material over-abundance? I think not. I’m GLAD that I don’t have such false powers of persuasion, because I only want to work closely with those grads who want to come back to PFAL out of a love for God and an thankfulness for what great things they learned in their first exposure. I’m glad that the level of worldly riches I enjoy filters out air-head grads, because I don’t have time to wait for them to mature. *** You wrote: “...after all, it didn't take Paul six years to get from being a Christian-killer to doing some pretty mighty works.” Actually you might want to research this out, but my impression is that Paul spent 7 years in the desert first, checking it all out after the Road to Damascus incident, and then it was an additional 14 years before he really got cooking with the mystery. I could be wrong about this, but I know I don’t feel bad about how slow it may look I’m progressing. I know that in my heart is there is an exciting adventure in learning taking place every day. I don’t think I could handle a faster pace. *** You wrote: “Picked any winning horses lately? (Ya gotta love that analogy of VPW's -- it goes so against the grain of everything he taught about when revelation is given.)” You are forgetting some of the details of the horses. He himself admitted that the horses thing was “against the grain.” He told us that he was simply LEARNING how get revelation then. Just to refresh your memory, here is a portion of segment 9 of the ’79 AC: “A great many of these things, regarding the revelation manifestations, I learned because, I believe, of God's abundant grace. When I think about that tonight, while I - er this session, while I'm teaching you, I get chills running up and down my spine by what I'm saying. 'Cause today, I would never, quote "tempt" end of quote, God like I did once. I didn't know, nobody'd taught me like I'm teaching you, I just didn't know! So I was "stupid"! And God, in His infinite mercy and grace, Gosh He was just so fantastic. Ha-ha! “I remember the time that, what's that street called, past Marshal Fields {store} in Chicago? Michigan avenue, I think. Goes past Marshal Fields in Chicago. I wa- what? Michigan? What ever they said, is right. O.K.? You know, I was too embarrassed to do it in Van Wert, {Ohio} 'cause everybody knew me in Van Wert. So I couldn't work in Van Wert, I was too embarrassed to try it. So, I went some place were nobody would know me, ya know, just nobody. And I did it at an hour, on that street where Marshal Fields, in Chicago goes, when they go out for lunch and there's just thousands of people go by, you know, and nobody knows me. So, I thought, boy, that's a real way to learn. “So I, hah, I did that, ha-hah, really somethin'. And I walked down that street and here were all these people coming out for lunch and I'd say: "Father, is that one a Christian or not a Christian?" Then God would show me a Big white heart, and I'd walk by and I'd say "Pardon me, but are you a Christian?" and they'd say "Yeah", wonderful! I'd say; "Thank-you", I'd keep going, see? Ha-ha-hah! Then I'd keep on walking, you know, and I'd say: "Father, how about that one, is that one a Christian?" and God would show me a big old black rotten heart. And I'd say to him: "Sir, pardon me, but are you a Christian?" . . . "Hell, no!" Whew, I'd say "Thank-you, Lord!" Ha-ha-ha! - That's how I learned a lot of this stuff." “Today, when I think about it, I get chills running up and down my spine. But I had nobody to teach me like I'm teaching you, and going to teach you. Nobody unfolded - there just wasn't any Word that was unfolded to me along these lines, I did not know! And that's why, I think, God leaned over backwards, as I told you, to teach me a lot of these things, so that I can teach it to you, I guess. Ha-hah, yeah. “This week, while the great runners were running from Rome City to Athens here, and I think that was significant to run from Rome to Athens with light. (laughter) They stopped in Van Wert, and I took a lot of our people to the Van Wert county fair grounds. Mrs. Wierwille and I, we rode our motor cycles, our motor cycle to Payne, and met 'em there, then we went on to Van Wert and met 'em there. Then I took a lot of our people that - all-all of them that weren't running, we went over to the Van Wert county fair grounds, showed them where we used to have our Van Wert Gospel Gift Shop and other things. “Then I showed 'em the old fence up there - it's still there, same place, where I picked out all the winners that day for every race. And I don't know a lousy thing about horses, except I know the rear end is where the tail is and the head is where that elongated rectangular thing is-that's all I know about race horses. I- you know, I just went to the Kentucky derby by Mr. Reynolds up at Reynolds Tobacco Company or Reynolds Aluminum, this year, by His grace and mercy. I don't know anything about horses. Betting on a horse would be about like, I don't know what, it's stupid for me, I don't know anything about it. So, I said; "Hey, Father, which one's gonna win this race?" and He said "Number seven." so, I'd write down number 7. Second race, who's gonna win it? He said number 3, so I write down 3. “Next to me I had a man who knew horses inside and out who was an official man betting on horses all the time. That afternoon, he never won one race, I won every one of them. And I didn't bet, but I won every one of them, by picking them ahead of time. You talk about God's mercy and grace, you see why I sit with fear and trembling when I even tell you these things 'cause God just leaned over backwards to teach me - He knew all the time which dumb horse was gonna win. And He was just teaching me that He was God and revelation isn't stupid. “Now I'm not advocating you go out and bet at the Kentucky derby, ya might flup-yer-dub or something, but He was teaching me and that's the love and the mercy of God, and the grace of God that, class, I cannot tell you how thankful I am to God for His love, and mercy, and grace. I don't think there's any other man living that loves God any more than I love Him today. And no one who's more thankful to God for His grace and mercy. And I was so blessed when Vince taught you the greatness of grace, today and believing. That was absolutely exquisite. And, I just so thankful, but that's how He had to teach me, simple little things like that. That's how I learned. Really somethin'. Heh-heh.” *** You wrote: “I haven't exhausted any supply of debate against your points, Mike. I just think that when a blind man says, "Walk in here, you will get perfect 20/20 vision," I gotta question that statement, since the blind man hasn't received the gift himself. Life is short, I'm not going to waste it chasing a carrot on a stick.” You have a good point here. I’m still trying to track this down, and so far I only found one person who remembers this, but Dr taught in an earlier AC that when Naaman went to Elisha for healing, Elisha was blind! It’s not in the ’79 AC and I can’t find it in my KJV, but this would explain why Elisha didn’t go out to meet Naaman. Naaman had a hard enough time believing anyway, and God protected him from seeing Elisha blind. Now Elisha’s blindness didn’t prevent him from operating the power of God, but like Jesus in his home town, the believing of others must be in operation. So, you can operate your life like the natural man Naaman and fail to see what I’m saying is true because of your reliance on your senses. OR, you can listen to God. [This message was edited by Mike on March 07, 2004 at 15:33.]

Doze, You wrote: “In the past many here approached VPW's writings with same meekness as you.” NO! Some here may have done a lot of study in their first exposure to the books, and I am included in this group. However this group (me included) never approached the books like I do now. I’m talking the same kind of meekness to the PFAL books that we used to do with the KJV and critical greeks. I’m talking about using the same kind of mastery techniques we used on the KJV now to be used on the PFAL writings, including word studies. Many did KJV based word studies back then, but no one did serious PFAL based word studies. *** You wrote: “If we did not fully understand or comprehend we followed his instructions and held it in abeyence until could comprehend. Problem was he as our "teacher" did not allow his propositions to be questioned by us.” BS! I happened to park right next to Dr’s camper at the 1972 Rock and I had three pages of questions I got to ask him over the course of that Rock. He also invited us to write him in the class. I know many people who did. There’s one poster here who told me about a question she wrote to Dr near his death which he answered. Maybe you didn’t know how to approach him, but he was approachable. *** You wrote: “He sacked researchers on his own research staff that challenged any tenet of PFAL.” Yes, and this used to bother me to no end, until I realized why that department was there. If Craig had listened to Dr’s last advice as President at his installation in 1982, he would have phased out the research department, or radically changed it’s mission. Dr said that night that all the basic research was done, but no one heard it really. I posted the entire transcript of this here. *** You wrote: “It is you sir who brought up rules of debate, rhetoric and logic. Your even referenced other sources now only to say you are playing by a different set of rules...” As for rules of debate, rhetoric and logic, I was very clear in my post what I meant. You read it wrong. Let me point it out again: “I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions.” This sentence slipped by you, as did many things Dr wrote. *** You wrote: “This is even more preposterous Mike. I do not cry or stamp my feet nor have I called you an idolater. I do think it is blasphemous to say Jesus Christ will be teaching out of the orange PFAL book.” Oh, so I’m not an idolater, just a blasphemer! Do you even read poorly what you write yourself? Of course, the crying ans stamping of feet was a figure of speech, and appropriate to many here, maybe even you. *** You wrote: “My guess is that even VPW himself would agree.” Your guess is not based on a careful scrutiny of what is written. You are loaded with TVT and very little of the Written Word we were given in the PFAL books. I found 90 places where he asserts that PFAL is the written Word of God. Of course, most of these are very subtle and would not satisfy most here. There are two overt ones though on pages 32 and 116 of TNDC. *** You wrote: “After the return of Christ there will be no need to teach out of a book containing limited knowledge that will be obsolete compared to what will be available to us then.” You know very little of the details of the Gathering. Yes it is true that AFTER the Gathering is all over we will have no need for physical books, but to GET US UP THERE Jesus Christ teaches us out of the written Word from his Father. It’s the written Word that teaches us how to distinguish the spiritual voice of the Father from the close counterfeit voice of the devil. There are MANY details of the Gathering that we need to learn, and they are in the books.

vickles, You wrote: “Mike, no it is not tvt. How things are written and how vpw carried them out are how you get the control.” Dr definitely did control the programs and the activities of his paid staff and the volunteers in the programs. This is right and proper. Control was needed. We were wild hippies or near that in the 70’s. In 1982 he relinquished all that control. That is a sign of someone who is not hungry to control people’s lives, only the machinery of the 5-senses corporation. Remember, we who were “controlled” in the way I’ve described all volunteered to work under his guidance, and remember that the vast majority of grads were NOT in this category. Yes, when Craig and the Corpse Nazis took over after 1982 things got progressively worse and worse. Now, when I declare that the books are from God, this should be good news, not smacking of even a hint of abusive control, because the control structure has been decimated. Even TWI-x is on their knees still reeling from Craig’s recent decapitation. Even they are far less controlling now, but the book situation is totally missing the control structure. *** You wrote: “About a child's believing. Are you telling me that they have to be an adult to have the law of believing?” No, that’s NOT what I was saying. I meant that if a child (or if a childish adult grad) attempts to operate the law of believing willy nilly based on a mere desire, and not based on a promise of God, it ain’t gonna work! Please go back and read that post of mine and yours to see this. *** You wrote: “So about the spirits thing. Ok so your not saying we are possessed persay but your saying that we have a spirit of oppression or spirits hanging around us to make us not listen to you. What your saying is some kind of spirit is doing this to us. I really believed that crap for many years, I don't need to believe it anymore.” Hey! Jesus Christ himself was oppressed by spirits at times. In the desert he heard a voice that was not from the senses, he had a hallucinatory false vision, and he was even physically abducted to a high place. If someone is NOT affected by spirits and satan in this way they may very well be of little threat to the adversary. It’s no shame to be hounded by the adversary. It should be expected if you are walking with the True God. Dr taught us that we are not responsible for thoughts that occur to us, but we are responsible if we “allow them to lodge in our hair.” *** You wrote: “As I said before I sure wouldn't want to live in your shoes. Always trying to achieve something in your life as in your mastering and never getting there because it is unattainable.” The books are an easy read. They are definitely masterable. What’s NOT masterable is your KJV, as I pointed out in my fourth post on the first page of my “Masters of the Word – Mastering PFAL.” No scholar in the world has ever mastered the KJV, the critical Greek texts or the ancient fragments.

This question was answered in GREAT detail by Daniel McConaughy in a Way Magazine GMIR article titled “Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53” in the May/June 1982 issue.

mj412, Bless you. :)--> [This message was edited by Mike on March 07, 2004 at 1:59.]

dmiller, You're confusing the PFAL books with the stinky TVT. They are very different.

Doze, You wrote: “If we (dissenters) do not accept your basic proposition regarding PFAL being the inerrant/inherent "Word of God" then we therfore are considered unworthy or unlearned in it's mastery...” This is not my position. You are misunderstanding some subtle points. I have posted many times now that I have a verse that will show how attitude is MOST important in working AEs and in mastering PFAL the way we need to. YET, no one has expressed the slightest desire to hear the verse. Without the attitude of meekness toward the material, many things will slip by unattended to. Here’s one such subtle point: It’s not the unworthiness of the researcher that I emphasize, it’s the unworthiness of the TECHNIQUE non-meek researchers use that is deficient. Heck, I can hang out with people who aren’t meek to PFAL and like them. I did so last night with three GreaseSpot posters from this board. We had pizza and beer by the beach and had a WONDERFUL time. It was difficult to leave their presence. I was privileged to be in their company. They understand that I consider them PLENTY worthy to hang out with and enjoy. They know it’s their techniques for examining the details of PFAL that I distance myself from. Why can’t you see it this way too? *** You wrote: “There are many here who are your equal in debating these issues (and I am not one of them)...it is you who use distraction, by dismissing their arguments out of hand because of their insistance on scrutinizing the writings of Victor Paul Wierwille.” I’m not here to debate, but to simply deliver the message. I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions. But as for a full blown logical proof, that can only be transmitted from the Author of the books to the mastering reader of the books. It’s only when people insist on such a full blown proof, or that I submit to THEIR full blown dis-proof that I will employ methods that are Biblical (dodge, distract, etc) but that really rile those who insist I engage using their ground rules. Sorry it’s MY rules as I received from God that I employ here regarding my message, not yours or anyone else’s. You and Rafael and an army here can cry, and stamp your feet, and call me an idolater all you want. You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.

Rafael 1969, You wrote: “Thoughtful dissent was exhausted? When did that happen?” When? Look at the immediate context in which I made the statement. It’s all on one page. You are broadening the context in which I made the statement. There are other pages and threads where there is very thoughtful dissent that’s not been exhausted. I was referring to many (but not all) of the posters in the immediate vicinity on page 30. I think you look for opportunities to call me an idolater and you pounce without checking first. Your labeling me has zero effect on me. I pay attention to where you rightly divide but not when you label like that. Surely you know this. Or do you? Your opinion on who is sinning and who is not sinning is of no importance to me. You are not God and He did not appoint you His judge.

GarthP2000, You wrote: “...the person's character is attacked (Of course it is. When the other person's character, which is supposedly part of his message, is sadly lacking...” Just WHO made this supposition for you? My character is NOT part of my message. You wrote: “...but at the very *least*, the messenger is expected to comport himself in a way that is compatible to the message, else he ruin it.” My character flaws can only ruin it for those who want it ruined in the first place. My character flaws can slow down receiving the blessings for those who DO want it, and therefore I work on myself by working God's Word. Besides you have hardly had an opportunity to measure my character.

shaz, On this subject of a king’s abundance, you mentioned that current kings enjoy more than us. I disagree. I work for many very rich people. I see in many a set of pains we have never dreamt of. A few have admitted them to me. They live in daily fear of lawsuits and kidnappings. They fear for their children’s welfare in very exotic ways. These are fact based fears. I heard a radio report ten years ago that in one South American country, the kidnapping of children for ransom money is so rampant that kidnappers often accept checks! The police are so swamped with cases there is plenty of time to cash the check. There is a verse somewhere that records a prayer for avoiding poverty AND for avoiding too many riches. God’s idea of abundance is somewhere in the balance between the two. Someday I’ll find it. Until then, these stand out in my mind: James 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you I Timothy 6:5-19 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

metastic&ocular, You wrote: “...so now you compare yourself to a king...” No I compared the blessings and abundance in my life to that of a king's. Please read more carefully.

vickles, How many times does Dr mention serving and love in that article? Count them. He does mention controlling people in there and he mentions that it's bad! Did you even read it? Seriously? *** Earlier you wrote: “I'm sure that child probably is believing that the parent is going to give that child what he wants.” It’s believing a promise of God that we were taught is necessary, not just any old desire. *** You wrote: “Is his needs and wants parallel? I'm sure he believes it is from a childish perspective.” Who cares? A childish perspective doesn’t count here. The needs and wants have to be truly parallel, not just thought to be parallel. The child must grow up and rightly divide these things. *** You wrote: “Obviously, your not a parent and believe what vpw says on who killed that little child.” Have you taken the time to accurately see “what vpw says on who killed that little child” or do you just wing it on TVT? I have posted on the Masters thread and others many details that you are probably unaware of in “what vpw” says on that subject. One such item is the difference between full blown fears and mild concerns. Everyone wrestles with worries and anxieties, even Jesus Christ. The question is do we allow them to mature into real negative believing fear? You need to upgrade your understanding of this. Hang around the Masters thread where this is a hot topic lately and you’ll learn more, Learning is an exciting adventure. *** You wrote: “Mike, I don't see anyone calling you names here. ... I don't think anyone has been rude to you lately.” You don’t see the venom in some posters? If you don’t you are not paying attention. If I were to address you the way they talk to me you’d be in tears. *** You wrote: “LOL about the spirits. I guess we are possessed for disagreeing with you...huh?” NO! I have posted many times here that one terrible item in the TVT is what you just expressed. All someone has to do is mention spirits and it automatically possession that pops into your mind. Tell me this: why didn’t oppression or satan pop up as possible meanings of my statement when I mentioned spirits? Do you know the difference between possession, oppression, and satan? Do an “Advanced Search” on these words with my name in the “Author” filter box and you’ll learn the differences. *** You wrote: “My motive for posting is trying to get you to understand where a lot of us are coming from. It seems to be a lost cause though.” No, it’s not a lost cause at all because I already know where you are coming from. Not only did I read Waydale and GreaseSpot for years before posting, at one time (or several) I had the exact same feelings and opinions. Then I changed.

I can't overstate the importance of the final instructions Dr. Wierwille gave us, and the adversary's successful campaign that, still to this day, hides these final instructions from our awareness. These are still un-executed instructions that our father in the Word gave us in his last days with us. We have seen the destruction that has hit most all of our brothers and sisters, especially the top leadership of the Body. I firmly believe the disobedience of these final instructions, being in a long line of flagrant disobedience by most of us (including me) is the ultimate reason for all the ministry problems as well as the personal problems we may have. I do believe we and the people we minister to will never reach "all nine all the time" without these final instructions firmly implemented. Have you yet learned how to receive revelation to the degree Dr reported in the Advanced Class where he went to the races and got all ten horses correct from God? There's a reason why none of us have gotten proficient in the "other" six manifestations. There's a reason we all failed so badly at keeping the unity of the spirit we once enjoyed, and the mishandling of this last teaching of Dr's is THE smoking gun as to what went wrong. We all defiantly distanced ourselves from taking seriously the advice that Dr gave us, and we forgot that God Almighty commissioned Dr to give us the Word like it had not been known since the first century. We have drifted into giving greater respect to the scholars and religious leaders who produce VERSIONS of the scriptures, like the KJV and the NIV, and we have failed to master the writings that God gave to Dr by revelation. Please take this teaching VERY seriously. Dr said he wanted to be SURE this would contain the MOST important things he could have told us. The adversary agreed that this teaching was paramount, and that is why he influenced us all to dismiss this MOST vital teaching. I have challenged a number of grads, some leaders, to take out a blank sheet of paper and reconstruct from memory a rough outline or even a few lines of what Dr's dying last words to us were. NOT EVEN ONE COULD DO IT! Let's change that. ******* Has anyone compared the tape transcript of this Last/Lost Teaching to the magazine article? I just searched and searched GreaseSpot for the Way Magazine version of this teaching and it seems I’ve never posted it. I did post the tape transcript in the first page of this post. I will post the magazine article below so those who don’t have the magazine can still do the comparison. There are 56 changes I have noticed so far that the transcribers and editors of the magazine made to the tape of Dr's in this last teaching. Some of these changes fall into the abomination category, in my opinion. Some were deliberate and some were accidental. These words were Dr’s dying last words to us, and they should have received the utmost attention. I will use bold fonts to mark the spots where one deliberate change and one accidental change were made that are indicative of the attitude most of us had toward Dr and his words. The deliberate one is toward the end and the accidental one is near the middle. The accidental one is a set of missing sentences. It seems that either in the transcription or the editing process 5 sentences were lost. I remember in 1998, when first seeing the article, this section with the missing sentences read very strange. Two years later, when I finally found the tape, the same section read perfectly clear with the missing sentences in place. I think this is an accidental error, but it’s very telling that NO ONE caught it! Things got very sloppy by the mid 80’s. I fully admit to the same in my life. The deliberate one occurs near the end where Dr tells us for the SECOND time in this teaching that we need to master certain things. This second injunction is watered down in the magazine from the original three usages of the word "master" to only two, thus reducing the strength of this command. So here is the article: ************************************************************* The Way Magazine/ September-October 1986 "The Joy Of Serving" Victor Paul Wierwille May 12, 1985 This is the meeting here at this time of Country coordinators, and of course what I'm going to say should be applicable to every born-again believer, but especially to our coordinators. I wanted just to share a little bit tonight on the joy of serving. Number one, you can't serve unless you've got something to serve. So if you are going to serve a dinner, you have to have a dinner to serve, right? If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the Intermediate Class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people with. Twig and Twig Area coordinators, the Country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven't got the joy of serving, you've missed something in the Word of God you ought to put on. So number one, you've got to have some- thing to serve. The second thing you need is love. Ephesians 5:1 and 2: Be ye therefore followers [imitators] of God, as dear [or beloved] children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us ["you" is in the text], and hath given [gave up] himself for us [you] an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. I bet most of you thought I was going to read you I Corinthians 13. It wouldn't hurt you to read it sometime again and believe what it says! Then I want you to look at the Epistle of I John. 1 John 3:16 and 17: Hereby perceive we the love of God [agape], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? I'd also like to show you I Peter. I Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls... That's renewed mind because your soul is not purified when you are born again. It becomes purified as you renew your mind according to the Word. Verse 22: ...purified your souls in obeying the truth [there it is] through the Spirit unto unfeigned ["unfeigned" is genuine] love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. So first in the joy of serving you've got to have something that's served joyfully; secondly love, and then thirdly, the act of service itself. That's the joy and the order of it. I'll give you the four basic scriptural things relative to service as I know it from the greatness of the Word. They are Matthew 20:27 and following, Luke 22:24 and following, John 13:1 and following; and the one I want to read with you is from the Gospel of Mark. Mark 10:35: And James and John [two of the apostles], the Sons of Zebedee, come unto him [Jesus], saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. Sounds sort of selfish, doesn't it? Verses 36-42: And he [Jesus] said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of ? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with [referring to his death]? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. But [And] Jesus called them to him [all twelve], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. You see the world is just opposite of the teaching of the Scriptures. Their leaders exercise lordship over them; and then the great one, when he gets higher up on the ladder, he exercises authority over the top of them too. That's why so many times we have heard that money is power, because money buys people, and then people become the slaves of those who have the money. That's the world. Verse 43: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister. [That means minister to you.] *[You earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them, and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You just never tell anything; you just help people.]* Tape: See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his twig, among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he can minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know there's a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close to his people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really tell ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect. And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them-- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You just -- you just never tell anything; you just help people. Verses 43 and 44: But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest [the greatest, the top one], shall be servant [doulos] of all. He will not just be a minister but a servant of all, a doulos, marked out for serving God's people. Verse 45: For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. After all of my years, and our years of working with people, I think the joy of service is exactly, in a synopsis form, what I've given you. *[Number one, you have to take Power for Abundant Living and master it. You have got to master the Foundational and Inter- mediate Classes and the collaterals that go with them.]* Then you've got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, agape. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving. Tape: Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it – Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral's that go with it, you gotta master. I think that what has made The Way Ministry so wonderful all over the world, generally speaking, is that we have a lot of the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation among our people and that we are serving our people. So every Twig coordinator, Twig Area or Country coordinator, anybody that blesses people, even if you are not a Twig coordinator, you ought to master this so that you can help somebody in the shop or factory; or wherever you are, so that you have got answers for them. Outside of this ministry I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get them! That's right. This old church hymn was my graduation hymn: O Master, let me walk with Thee In lowly paths of service free; Teach me the wayward feet to stay, And guide them in the homeward way. Teach me Thy patience! still with Thee In closer, dearer company, In work that keeps faith sweet and strong, In trust that triumphs over wrong; In hope that sends a shining ray, Far down the future's broad'ning way, In peace that only Thou canst give, With Thee, O Master, let me live. [This message was edited by Mike on March 06, 2004 at 23:20.] [This message was edited by Mike on March 06, 2004 at 23:21.]

Hey y’all... Let me know when your tired of shooting the messenger and I’ll continue with the message. It amazes me that you folks you claim to totally reject my message (the portion I’ve posted and you read), yet for some strange reason you think it important to jeer at me and call me all kinds of names. I think I must be striking a nerve somewhere in someone, or in some spirits. Have you all ever closely examined your motives for posting on this thread? It might reveal something to you if you do a little introspection. Then again, I may be asking too much.

Doze, I have no desire to silence dissent. What I'm pointing out is that when a message is delivered, and thoughtful dissent is exhausted, the dissenters then turn on the messenger with thoughtless dissent. No, I don't want to silence dissent, only point out when dissenters have run out of arguments and try to shoot the messenger. In the field of debate, rhetoric, and logic, it's called the argumentum ad hominem. *** Research Geek did a very good thread on this at: http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc...=7776095921&p=1 And then I continued the thread at: http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...42&m=5036027881 And someone else sent me this link: http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm *** This third link has a nice outline of it all, and this is part of that outline. Fallacies of Distraction: Attacking the Person: (1) the person's character is attacked (2) the person's circumstances are noted (3) the person does not practice what is preached

shaz, Someday I’ll find the tape where Dr laments that many of his students get the misimpression that the abundance of John 10:10 is “carloads of money.” That’s the exact phrase he used. He then went on to explain that the REAL abundance is spiritual. It includes eternal life, the knowing that we have eternal life, and all the other promises of God, like having NEED met. When you think about it, seven of the nine manifestations are to benefit someone OTHER than the person operating them, so EVEN the spiritual power is not for self indulgence. I do think the reason we have freedom and abundance in America is so that PFAL could be given to us. There’s no other reason why this American experiment in liberty should be so wildly successful.

Garth, It's no secret that I reject your reality totally. Why mention the obvious? Nothing else to say?

vickles, Have you ever thought of being THANKFUL for the abundance of blessings we have? If you think through what I said right above, it may very well apply to you too, and many other people on this board. If you have your health you should be SOOOO thankful! If you never went hungry a single day in your life you should be SOOOO thankful! In my apartment I have unlimited free hot water. How many kings in antiquity had that? How many kings could travel at 65 miles per hour? How many kings lived past 50 years old? Of all the human beings that have ever lived, how many of them never went hungry a single day in their lives? I have a larger list of things like this I'm thankful for, just in case these don't sink in. Instead of listing them all I'll skip to the biggest. How many people in the past 20 centuries had The Word of God taught to them in the detail, coherency, and accuracy that we have had? We have been given a GRAND ABUNDANCE by God Almighty!!! Is THAT what you mean, vickles, by grandiose thinking? Hmmmmm?

I am showing you. It's in my other thread "Masters of the Word -- Mastering PFAL" and you're welcome to join. I have a very comfortable life, probably better than most kings who ever lived enjoyed. My life is better than 99.999% of all humans who ever lived. Plus, like I said above, I have a lot of data, and I'm getting more all the time. Learning is an exciting advernture. Have YOU had any adventures lately? I fully expect to grow into all nine all the time, now that I know what went wrong.

A long time ago I said I have a lot of data to report. I still do.

Thank you for contributing to this forum.

templelady, I thank you for your reading effort. I'm impressed. Also, remember that Jesus taught his apostles much more than he taught the people. We were in leadership programs in TWI so that we could help the people. Like Jesus' apostles, we need more material to go out and help others. The Sermon on the Mount is like a summary of the heart of the OT the people needed reminding of, to help them separate it from the heartless religion they were in. After TWI we needed similar refreshment, but if we want to go back into the Valley of Human Need we will need more material, just like the apostles needed more from Jesus.

templelady, Did you really read the whole thread, or just this one page? Tell me, were you aware of Dr's last teaching before now? I'd love to condense these things. They say the truth is simple, but I'm dealing with confusion, lies, entanglements, and counterfeits. Untangling the truth from such a mess can take time, and condensation is pretty much impossible.