Mike

I'm not posting here for MY sake. I'm reminding us all of our common roots. I'm reminding us all of what we forgot or that slipped by us when we were in The Way. I have no organization whatsoever to recruit people to. I merely point out the treasure that we got in and amongst all the baloney we suffered. I can explain the why's and the wherefore's of all that suffering better than anyone else.

Zixar, I'm only announcing Our Joshua, I'm not him in the flesh. BTW, isn't the name "Joshua" the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek name "Jesus" ?

Rafael 1969 Still you confuse the written Word with the spiritual Word of God. It’s the spiritual that’s totally perfect. Flaws always creep into the written as soon as it’s copied. They can usually be found and fixed if the period of time and the number of middlemen isn't too large. With the critical Greek texts it’s 1500+ years,, and thousands of middlemen. With PFAL it 15+ years and a small few middlemen. You also still confuse your method of reading to be the exhaustive way. It is not. You avoid the attitude of meekness and the different results it yields when reading and especially when mastering. You assume you have the correct story (when you don’t) with a defective reading attitude, and THEN you see contradictions in that story. You blame the author for a mistake in writing, when it’s you who have been mistaken due to your reading techniques. Have you read I Cor.7 to see the context of a verse I will someday use to show how this attitude makes a HUGE difference? [This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 15:10.]

Goey You wrote: “My analogy was simply descriptive and was offered to show by example why reading your every word is not necessary to see the folly of your position(s).” Thank you for admitting to your analogy. *** You wrote: “The Burden of Proof rests upon the one making the initial claim or statement...” Yes, that’s God. I’m simply announcing His position. He can shoulder the burden of proof, but you must go to Him and His recently re-issued Authoritative Word to see it. You must master it to see it. *** Let’s look at your new analogy: ----------------------------------------- "I believe that Bigfoot exists". "That's absurd. Where is your proof? "The truth needs no proof, I am just here to declare it. Where is your proof that that he doesn't exist ? No one on earth can prove that he doesn't exist ..." ---------------------------------------- Ok, I’ll buy this, but also add a line IN THE ANALOGY. “Bigfoot wrote a book that has his telephone number and address in it. Here’s the book. Find them for yourself.” I put “IN THE ANALOGY” in all-caps in case some form bound idiot will try to quote me that I believe in Bigfoot and his/its literacy. I have enough of a burden being a messenger.

def59, Start a thread... or three.

Tom Strange, I’ve calmed down. My rage was not MERELY against you but against the pattern you were the latest participant in, and that’s not paying attention to the heart or the details of my posts, but the outward form only, and for purposes that thwart understanding, even in other readers, in what I post. I wanted to let you, but even more to let others know that I’m hip to this diversion and that it won’t stop me. *** You wrote: “Why are you ....ed?” I WAS ....ed because I see my family drowning and the life guards are dragging people farther out to sea. *** You wrote: “It's like Oak said above, I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't reading something into your posts that wasn't really there.” What Oak said struck me deep because I was forgetting that there are always VERY new people to come late into this discussion. I don’t think you are one of them, though. If you really wanted to know what I said, why didn’t you see it where I answered much the same question before, and in amazement that people hadn’t seen the obvious connection that IFFF the texts we have been given are God-breathed, then SURELY Jesus Christ would be into them bigtime. That you, and the questioners/mockers before you with that same question, didn’t see this obvious connection and had to question mo on it, told me that you weren’t thinking through, even for the slightest duration, my position. Part of an intelligent discussion is being able to TEMPORARILY put yourself into the shoes of your opponent and thinking like he thinks, assuming what he assumes, and cranking through the logic FROM HIS point of view. This is the process I dragged you through in my last post to you last night. Do you see now? Do you see now how it’s totally obvious that IF my assumption of PFAL being of God is set in cement, then it’s a very small step to see that Jesus Christ will be totally involved with it too? Maybe you couldn’t buy that I was serious about PFAL being God-breathed in the first place, but that too implies that you weren’t paying any attention to all my posting for a year. I just don’t have time for gadflies who only want to poke fun or derision at the outward form of my posts. This ability to TEMPORARILY put yourself into the shoes of your opponent and think like he thinks is crucial to any deep discussion, but it does require work. It also requires fearlessness. I’ve seen MANY trinitarians, the full-on kind, who would sit down with me and our Bibles open and the more verses I put on the table for thought, the more they withdrew. They were afraid to consider, even for a moment, even for the rhetoric richness, even for a second they were afraid to think things through from my point of view. I OFTEN have seen this same face of fear come on grads when I suggest that God really did re-issue His Word in PFAL, because like trinitarians, there are certain cherished traditions grads embrace, and challenging them is terrifying. I can show them that we were taught in RHST’s “Introduction to the Appendixes,” and in Jeramiah 36, and in the grand re-issue from the stars to stone and parchment, that God can and has done this before, but when fear grips a man, rational thought is impossible. So, Tom, I figured you were tough enough to serve temporarily as an example for how others CAN be treated it they too try to interrupt me with poorly thought through distractions. I did the same thing with E.W. Bullinger not long ago when he privately e-mailed me last year with an elaborate scheme to tug me off my position, and when it didn’t work he recently splashed it in public as if I had done something bad to him. When I rubbed his shiney little nose into his own $hit he protested that it would send a chilling effect to others, and he was right! That’s what I wanted to do, make him an example, that if you mess with me there MAY be consequences. I do have mercy and grace also, because I see My Daddy and my big Brother operate that was as well. [This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 14:09.]

Steve, It's "innie" hits that I'm interested in, especially higher up innies like the WAYGB. However, like I said many times, I'm thankful for ANY place to post, and will cheerfully (sigh -->) go wherever seems best for those who have to do the chores of administering this board, as cheerfully as possible that is. :)--> Besides I could use a rest, especially after last night. I voted "keep it here"

Oaky, The water helped. And the rug will dry out. Thanks for the advice. :)-->

Oaky, Maybe I should add you to that list with Abigail and Ginger. I am ....ed.

Tom Strange, You wrote: “Well Mikey, you could take a poll to see if anyone else thinks I dodged your questions.” I operate by principle not polls. If majority opinion meant anything to me I’d be long gone. *** You wrote: “I tell you "it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all."” That answer is a tautology. It’s not an answer just a statement of the obvious. I already knew you “just want to know if that's what I believe” other wise you wouldn’t have asked it. If I take your “just want” and “That’s all” as the total answer then it looks like idle curiosity. But if it’s idle curiosity, then why ask it so often? Something more than idle curiosity looks like it’s driving your desire. What is that something else is another way to phrase my original question that you so far have dodged. Unless you’re just really into idle curiosity. But if that’s the case, why should I bother with such an idle thinker? *** To my question of "what are you going to do with it?" you answer: "No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material...” This is not an answer of why, but why not. Still no answer of why. This does slightly eliminate the range of possible “whys” but not much. You went on with your answer: “where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know...” Another “almost answer” but then you cast doubt on it with “I don’t know...” You went on with “...but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer..." This is just a repetition of the above idle question semi-answer. Tom welcome to the dodgers club. Now all you got to do is get righteous about it. *** Now, do you think you can answer my simple, straightforward question without resorting to name calling and accusations? Or will you simply "address" it again? Not so much fun getting called names and accused is it? *** You wrote: “What are you afraid of? If it's what you believe, it's what you believe. Are you a man of your convictions?” If I posted it before, was I afraid then? Was I afraid to challenge you to search out my posting of it? *** Here is the next question I want you to answer. Try not to dodge. If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would you be interested in it? Here’s a variation on the same question: If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ want you to interested in it? Another: If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ want to help you really, truly, spiritually understand it? Another: If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ take action to help you understand it? Another: If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would that action Jesus Christ takes to help you understand it be in the form of possessing your mind and re-wiring it to understand? Do you see where I am going with this? I am SO tired of people like you (you are not alone) merely looking at the form of my words and not the content. If you had been thinking through, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, the things I post, then the answer to your question should be totally obvious. The fact that you ask this question reveals much more to me than you simply missing my posts where I say these exact same things. The fact that you ask this question reveals to me than you simply don’t think about what I’m saying any more than what you need for more fodder for your confusion machine. Your question proves to me that you haven’t heard a single thing I’ve said about how I REALLY believe that PFAL was given by revelation. I have another question: If you said something about 2000 times and had proof that the most important and often repeated thing was NOT pondered in any significant way by someone, would you want to pay much attention to a dumb question with an obvious answer from such a someone? Let me say this: That the most important and often repeated thing I’ve said some 2000 times here is that PFAL was given by revelation to Dr, not always in the divine dictation way, but in a SOMETIMES roundabout way like through Kenyon and so on, but also in a very direct way of general guidance through senses research. Now having that, that I do definitely and totally believe PFAL is God-breathed, and given the exercises above, do you still have to ask the question of me? After all this, do you still want me to answer you ? Is there ANY doubt in your mind that the answer is YES I believe that?

shazdancer, You wrote: “Before I comment, let me say that I have not a shred of "residual trinitarianism," as you call it. I left the organized church when I was 10 years old, having never received any schooling in the Trinity. I had no big problem accepting Jesus Christ as not being God, although I have entertained discussions over the years as to the veracity of my view.” You were in an organized church for YEARS, and a corrupt one at that, the First Church of TVT. There was lots of residual trinitarianism in TWI, where God-like properties are thought to be present in Jesus Christ. The idea of Jesus’ omniscience was rampant in the TVT. The idea of Jesus being excepted or having a waiver from the need to be born again was there too, as well as in some posts on this page. Plus you grew up in Western civilization, where it is saturated with full-on trinitarianism, as well as the more subtle traces like I just mentioned. I don’t buy your immunity to residual trinitarianism at all, but I’d love to be proved wrong. You simple claim doesn’t do it for me. *** You wrote: “However, your view that Christ will be teaching us out of the PFAL book during he Appearing Administration has no basis in scripture OR in PFAL.” How long did you look for it in the scriptures and in PFAL? A few seconds? A minute? All day? Try spending 6 years, and I’ll respect your opinion here a little more. *** You wrote: “VPW's quote about a "series of events" during that time are exactly the ones he then lists: the appearing for his saints, the events of Revelation, and the appearing with his saints. THAT is a series of events. Anything else is just conjecture.” Again, with less than a day’s thought on what I said, I’d say it’s you who are in conjecture. I know that a process must take place where we receive the perfectly renewed mind. I know Dr taught than minds change slowly. I know God does not posses minds or zap them. He tried to teach the mystery to Peter, but Peter wasn’t big enough then to receive it. Tradition meant too much to him, and even a thrice repeated vision plus an angelic coincidence only had a partial and temporary effect on him. Let’s look at that page 227 in GMWD again. The record begins with: “The great hope of the Christian Church is the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him. There are aspects of Christ’s return which we find most clearly explained by God’s rightly-divided Word. In order to understand the coming of Christ, we must also understand “the mechanics” of his coming. Jesus’ first coming began with his conception and birth and ended with his ascension, over thirty years later. There were many significant phases and events during this time.” So there are MANY “significant phases and events” in the mechanics of Christ’s first coming, and this will help us understand his second coming, as the next sentence will say with the use of the word “similar.” The record continues: “In this, the second coming is similar: it will also cover a period of time and encompass several significant phases and events.” So SEVERAL “significant phases and events” are associated with his second coming. Note also that a “period of time” is mentioned. I know you, shaz, are not under this misimpression, but many think that the whole shooting match is a “moment in time.” This should dispel that notion. The record continues: “There are four basic events included in the times of the end, when Christ returns. This is their order: (1) Christ’s coming for the Church, the Body of Christ, to gather them together and meet them in the air; (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ’s coming with the Church; (3) the first and second resurrections; and finally, (4) the very end, the final point [telos], when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.” In event (4) is the destruction of death, as I Corinthians 15 talks about, as well as the “moment in time.” HERE it’s quick and fast, the way we receive our new body. But what happened to the PHASES? We just saw “significant phases and events” repeated twice above, but now “phases” are missing. These 4 items are events only. The phases are conspicuously missing. They are in addition to the events, simply not mentioned here, but clearly implied. AND we have another word to consider. These aren’t just “events” but “BASIC events” that are listed. So there are be some not-so-basic events not mentioned, but implied. See what happens when you use conjecture to guide your thinking? You didn’t read it carefully. There are lots of things that need to happen, and receiving the perfectly renewed mind is one, and that’s a slow deal. Jesus Christ is going to have to teach us. Remember how Dr used to say at the Rock of Ages that it was a dress rehearsal for the Gathering Together? Dr also likened the twig fellowship to the Gathering Together. What happens in a twig and at the Rock? TEACHING. Does that teaching take time? Does everyone learn it all at once in sync? Does everyone learn at a pace related to their desire? Yes, No, Yes. What's the difference between a dress rehearsal and the real thing? In the theatre a dress rehearsal is one where it's ALMOST the same as the real show, all the props and costumes are in place, and there are no interruptions or re-takes. In theatre the only difference is in one single area: the audience is not the normal paying customers, but friends, relatives and reviewers. The one essential difference between the dress rehearsal of our Gathering, the Rock of Ages, and the real thing is not the supposed astronautics, but the teacher. In the dress rehearsal we got VPW, in the real thing we get the Lord Jesus Christ. *** You wrote: “I don't know what he knows or doesn't know -- I would think that if he doesn't know something, he asks the guy on his left, GOD!” If the seating scene were a 5-senses situation, yes, but it’s not. We are told that it’s spiritual. If we try to reason it out by the senses we can miss it. From the revelation we have, Jesus Christ is one of the flock. He’s one of us, not an exceptional dude like John the Baptist who had spirit at birth. Jesus could have just as easily, according to your reasoning, asked God for spirit long before he was thirty years old, but he didn’t and God didn’t tell him to. Jesus had to struggle through all that we struggle through. He had to read the scriptures when he was young, just like us. He has to be born again just like us, still, even after Pentecost. He still has to learn about the next administration just like us, from the written Word first, and then he can get specifics by revelation when and if necessary. Remeber, he’s still a man, just like us. *** You wrote: “I also recall that the Bible AND PFAL both taught us that the new birth was a spiritual birth...” The whole point of Dr’s last teaching was to get us who knew a lot to come back to PFAL and master the texts, not simply “recall” them. As I said well above, earlier today, our whole point of view on the first birth and the second birth is at a kindergarten level unless we closely scrutinize the texts. Dr made a big deal out of viewpoints: God’s versus man’s, the spiritual viewpoint versus the natural. I made a bid deal out of it too with two big threads “The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW” and it’s sequel “The Spiritually Divine over the Naturally Factual.” I posted that our kindergarten natural point of view doesn’t jive with God’s view on what is the spiritual new birth and what is the natural birth. In your “recall” you are working the natural point of view where receiving pneuma hagion is the ultimate end all. But from God’s point of view this is only the first birth. The second is when we get Christ formed in our soul. This is very new stuff to you. You’ve only heard it for one day. I spent 6 years going over these things. Please think about it a long while with your books open. There is something very big here. This Christ Formed material is very obscure, even though Dr taught it at least three times. Hardly any grads have ever pondered it. *** You wrote: “Frankly, Mike, your lengthy and superfluous posts have led me to believe that YOU do not have a coherent story to tell. Your quote above sounds like YOU. Then you add in that both VPW and Jesus Chris taught you. So PFAL is only a jumping off point for what you want to tell people? You want to impart the personal revelations that Christ gave you?” No. I want people to have personal revelations of Jesus Christ themselves. There’s no way to recognize Jesus Christ physically. We must rise to his level and see him spiritually. The KJV won’t do that. Researching the critical Greeks wont do that. God provided a way for us to rise and see Christ and that’s by mastering His written Word as He gave it in PFAL. *** I had mentioned that splinter groups leaders were like politicians and stingy with conversation with me, to which you wrote: “Methinks they cut you short, because they didn't want to go around and around with you on the very doctrines you have been trying to espouse on GSpot.” You got your timing wrong. The splinter stingies were before 1998 when I came into a new set of things to learn. I was talking about asking leaders what was going on in 1987 and ’88 and ’89 and ’90. I tried to ask details concerning THEIR message and they shined me on. With one leader I counted either 6 or 10 (I forget) completel different dodging techniques before I got into an outright confrontation with him on his stinginess. These were not righteous dodges; he was hiding his ignorance and sloppiness and had great disdain for me, a lowly non-Corps. In those days their modus operundi was “Follow us and don’t ask questions.” I’m talking TWI, CES, and GRR. *** You wrote: “Okay, I'll bite. How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??” No, it’s obey the man of God and master the PFAL books so he can be seen. *** You wrote: “..the sort of thing you say you hate in others, you do yourself.” I hate to see anger and jeering for no reason other than something new is being said. I don’t enter other people’s threads and jeer at them or get angry at what they are doing that thread. I almost did this on the Brady thread, but not quite. That was an exception. When others poke at me I can poke back. Jesus Christ had anger when he saw others doing wrong or trying to obstruct his mission. I reserve the right to get in someone’s face twice the strength they come at me with. I don’t always exercise that right, but be warned, not just you shaz but everyone, I don’t have to take anyone’s $hit. I’m know where the line is, and once in a while I may slip up and cross it. When I do, I usually recognize it and retreat. I will fight back when people try to obstruct me. Nor will I submit to you, shaz, as my judge in handling matters with others. If you want to be a judge, why are you leaving undone all the injustices perpetrated on me. A small few other posters here, NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH MY POSTS, have spoken up against the outlandish treatment afforded me. You, shaz, have disqualified yourself from even being a counselor of mine as to my line crossings by your silence on the many more line crossings of others against me. If Ginger Tea or Abigail say something to me on this subject I listen, but you shaz, might as well save your cyber ink for something I will listen to. *** You wrote: "For me, Mike, I care little about what the next administration is going to be like. It is my hope that there will be one, on the order of that predicted in the Bible. Meantime..." Meanwhile? It’s HERE NOW! We are at the end of time. This life is over. The reason God’s 1942 promise gave rise to the PFAL writings was to give rise to US. Only a careful mastery of the texts will reveal this. Obey and see. *** "Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease...but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...then I shall know even as also I am known...." Amen to love. Why do you think I endure the crap here? I care about my family. [This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 2:05.]

Egads! I was working on a response to shaz and now all these additional posts! Don't you people ever sleep? I could understand it if you were all on the West Coast. Ok, I'll post to shaz and they start again on you others.

Goey, Like Tom you are revealing your hand more, so I can know whether or not spending much time on you is a worthwhile thing to do. You wrote: “Partial knowledge of your "position" is quite enough to reject it.” You didn’t have to confirm that, but thanks for making it easier for me. I could easily tell you were only skimming my posts the way you crying about me not responding to you, even though I had, it was just buried in a post mass addressed to several people. It seems your desire to trip me up might be a little stronger that Tom’s, because you probably did search for posts that said “Goey,” at the top before you moaned to me that I had ignored you. *** You wrote: “It's kinda like trying to get a patent on a perpetual motion device. The US Patent Office will not consider a patent on any device that claims perpetual motion. Just the claim of perpetual motion is sufficient to reject the patent application, regardless of any other redeeming features of the device. Once they see "perpetual motion" or "free energy" in the application, it is rejected. They do not even look a the rest of the claims or the specifics. There is no need to.” I disagree that it’s “kinda like” that really. It just looks like that to your simpleton sight. Physics is a very exact science because it only deals with very simple concise ideas. In doing so, the concept of energy was very well understood over 100 years ago. The idea of a perpetual motion machine is very simple to prove false from the beginning. NOT SO with the very complex arena of human affairs on earth and the two Gods that are warring over it. God’s truth is simple, but the error that has saturated His creation is very complex. Your hunch that I’m wrong about God re-issuing His Word to us in PFAL has nothing even closely resembling a proof behind it. That He can’t or didn’t really do it is no where near proved anywhere on earth. The proof of the impossibility of perpetual motion is simple and totally accomplished. The proof that God didn’t reissue His Word in PFAL totally non-existent. You are reasoning by analogy, sir!

Tom, You didn’t answer that question very well at all. I ask WHY and you say BECAUSE. That’s lame. You have your reasons, but now it’s YOU that’s dodging. Is this a righteous dodge, the kind Jesus was an expert at and that the Bible tells us we should do, or are you just hiding your real motive? Or is it just an idle curiosity? What about my question of what are you going to do with after you’ve got it? You didn’t even attempt to answer that one. You see, when this issue of dodging dumb questions arose long ago here I pointed out among other things, that EVERYONE dodges questions; it’s just a matter of degree and justification. How much and how well and how quickly a questions are dodged is the degree part. Justification relates to is the answer anyone’s business? or will the answer be used for the wrong purposes, or whether answering the question will help or hinder learning. A good teacher will dodge a question if he knows a student will learn more by seeking the answer on his own or by thinking it through from what he already knows. So, Tom, how does it feel to be a dodger like me? You just dodged a few of my questions. I have another question.

Tom Strange, I’m back from work, and I will address your question. But first I have a few little questions for you. My first question to you is WHY? Why are you asking that question? What are you going to do with the answer? Don't try to bs me that you want to learn, because if that was your intent, you’d go back and simply search my posts, OR you would have been a little sharper in reading them as I wrote them and you’d already have the answser. The fact that you didn’t do that tells me you question falls into a category of idle curiosity, OR a mild desire to trip me up or for new material to razz me on. I say “mild” desire because someone like WordWolf has a raging desire to shut me up, and he proves it by reading a little closer. So, Tom, part of my reason for this righteous dodge is to prove you. I’m putting you through some paces, and I’m learning a little about you as you reveal more of your hand. I have other reasons too. So, WHY do you ask, Tom?

Tom, I’m making you the poster boy of “Blind Reading” because I have already answered that very explicitly. Careful readers of my posts will come across your badgering and say to themselves, “That Tom Strange is pretty stupid. He is so obsessed with contradicting Mike, he can’t even read what’s right in front of him!” If you want to tag along my threads and try to do nothing but cause confusion, then the price you will pay is my not regarding your requests for another iteration of my clearly posted position. You are lazy, and I will refer you back to my already posted position. Just start reading for a while instead of shooting off your ignorant mouth through your keyboard. I’m not sure which thread it’s on, but this thread has only had a few pages added on in recent weeks. I’d start reading the “Masters” thread. If anything it will give you more substantive information with which to pull your pranky posts. Maybe if you actually READ it you’ll actually believe it!!!

oldiesman, Hey! This is GREAT! At least YOU are doing some reading of my posts to be able to ask a question like that! I must get to work, however, so just ponder the two things I gave you, and find for me all the verses you base your beliefs in foreknowledge and free will on. I have an already written post for Tom, so after that one I’m gone. Feel free to e-mail me and I will be more free to answer many more things than I can here.

Goey, You didn't see my response to you several days ago, because you aren't reading all that I post. You sample it only, and then shoot from the hip of only having partial knowledge of my position. I just recently read your posts on RG's original thread "exposing" me even before I posted a single time. Your position hasn';t changed. You made up your mind long before I came here. You've NEVER closely read what I post.

I posted what I posted. I can't help it if you are a blind reader.

Tom, As to your simple straightforward question, you are so tied up in knots contradicting me you can’t see my answer as I posted it thus far. What makes you think you’ll see it in another post?

Tom, YOU"RE missing my entire message in your frantic effort to nullify my posting here. I'm not interested in your guessing. Where did you read in the Bible that the resurrection was when Jesus got spiritual seed, pneuma hagion born within? How long have you maintained this doctrine of yours. Did you just make it up? Did you read it in a book that has no error? It this book your unbreakable Standard that you’re willing to place on my Table of Challenge? I think you’re winging it again. I’m only interested in doing what Dr told us to do in his final instructions. That teaching was lost to prevent us from coming back to PFAL and learning the next steps. You aren’t going to get me to follow you and you ad hoc religion.

oldiesman, Sorry, but your post at the top of this page slipped by me until just now. I must go to work for now, but you can start INDIRECTLY pondering CSBP by asking yourself this question: Is free will fully explained in the Bible? I mean the kind of free will we know of today, as opposed to robotic conditioned responses. Modern science has us all thinking that we are machines, and that every word or action we act out, and ever every thought, is a mechanically determined from the prior set of nerve synapse configurations in our brain. So, by my question I mean this: how do we see from the Bible that we are NOT automatons? In philosophy this topic is called “free will vs. determinism.” Think about this question for a while. I want to see chapters and verses. *** Here’s another clue to understanding CSBP. It’s very indirect, but later they will connect. How do you know from the Bible that God had long ago real, total, 100% foreknowledge of every event including YOU, your personality, and all of your free will decisions? Or, how do you know from the Bible that CES is dead wrong in how they teach God is stuck in time like us, and that He only has His plans for the future and a lot of power to make them happen. Again, modern science forbids any kind of foreknowledge at all, and only guessing or prediction of the future is possible. The Principle of Uncertainty in Physics, and a more obscure mathematical principle like it (see Penrose’s “The Emeror’s New Mind”), both forbid absolute foreknowledge. So how do you prove from the Bible that, again, modern science must be missing something. I want to see chapters and verses.

Hey! Look at that! The phrase "final instructions" near the end of my last post. Who was I talking to yesterday about studying final last words in the Bible? I forgot about this one. I guess this brings us BACK ON TOPIC!!! . . . [This message was edited by Mike on March 08, 2004 at 15:24.]

oldiesman, Well, the conversation seems to be over. Tell me this: Have you actually read CSBP lately? I was stunned when I read the last chapter just a few years ago and again lately. It's quite rich. I could never get that far in the past, and these were my first readings ever! How about you? Read the whole thing lately? For many years, after the meltdown, I refused to give to any splinter groups because, like politicians, they were so stingy with conversation with me. Instead, I’d give waitresses bigger tips, or I’d occasionally give a $20 bill to a homeless person. For years I did alternate ways of giving like that constantly, because I knew the law of giving was real. I realized it wasn’t the BEST way to give, but it was worse giving it to reprobate Corpse Nazis. When I finally learned how to tithe to Jesus Christ himself, I felt much better. You are extremely bothered by CSBP, but you’ve got to get over it. This is what Dr wrote in OMSW wrote from the book of Joshua Chapter 24 about money hang-ups, on pages 177-179: ************************************************************* Verse 13: And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat. I often think of how God has done things like this for us today--He has given us things which we did not deserve, victories which we did not achieve, things that from our point of view we should never have had. God just handed them over to us. After reviewing with the children of Israel what God had done for them, Joshua next reminded them of their responsibility to God. Verse 14: Now therefore fear [reverence, respect, hold in awe] the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. The first command Joshua gave the people was to rid themselves of any other gods. Whenever anyone has a god other than the one true God, that person is in trouble. So long as Israel was faithful and served the one true God, God delivered them. I know that God's Word is talking about literal idols here, and today you may not have an idol or a statue of a god. But you still can have a god other than the one true God. Your god could be a job, a social position, food, or a hobby--just anything that is more important to you than doing God's will. What is first in your life? What is your god? Joshua told the children of Israel to get rid of anything that stood in the way of serving the one true God. If money is still more important to you than God, you have a god--money. That is what is meant by the expression, "Put your wallet on the altar. Dedicate it to God." You have to get to the place that there is only one God in your life, and that God is the true God, Jehovah, and He is the only one you will serve. He is the one to whom you are dedicated. Everything else in life is secondary. Matthew 6 tells us this. Matthew 6:33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. The only way to real success is to have the one true God and to put Him first in your life. The decision to serve the one true God and no other gods was Joshua's concern in his final instructions to the children of Israel before he died. ************************************************************ Oldiesman, is money your god? Is that why you constantly moan about CSBP?

oldiesman, Just like the last time you brought up CSBP mixed in another context, you do it again. Do you have trouble focusing on one thing? Can’t you see there’s a conversation going on here and you’re interrupting? I offered to work with you in private and you ignored it. What’s your problem?