Mike

shazdancer, Thank you. Coming from you, to me, your approval of my post means a lot. I realize this approval does NOT extend to even close to all the other points I make here, so this endorsement rings all the louder to me. I pray we can see more together in the future, the not-too-distant future. :)-->

Mister P-Mosh, You wrote: “Pretty much all religions claim to have an afterlife though, but there are none that have produced actual immortals walking around here that we can prove exist.” There are two points under discussion: (1)the claim, and (2)the truth of the claim. My focus is on the former right now. All religions claim to have an afterlife, and death is the door to that afterlife. Therefore death is a friend. “You won’t REALLY die, you’ll be floating around up there smoking 50 dollar cigars.” All religions, starting with Eve’s, try to befriend death in one way or another. Their claim is that death is not as bad as it looks. You get to go somewhere new, or get to be reincarcerated back here. The Bible is unique in that it declares death an enemy and NOT a door to anything but a dirt nap. Now, the proof of the truth behind that claim comes much later. That takes much more than debate and thought. It takes growing up in a relationship with God, and He presents the proof to us that we cannot present to ourselves. *** You wrote regarding rationalizing death: “Doesn't Christianity as well? Whether you believe you go straight to heaven, or whether you believe in TWI-styled "falling asleep but waking up when Christ comes back" doctrine, Christianity attempts to rationalize death and claims to have a work-around.” It’s one thing to say that God has a “work-around” but it’s another thing to say that He invented it. Actually, I’d use stronger language and say that God and Jesus Christ have utterly destroyed the inventor of death along with his invention, as Hebrews 2:14 declares. This is a bold stand and a unique claim. Man-made religions cast God, the Creator of life, into the role of death’s inventor. They portray death as an integral part of the cosmic machinery, and something man needs to learn to like. Remember the context of this thread is Oakspear’s question: what makes Christianity unique? The answer is Christianity’s stand against the enemy death, claiming it to be contrary to God’s will. The proof of the claim is a totally different subject. *** I had written: “...without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence.” Then you responded with: “Why not? If he made us, then we are exactly what he wants us to be. Why should self-depreciation be part of a religion like Christianity when it flies in the face of creationism?” God did not make us, that is US us. We were made by our parents, mostly our mothers. God formed, made and created man in the beginning, but then “we” were re-made, not in God’s image, but I the adversary’s. Man lost spirit and has needed a re-connect ever since. We are NOT born “exactly what he [God] wants us to be.” We are born only two thirds of what He wants us to be. The rebellions of Lucifer and Adam do indeed fly “in the face of creationism” because God allows freedom of will, wills other than His own. It’s not a false self-depreciation to recognize that there is are genuine problems like death and sin. It IS a false self-aggrandizement to think that humans don’t really die and have god-like thought patterns. This is, of course, the very first lie recorded in the Bible. *** How do I know He loved me first? How can I prove it? I can’t prove it TO YOU in my own words, but I can allow God to prove it TO ME by focusing my attention on His Word. The same process will work for you if you go through those same motions and focus on the same things (accurately). If you want prior proof from me or anyone else in words you’re not going to get it. All I can give you is the reason why I focused on this accurate Christianity (presented best in PFAL) above others. That reason is the unique claim of Christianity and the unique God who invented it.

George Aar, You wrote: “I know as a Christian I would never entertain the thought that the Bible could be anything but GOD'S WORD ™. For to do so would raise all kinds of questions I just wasn't ready to face. Not terribly difficult questions, ones like Oak and Mosh have already raised, and a few others.” I agree. It is this very thing, this very scary thing, that I am dealing with as I present my Table of Challenge on the Masters thread. In his last Way Magazine writing Dr TWICE challenged us to face these kinds of questions. You wrote(with my bold font): ‘That is where the disconnect comes in. The skeptic has no problem venturing into those forbidden topics, because he has no fear of finding out something he doesn't want to. The believer, OTOH, risks his very identity. So the skeptic can ask all those type of questions he wants, but the believer, IMHO, will forever be playing a game of obfuscating, spinning, and twisting the facts - I think often, unconsciously - in order not to upset his accepted mythology.” Again I agree, except with the “forever” part. Some believers have taken up this challenge, but most run and hide. It is no wonder to me that skeptics like Oakspear and Abigail have been the most able to see some crucial aspects of my Table of Challenge. When I find the time I’ll get back to elucidating this, but that’s another thread.

sky4it, I’m sorry I ran out of time and haven’t been able to read much of your discussion with George. Maybe later. All of the following I was writing while those posts were appearing.

Dart, You wrote: “Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out …” I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals who “cast the same in his teeth.” Hours later Jesus not only rolled in the quicksand, he rolled in the grave with those who couldn’t even struggle any more. I’d like to see John Lynn answer Oakspear’s question. Then I’d like to see him tell us (if VPW should be so approving of his work) how he snubbed (and continues to snub) Dr’s last teaching and his final instructions to master PFAL, both in 1985 and then again in 1998 when I brought it to his attention. I’d like to see him answer why he snubbed (and continues to snub) Dr’s 1979 instruction to all Advanced Class grads to master RHST which I’ve posted on numerous occasions here. I’d like to ask him how many other instructions he ignored from Dr back in the good old days when he was supposed to be an assistant of Dr’s in Dr’s ministry to us. Did he use Dr’s extreme popularity among many grads back then to develop his own following, just as he appealed to the very few mild admirer’s of vpw left here on this board? I don’t think he (JAL) nor any of the other derelict top leadership have ever developed the spiritual balls to really face a single adversary who was amply equipped with word skills, let alone a whole community of them like here. Most top leadership left the debate-rich witnessing field to us lower peons in the early 70’s, and either lost or never developed the ability to sustain a friendly debate. For decades all their disagreements with grad underlings ended very early with psychological word-trickery or body language like grimacing, growling, or clenched fists. Leader types like him are too afraid to publicly debate lest this great weakness of theirs be exposed, leaving them with potentially less gainful employment. I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling (via his ground rules) through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition. No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too.

Hi bluesunday! Amen to you too! Hi sky4it! Amen to you too! I'm pleased to meet both of you. I think this is the first time we've chatted. Hi Oakspear! I'm glad you ask good questions like this! When I first encountered accurate Christianity it was obvious to me that there is a difference between making a claim, and that claim being true. However, at that time, I was also aware that Biblical Christianity’s claim was unique: that God was against death, didn’t invent it, told man how to avoid it, and then made provisions to undo it after man brought it on. The uniqueness of this claim gave me reason to pay extra attention to Christianity over the various systems and religions I was considering, and to WANT to believe that it was true. I put in the effort to look deeper, and the more I saw in God’s Word, the more I believed. As far as I know, no other “religion” even TRIES to make that claim. They fall down and not only accept death, they even incorporate death into their cosmic schemes. When I saw that at hearing of his friend Lazarus’ death Jesus wept, I said to myself THAT’S the kind of man I want to follow. Jesus did NOT accept the standard religious BS notion that Lazarus “was in a better place.” Quite the contrary, he protested it and went and raised him up.

I first believed because Christianity was shown to be the only Way to proclaim death an enemy, and an enemy which God has totally defeated by raising Christ from the dead. All man-made religions rationalize death and attempt to make friends with it. Then, in addition to that, without God's grace and mercy and power to FREELY give us eternal life, there'd be NO WAY any of us could be allowed into God's presence. I loved Him because He loved me first. It's the goodness and gentleness of THIS God that persuades a man to change his mind and accept Christianity.

def59, Yes, I’m listening. I don’t read all threads by a long shot, but somehow I stumbled in here. By one coincidence, ten years ago I regularly cleaned the home windows for the previous pastor of that same church, until he moved out of state. By another coincidence, I am aware of (but only skimmed) a book that was very popular several years ago called “How the Irish Saved Civilization.”

Hey Oakspear! Wheree did you go? Did you get your answers?

CoolWaters, In addition, it seems that Jesus often displayed feminine characteristics when they were needed. Look at his pain endurance! When brute strength and toughness were needed he had that too. I don’t know this one for sure, but maybe you can find it. I was told long ago that there is a verse somewhere that describes God as feeding “His” people with a breast, or something to that effect. I don’t know if the word “breast” is used or “suckling” or what, but someone told me that long ago.

CoolWaters, Placing all the distortions of the adversary aside... PRAISE GOD FOR INVENTING WOMEN!!! The world would be totally colorless without you all.

Hi Cool Waters, I’m grateful you accepted my editing. Looking back on it, I TOO slightly misread your intended meaning in your previous post, thinking there were some “fighting words” were there now appear to be none. Plus, I thought I could get away with rough wording because I knew that you knew (from our phone conversations) that I respect your heart. But I forgot that THAT can be easily forgotten in the multitude of the days and months of business, and especially in the heat of the whole board here. PLUS, like your negative situation dealing with those people you just mentioned, I too was dealing with some local hassles that I unnecessarily brought into my post to you. WOW! If only we ALL here were able to get these kinds of things straight from the get-go! Or at least untangle them quickly like you and I seem to have just done, then we’d be back in that “total trust” atmosphere we sampled at times, like at earlier Rock of Ages festivals. It’s coming, though, I know, because HE’s here and HE will prevail. *** That was interesting, what you said about male and female. I was blessed to grow up in a very large (3 boys 3 girls) and near totally functional family (I was the exception), and my Dad is a very decent representative of Our Father in heaven. It bewildered me, back in the 70’s, when I first stumbled upon a few people here and there who couldn’t relate to the idea of a loving father, because of their abusive upbringing. I’ve struggled over the years for ways to help in these kinds of cases, so you gave me a bit of food for thought. I know that the TOTAL ORIGINAL ideas of female and woman are VERY GOOD and come directly from THE Holy Spirit, Almighty God.

Sure CW. Sorry. No insult was intended. We all have had scrambled ideas on these topics; me included. I removed the first sentence from my post altogether, and capitalized the word “think” in the second. I hope they sit better with you. If not let me know.

Peace. :)-->

Yeah, Llpof, masking your intentions will help you fool more peop…. Hey! Wait a minute! THUD THUD THUD Is this microphone ON? Rafael, you TRICKED me! That’s no fair! This post shouldn’t count! I’m going to protest to the management. There should be a no trickery clause in the rules… …er uh, but maybe a loophole for masking? … Oh Rafael, you big doodyhead. You tricked me again!

Garth, It's so nice to see your charitable caring for Llpof's well being. :)-->:P-->

Llpof, I brought this back up to the top because I’d like to get in touch with you. And if johniam’s post accurately reflects your situation, I’d like very much to talk with whomever you are working with. Please e-mail me, and/or include you phone number so I can call you. I am in great agreement with much of what you believe, but somewhat disagree with your tactical approach. We should compare notes sometime. You can find my e-mail address by clicking on my name and then selecting “View Mike’s Public Profile.” P.S. – I was born in St. Louis

Sirguessalot, If I have to choose between your take on these things and that of the Biblical writers along with Dr, I’ll be choosing the latter. Do you at least agree that you are taking an anti-Biblical stance on some of these issues? All through the OT it was people who received spirit who had a special connection with God. At one time during Moses’ ministry spirit was given to 70 people and it was considered a VERY big deal. David prayed he would not lose his connection after he sinned. Jesus talked about how he was working to make holy spirit much more widely available. *** Just the opposite of an inherent, innate “Christ-nature” as you portray the population as having, God’s Word says that it’s a death-nature that is impressed on all via Adam’s rebellion. I agree with you (I think) that a natural man’s mind, which is enmity with God, negates the effectiveness of spirit unless that mind hungers for big changes and works in that direction to effect them with the correct materials, i.e., God’s pure Word. Even with a lot of work and the correct materials, it still takes God’s grace and power to effect the miraculous change in that natural mind to come up with Christ formed within.

sirtodd, Maybe it's just me. :(--> Being raised as a science nerd, I am new even to prose of your complexity. I'll try harder. :)-->

HONEST! This is not sour grapes on my part, BUT, in my limited technical opinion, what messes up the search engine is the moving of threads from their original location. Before the many moving of threads occured (not just mine) the search engine worked fine. If the new software does not include periodic REindexing capabilities, then the search engine may deteriorate again when threads are moved. *** Suggestion: If reindexing is NOT available, a thread could be "moved" by locking up the original "offending" ;)--> thread, allowing it to slide down the chart, and re-starting a copy of it in the desired location. A simple notice after the last post in the original could have a link to the new location.

Oakspear, Now let’s get to the “Saved from what?” aspect, using the paramedic perspective where saved would mean “rescued.” Chapter 7 of BTMS is entitled “God Rescued Us” and in there we once read the answer to “From what?” but like many things, it seems to have been forgotten. Here’s what Dr wrote (with my bold fonts) on pages 55 and 56: “According to Ephesians 2:1 all people are born in this world ‘... dead in trespasses and sins’ and (verse 12) ‘... having no hope, and without God ....’ Being in such a dire state, we definitely needed rescuing. “Colossians 1:13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of [by] his dear Son. “The word ‘delivered’ is more emphatically translated ‘rescued.’ God in Christ ‘rescued us.’ Notice that this verb is in the past tense. Therefore, God no longer needs to rescue us; He has already done so. The word ‘from’ is the Greek word ek meaning ‘out of’ or ‘out from the center’ (as of a circle). What did He rescue us out of or out from among? ‘The power of darkness.’”

Cool Waters, I think you misread my post above. You wrote: “Your post seems to say that being saved is a partial thing...that only spirit is "saved". __I dunno, dude...it's like the god that can only "save" spirit is a partial god...” I never said anything about God not being able to save in the body and soul categories. There is definite salvation from God in both of those categories as well. You can look at I Thessalonians 5:23 for just one such proclamation of this total salvation from God. Here is some of what I DID say above on this thread: “So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the ‘materials’ to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free.” I THINK what you were trying to say is that you object to the fact that WORKS are involved with body and soul salvation. God CAN and DOES save us in those categories, but He also requires work on our part. The spirit category involves no works on our part because we could not accomplish spiritual works, having no spirit yet, and were helpless in that that category. I’m sure that you, as a loving parent, did everything for your helpless newborn baby, and required no works on his part to earn food, clothing and shelter. But as he grew up and became more able, it was the loving thing on your part to REQUIRE works of some sort from him for his own sake. A loving parent wants to see their children grow up and work things out for themselves to the degree that they are capable. Otherwise their capacity to do things will never increase. Expecting everything for free is not healthy. I’m sure you see this as a parent. The same holds for you in the body and soul categories in your relationship with God. You do your part and you can expect God’s grace to cover what you can’t. My God is a complete deliverer, and He saves us in all three categories. Plus, He is extra gracious in the spirit category and requires no works on our part.

Sirguessalot, I don’t mean to be ignoring you, it’s just that I can’t understand you. I’ve always had a mental block for poetry. I attend a weekly poetry reading, where the author reads his piece out loud, and I am learning to somewhat appreciate fancy linguistic gymnastics that way. But I still am tone deaf to reading it on paper or screen. If you were to put a linear synopsis at the beginning or end or your discourses I might be able to translate the pretty parts.

Hi CW, Long time, no talk. It’s good to see you again. :)--> I learned what I posted from PFAL and from other teachings, but it took a long time putting it together like I just did. I didn’t have it in this present form until a few years ago. Yes, works were always important too, but the TVT emphasized it to the skies as well as clouding the grace part.

Oakspear, There are some subtle nuances in the words “saved” and “salvation” that often slip by people. Not only are the exact Biblical usages of these words lost in modern paramedic nomenclature, but the idea of salvation with or without works is pretty scrambled in there too. In religious circles “salvation” is an extreme buzz word, which most pretend to understand, but few ever ask about it like you did. Unscrambling this topic starts with a more complete definition of "salvation" as it pertains to the three categories of body, soul, and spirit. Salvation is a context sensitive word, and it depends which category is under discussion: body, soul, or spirit. ******* SPIRIT Salvation means to be made whole. To a being of body and soul only, receiving spirit is to be made WHOLE. This type of salvation wholeness is free, no works required. In Ephesians it says we were saved by grace UNTO good works. We got the free holy spirit seed by grace so that we COULD do good works and build that mind of Christ within. That building in our own minds is works, and it is very hard work. It's by God's grace that we CAN and MAY do such works. ******* SOUL Then, later on, that same person learns that they still have the old natural, unrenewed mind, so salvation at that time would mean (to them) to get whole thoughts in their mind. This process takes a lot of work. That is why Paul said in Phil 2:12b “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” One type of salvation is the works-free "Christ in you" in the spirit category, UNTO good works. The other type of salvation is working on one's own mind, a new mind, renewing it by changing the food it’s sent (TNDC p.34) to the point of having “Christ formed within” this soul/mind category, eventually leading us to the third category at the last trumpet: the new body. Salvation in our mind involves works on our part, because God never possesses the mind. Changing our mind is our job. We have change the food we feed our minds to renew them, and then sort out truth from error to the best of our ability, and we have to receive, retain, and release that truth, acting on it in love. This is what Paul meant by "work out your own salvation." It's by the grace of God that we have been given the materials and the teaching to do these works. ******* BODY Physical healing is salvation in the body category, that can also involve some works on our part. Plus, God has His part in both the design of the self-healing human physiology, and energizing miraculous healings, both of which are gifts of grace. We can assist this type of salvation process with our works involving believing, diet, sleep, and exercise, as well as Third Aid medical assistance. ******* So, salvation in the body and soul categories involve works on our part, plus God's grace. Salvation in the spirit category is totally by grace (AND A LOT OF MERCY), and no works because a person without spirit does not yet have the "materials" to work with. It's free because we can't pay that kind of price and we NEED it to be free