Mike

Raf, You may be excused. :)-->

Raf, Don't you remember Jesus saying that the THOUGHT of adultery is just as bad as the act? Being chaste in outward actions towards women happens to many men against their wills because it’s just not offered or available for them to take it. How many men could turn down hundreds of daily opportunities for action? I bothered many people last year by saying that if we had the troops, all of us would have invaded Poland sooner or later. I still stand by that. If we had the power, many of what we now see as our “little” sins would inflict much more damage with that power behind them. The Bible says that we ALL have hearts that are desperately evil above all things. It’s fortunate for us all that only a very few do get the kind of power that displays this desperate wickedness. The great evil that lurks in the hearts of all is usually well hidden.

Amen Oldiesman! VPW had hundreds and hundreds of people observing many parts of his “private” life at close range for many years. After that many of these people turned on him with a mob’s vengeance, and for years now have been lynching his life in public. The massive good he did is forgotten and every big and little sin is discussed ad infinitum. I wonder how the accusers of VPW would fare had they opened up THEIR lives for observation by hundreds of future enemies. How many plagiarisms would be found in such a scrutiny? How many selfish sexual steps would be noted? How many power trips over others would be documented?

waterbuffalo, I wouldn’t advocate using people. My position is that most triniarians are not so evil that we can’t be friendly. I no longer feel a need to glean truths from them, but I know that VPW did, and I receive from him what he got from trinitarians. Probably most (if not all) of his teachers believed that Jesus was God.

WordWolf, You wrote at the top of this page: “…no one on this board ever got 1/2 the carte blanche to teach you as vpw. Level the playing field a little, standardize the rules a bit, and we might surprise the heck out of you.” All of my twig leaders and branch leaders DID get “ 1/2 the carte blanche” to teach me. In fact, they had a strong advantage over VPW in age and in proximity. Plus, they didn’t have to undergo the massive unlearning Dr had to do, AND they had all the good stuff laid out for them. None of them came close to helping me as Dr did. If you were a twig leader then you had that level playing field. How well did you teach them? I’ll bet what you offered them wasn’t even close to 1/2 of what they were offered in the books. Come back to PFAL and see with new eyes what is written and it might surprise the heck out of YOU!

JustThinking, You wrote: “…I was with TWI well over 15 years and don't remember being taught to have a relationship with God's son. Ever. I was hammered over the head with the statement that he wasn't God. Speaking one word to Jesus Christ was tantamount to being possessed in TWI-land.” You are accurately describing the TVT. However, I have the tapes and the books where you WERE taught, and often, just the opposite as you describe. Were you around last year when I posted some passages to this effect? I think it was in the “Ubiquitous” thread. *** You wrote: “I also checked with several friends who are ex-TWI and lived in various parts of the country who feel the same way. Scientific poll? Nope. We seem to have been in a different ministry than you. Or maybe you took off by the early 80s and therefore preceded me?” I phased out slowly in the very late 80’s. Your checking this out “with several friends” AGAIN falls into the TVT category. Why didn’t you check out the books or tapes? Why didn’t they? Because we all drifted so far from the originals we never knew there was a difference between what was talked up by non-mastering leaders and what was written. We all developed an attitude of why bother to check the books if all we have to do is ask around? I was in the same TVT ministry you were in. I too saw the same kind of “trinitarian cops” spring up in the ministry as I saw in churches (and posted today on waterbuffalo’s “If Trinitarians are so bad...” thread) except with the opposite take on it. I saw the bludgeoning by leaders that forbade us talking to Jesus. I was in that same ministry as you describe. However, when I came back to the books I found, as you described it, “a different ministry.” There were definitely two ministries, the original and the collection of TVTs that developed. I urge a return to the original.

Tying to fence me in? I have no daughters, but I did grow up with three younger sisters, so I do know what a protective instinct is. I've observed that the protective instinct of parents can sometimes overwhelm their perspective on what is right and what is wrong. In other words, it's possible to be over protective. I am sad for all the hurt that I saw happen in the ministry, but I see that hurt as small when compared to the massive pains religion has inflicted on us all, especially in the area of sex. The phony spirituality attached to “sex by the rules” is massive in our culture. It’s something the Protestant Reformation never got around to fixing. It’s a form of Mary worship. If I had to choose between my sisters (or future daughter) suffering from a few unwanted advances or getting caught up in phony sex-purity religion, I’d choose the former as less damaging. I’ve seen more damage from Puritanism than from licentiousness. Do YOU have daughters? Do you fill them with damaging Mary worship?

I agree, they’re not bad, just mistaken. I have found that most members of a trinitarian church just go along with the program and mouth the words of that doctrine. I spent over a decade in my early ministry years talking to trinitarians. I wanted to be sure we were correct so I sought out trinitarians to hear their side. I went to their churches and spent many hours observing and discussing. Sometimes I did run into the evil types, but most were not. Nearly every church I visited had one or two evil “trinitarian cops” who patrolled about making sure everyone mouthed the right words. Even if I kept mum on my TWI affiliation, they’d sniff me out very quickly and attack, just from the kinds of questions I’d ask.

Uncle Hairy, Among others, the biggest lie you wrote above is “and he turned people AWAY from a relationship with Christ, substituting himself for the absent savior.” This line is complete ignorance and dishonesty on display. The tapes and books and magazine articles that we received from the work God wrought along with VPW testify to your refusal to receive what was offered in the form of a relationship with Christ. This is doubly the case if you were Corps or any kind of leadership. You sucked up the Christless TVT (Twi Verbal Tradition) and spit out the MASSIVE amount of teaching we were given that would have cemented a GREAT relationship with Christ. If you think my charge of lying is off the mark, then I’ll challenge you to a thread debate in the Doctrinal forum (or here if Paw permits). I will post my evidence of what slipped by you or that you forgot. I’ve got the tape transcripts and the book passages all ready. We WERE taught to love God and His Son, and to seek out a strong relationship with Christ! What is it UH? Will you admit that line of yours I quoted is a total lie, or will you confront and refute the evidence? Accusing a man in the midst of a mob lynching is cheap and easy. Let’s see how well you can handle the evidence.

GeorgeStGeorge, I can appreciate your position, and for many years after VPW’s death (and even a few before that) I operated much the same way. However, in recent years I’ve come to a realization of another perspective. Please let me explain. You wrote: “And if using those keys makes me conclude something in opposition to TWI teaching, I go by what the keys teach.” I bold fonted the words “using those keys” because that’s the area of the newly realized perspective I mentioned. I came to realize that the very act of “using those keys” requires an ACCURATE knowledge of those keys... ALL off them. In 1998, when I accepted VPW’s final challenge to master the PFAL books, I quickly saw that my grasp of EXACTLY what those keys were and EXACTLY how to use them was sorely lacking. There were a few I had even forgotten and at least one huge one that had slipped by me altogether, in my first go-around with PFAL. So we can apply those keys with mastery or we can apply them as amateurs. Unfortunately most of us have chosen the latter. I find that as I master the keys we were given, more and more of what I THOUGHT were errors in PFAL evaporate.

UncleHairy, Are you a religious person? I don't need to ask.

It's cheap and easy to label or call names, but it IS the case that Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille taught me about the loving God I never knew and about His wonderful sinless Son Jesus Christ. No one on this board EVER taught me such but him.

Insisting on a sinless human to bring forth God's written Word will forever postpone receiving such truth. All the Biblical writers were sinners, and trying to ferret out who among them sinned less is as hopeless as it frivolous. Religion busies itself with sorting through VISIBLE sins, entirely ignorant of the dark hidden secrets deep inside every (save Jesus Christ's) human heart. If God (who sees all) had insisted on good moral character there’d be no one to bring forth His Word as well as receive it. I say we start all over and ONLY pay close attention to what is written. It is this written part that got the least ammount of our attention while we were in the ministry, and it's this written part that gets the least attention now. It is in this written part that we will find not only closure, but many positive surprises.

Grooby, Keemosaby. :D-->

Jew hating bunch? No way! I grew up in a Jewish area and many in the early 70’s Rye Fellowship were Jewish. It was neat that people from different backgrounds got along together so well. Much later I saw some minor anti-Semitism in a small few number of Corps leaders, but it was far from prevalent.

I think Arthur Keostler (sp?) was of similar origins. Similarly with Gurdjief and Ouspensky.

I guess I only heard of Ayn Rand a few good passages or paraphrases, but now I'm a little glad I put her low on my priority list. I think she was on the mark in a few areas, but it's very distant memory for me too.

Satori, The line I wrote which contained the word "canon" was the one line that you quoted, so I thought your irkulation (or whatever) may have revolved around it. By canon I meant the “official” and complete collection of his teaching record, as opposed to the various incomplete and distorted sets of his teachings that reside in the minds of grads.

satori, If I had said "the bulk of vpw's teachings" would it have irked you less?

Waterbuffalo, All of my exposure to Ayn Rand has been either brief or second-hand, but also positive. I’d love to have the time to read her, but I’d also love to read many more authors. I don’t think I have to read her to know that wayworld was off the mark. You can see many of the flaws of wayworld in George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” quite clearly. The flaws of wayworld are things that bog down many other movements and systems of thought. I’ve even seen a great similarity between what Dr reports in his mid 1950’s booklet “The Delemma of the Foreign Missions in India” and what went wrong in the Way Corps. Maybe you have not been around here long enough to see enough of my thesis to know that I agree that MUCH that was wrong in the ministry, even when Dr was running things prior to 1982. The place where I see great perfection is in the written record we were given, not in the ministry and all of its practices. This written set of doctrines was often at variance with what took place, but it got very little attention when compared to the soundtrack of the film class or to the various verbal traditions that grew up around it. Most awareness of this written record was eventually smothered by the TVTs, and by the mid 80’s, these TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) were the dominant guiding forces in the ministry.

Dartainan3m, I wasn’t attacking anyone’s heart to help and I wasn’t attacking anyone’s sincerity, but simply pointing out the lack of accuracy and lack of ability. Plus, it should also be emphasized that for anyone in JAL’s position to say that Dr would be proud of his work is ludicrous. Not only is it way off in the accuracy department, but even the relevance of such a claim here on this relatively anti-vpw board is but another indication of some extreme incompetence on the part of the claimee. He might as well had said “Oh GreaseSpotters, I come to you in the name of Victor Paul Wierwille so that you might harken unto the sound of my voice!” *** And waterbuffalo, yes I do think Dr would be pleased with my actions; noT that I’d be stupid enough to think that would carry any weight here on his board. The reason I say I believe he’d be pleased is because I have gone to the record Dr left us on tape and in print and endeavored to do those things he instructed us to do. Unlike others who rely on vague, faulty memory and a sloppily constructed mind picture of the canon of vpw’s teachings, I go to the record.

Much obliged, WB. I got to give credit where credit is due. I plagiarized it. It's all from what we were taught.

WordWolf, Like with shaz, your endorsement of one of my earlier posts here was greatly appreciated. Like with shaz I appreciate it all the more due to the intense disagreements that have gone on between us on most everything else. Again, like with shaz, I wouldn’t try to stretch extra mileage out of what you said, to extent it to areas you did not intend. I’m still a little stunned, and don’t want to make this a derailing issue here, but thanks much. :)-->

Steve Lortz, I don't know agout MG, but I'd concur with you on JAL's aloofness toward those who disagree with his stands. However, I would credit JS with making himself available to me by phone. At least three times in the past 5 years he has given me a full hour in his schedule for some intense discussion and debate. We've exchanged a few long e-mails as well.

Dartanian3m, You wrote: “(and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground)” No, we should NOT allow ourselves to enter any battles in which we are not prepared to win. I was just pointing out that JAL is not prepared, willing, or able to meet people on the terms of general public discourse. He must be the only one with the microphone or he can’t perform. He is partially responsible for the development of some TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that hurt many. If he now has seen the TRUE light he should be prepared to mingle with those who are struggling without loosing his footing. For him to wave a welcome from a safe distance to someone stuck and sinking in quicksand, and then portray himself as a rescuer of those who can make it to dry land on their own, is the height of arrogant stupidity. I just hate to see those of meeker stupidity fall for that crap. I'd like to see them all come back to PFAL and smarten up. I know how stupid I was from my drifting away. *** You wrote: “HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????) (HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem) Please allow me to steal a great line from someone who was able to see through the subterfuge you just threw at me: excuse me while I go back to work and finish carving my graven image of VPW. Hey! What the…. E-gads man! It was YOU who penned that very line! How’s come you can’t apply the wisdom you toss out to others to your own vapid objections to me? THAT in my opinion is a BIG problem. Oops, there I go again! :D--> *** You wrote: “ (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE)” The word of VPW is worthless. But when and where he wrote and spoke God’s Word accurately then those words are as much God as God is God. The same holds when you speak God’s Word: you stand with all the authority of God Almighty. Don’t you remember how we were taught this in RHST? When Peter stood before Cornelius’ household he spoke as if he were God Himself. *** You wrote: “(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge)” They face adversaries of their own choosing, but not the ones that afflict many people here on this board. Over 3400 times I have faced these much more difficult adversaries, these very perplexing and hurtful conundrums, that resulted partially from the disobedience of top leaders like JAL. Let’s see, 3400 to 1, you be the judge. *** You wrote: “(DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...)” If people like JAL (who I also see as over-gifted genetically and earth shaking as he walks) had obeyed and mastered the material years ago he’d be at a level far higher than the one I’ve enjoyed from six measly years of serious PFAL study. I was SURELY not at this level six years ago. I not only expect this level of skill from all the top leaders, I absolutely DEMAND it of them! Otherwise I trumpingly say to them “You’re FIRED!” *** You wrote: “(the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)” No, JAL is not the enemy, but as long as he uses that genetic and taught charisma to maintain and build a personal following, and he leads people farther and farther from the accuracy God taught Dr and Dr put in writing, then he's HELPING that enemy. He don’t need no gentleness, just a swift kick in the pants as he is relieved of all his leadership privileges. I agree with your assesment of the great need for gentleness toward those who were hurt, but toward the derelict leaders to whom there was given double honor, there now should be given double condemnation. You can find the verses yourself. In other words, he has a millstone around his neck, and you aren’t going to be able to get it off. *** The REAL Christ within is not that wonderful and needed gift of pneuma hagion. That gift is Christ in you the HOPE of glory, but it’s only a token of the REAL Christ to come, that Christ formed within the soul, the mind, the heart of a real man. That REAL Christ within is not the HOPE of glory; it’s the GLORY! Glory was defined for us on page 92 of WWAY as “to ‘speak authoritatively’ of those things of which he has true knowledge.” It’s this glory and the REAL Christ within that all those top leaders had a golden opportunity to realize, but they walked away from the revelation we were given (PFAL) and back into the cesspools of tradition (KJV research and the like). *** One last thing Dart, watch out how strongly you allow yourself to be offended by me. I might be able to someday sic shazdancer on you. ;)-->