Mike

def59, Thank you for your positive approach, challenging as it is. I'm glad to be proven wrong in my negative expectation. :)--> Is your wish list in order of importance to you? Not only is my time limited this morning, but this whole list may take me the whole winter to touch on. A few items I've already touched on here, and a few are beyond my abilities at this moment. Let me try the first one for starters: Who is God? "In the beginning was the Word..." There's more, but I'm trying to be brief. "God's Word is as much God as God is God" is another gem. It says that the most important thing to know about God (much like knowing the most important thing about a human being who is knowledgeable and trustworthy) is what He says, thinks, wills, plans, and yearns for. With human beings and God it's also important to know what they can do. "And God said let there be light..." In other words, in addition to answering the big questions about God, His Word is also the ultimate power in the physical and spiritual worlds. The first verse used in "Jesus Christ Is NOT God" is Deuteronomy 29:29. "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." In other words, God gives us His Word, and in the right proportions and forms. God's Word is His essence, it's His power, and it's been given to us in written form and in flesh form in His Son Jesus Christ. When we embrace these two forms entirely, then He gives His Word spiritually to us so that we can become like His Son, Jesus Christ.

After mentioning on another thread that I am very sensitive to the wishes of the owner of that new website (somewhat TWI affiliated)regarding my posting habits there on his site, it surprised me that I wasn't immediately pounced on by "the usual suspects" and accused of NOT being sensitive to the wishes of the owner of THIS website. Maybe some of my regular antagonists are so blinded by their rage against me that they didn't see their opportunity when it was right in their faces. ;)--> Well actually, I most definitely AM sensitive to Pawtucket's wishes, and his hint yesterday, hidden in a pretty good joke, has prompted the idea for me starting this thread today. *** There are many things in the "About the Way" forum that I am keenly interested in commenting on, but I can see that blind rage often flares up there, even if I so much as try to help out. The reaction to my attempt today to augment Bluzeman's efforts regarding the hiding of identities is just one mild example. Because I do care for people in general here, and not just Pawtucket's well being, I am setting up this thread as a place where I can comment from a slight distance on some of the happenings in the "About the Way" forum. It can bother me that my message and posts aggravate some people way too much over there. I'm going to try and sequester myself here in this thread, or maybe in other ones like it, labeled proPFAL, to warn people that they might not like what's inside. However, there may be times when a most important subject, and/or maybe one with fewer aggravation buttons attached, comes up and I'd like then to post there. I'd also like to jettison the "Masters..." thread, not because I am finished with that subject, but because I know the size bothers people. My purpose in posting is NOT to aggravate anyone, but to help. *** My purpose here, much to the disbelief of some, is NOT to promote myself. My efforts in these proPFAL directions, have accomplished JUST THE OPPOSITE of promoting myself in the eyes of the vast majority of grads, and not just GreaseSpotters. The reason I continue is because I firmly believe the message I have embraced is true even if nobody believes it, AND that it is vital to all. Even if I have to pay a steep price for my proPFAL activities, I'm convinced enough in it's Truth to pay that price and continue promoting, not myself, not vpw, not twi, but the contents of the written PFAL. I think I've proved myself intelligent enough to have perceived the lack of response that my pleas to come back to PFAL have garnered, as well as the demotion of my reputation. For people to remind me of these things is a wasted exercise in redundancy... and vain repetition. ;)--> *** I'm thinking, as mentioned on another thread, of a separate thread for the spurious charges of plagiarism where I can collect and re-write all my ideas already posted on that topic, and if I do I'll prefix the title of that thread with "proPFAL" like I did this general thread. I may also do one on the sex issue, but that's more complicated, and more difficult emotionally for some to deal with, AND more difficult emotionally for me to deal with as well. I've mentioned that I was hurt by the sex problems of twi, but I don't like talking about it in any detail. *** It's been suggested at times that I post on another website. I have considered that deeply, and may still do that someday. However, one of the reasons I post here is that there are many issues bugging you folks that no other grads have risen up to address. It's HERE that those issues come out. I'm one of the few who have taken advantage of the great information and instruction available to those who come back to PFAL with intentions to meekly master it. By "meekly" I mean recognizing it as God's revelation and not merely vpw's opinions. The same issues are squelched in other splinter groups because their leaders, regardless of their claims to have loved VPW, have disobeyed Dr's final instructions, and are not mastering the material needed to deal with those issues properly. For that reason they resent me trying to help there as it makes their leadership look bad. There are a few websites I may gravitate to deal with the much more enlightening issues that are within the contents of PFAL. *** So what else is happening? Oh yes... And now for this antiMike commercial message to find fault with my good intentions here. :P--> ...or maybe a lot of such messages... :D-->

Belle, I hear you. I heard igotout. And I think (there's been a LOT of activity lately) Abigail gave the same advice. My long posts there set the stage for what I know the BOD needs to come to grips with if they are going to have the strength, wisdom, and understanding to deal with the many other issues. There has been twenty years of accumulated error, both there and everywhere that grads are. It takes a lot to even start unraveling all that error. I'm most sensitive to the demands of JB, the website owner, but I have also heard the three voices over here. I now agree, after much thought and additional consultation, that I ought to cool it on the long posts and see how things develop there in a dialog fashion. The stage is set there for resonable dialog. In other words: OK! So, what do you think of HCW's long posts? I like them a lot.

HCW, Bravo, again! Another masterpiece. Your filter is well described. I went through almost exactly the same set of scenarios as you did, but I haven't described them nearly as eloquently, and in nearly as detailed and relatable a fashion as you have. For me it was the 1977 Christmas party... and on and on with only minor tweaks in the story line...

Bluzeman, You wrote: "Even with a static ip address though, the only thing they could trace you back to is the server at your isp. To get your name and any personal information, they would have to request the isp to go through thier records and determine who was assigned that ip address at a specific time, and most isp's will not do that without a court order." If it's the case that "your isp" is not a national one, but a small local one, then that could be enough information to reveal identity. The flock is so small and spread out, that city ID could get pretty close to personal ID. Correct me if I'm wrong about this: a static isp address comes with DSL, cable, and what else? A dial-up brings in a new isp address every time a connection is made. Safest ID protection: national ISP with dial-up conection.

His name is on many of the books they read. All the older people remember him.

CC, You wrote: "Just like walking away from the "the true Household of God" is "walking away from God", right Mike?" No! My whole point is that the supposed "true" household leadership ignored Dr's final instructions and a whole string of instructions for ten years prior. Others here just recently, like HCW and shazdancer and TheEvan, have agreed with the accurate parts of the POP that most leadership distanced themselves from Dr long before he died. The evidence is overwhelming that their claim to power is false. Their fear is in this being seen by the people.

JT, I'd like to think the best and that ANYONE there can turn to God's love. It's as simple as opening a book and reading with meekness. He can save to the uttermost.

Not that loyalty to Dr. Wierwille is a noble thing in itself: It's just at all "the powers that be" in human eyes trace their authority back to him. True authority to speak comes only from loyalty to God. Betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God, and by forsaking the Author of love, the protection from fear evaporates. Carnal leadership authority, even in many of the splinter groups, is totaly dependant on VPW's legacy in the hearts of the people being led.

Cherished Child, I can assure you that those who have betrayed Dr. Wierwille in New Knoxville have far more fear in their lives than you. This fear extends down to all their allies. The best thing we can do is pray for them and open up those collaterals and see what dispels fear: perfect love. (TNDC p.230)

Galen, The whole world is watching! That's from the 1968 Chicago Dems Convention. *** Oakspear, I wasn't kidding, but I did mitigate it a bit also with the qualifier of the paper walls, and then with humor. I was serious but not dead serious. JB took it serious too, and now he's hanging sheet rock in there, after deleting your post. The first thing a person should do if a baby bear cub is happened upon in the forest is run upwind and then crosswind. The momma bear is downwind and nearby. People can be very sensitive about their 20 year old kids. Besides there are other kids in there too. I just think it's not wise to argue at all with the innocents, and the younger set, and those who are still under the watchful eye of their parents.

TheEvan, In case you didn't notice it, my last response to you contained an attempt on my part to match the tone with which you dished it out to me. I don't like posting that way, so I'm taking a more relaxed approach to respond on some of the other things you posted. Returning briefly though, to the spurious charge of plagiarism, I think I may do an Advanced Search myself sometime and collect together all that I've posted on that one subject. It might make a nice thread. You wrote: "Oh, one other thing for you Bible believer types out there in happy Bible land: It says holy men of God spake. Doesn't that disqualify Wierwille." Have you thought of the difference between being qualified for rewards versus being qualified for doing a job? The subject of rewards is future, and we don't know who gets what yet. But in the past we do know a lot about various men who were given jobs to do, as these things are often reported in God's Word. There are a few men that come to mind that got some jobs done in spite of what WE might think would disqualify them. Jacob is the classic example. His very name meant "con artist" until God changed it to Israel. Didn't he lie and cheat his brother out of something important? Yet God still honored him abundantly with the job of passing on the Christ line, as well as other things. How about Balaam, the great-great-great ancestor of Wilbur Post, the owner of TV's Mr. Ed? Balaam received a wonderful revelation regarding the coming of the messiah at the very minute he was being paid by a pagan to curse Israel. His prophesy is recorded in your KJV, and he was "crookeder than a dog's hind legs." Wasn't Moses a little hot headed enough to have killed a man? Yet God gave him plenty of jobs to do. How about David, who not only knocked up his best friend's wife, he also had his friend killed when his cover up scheme failed? He wrote a lot of Psalms after that, even though the stain on his record would have disqualified him for just about any job in the want ads. What about Solomon who was had lots and lots of pagan wives? I hear he was quite a nasty guy too. Maybe a lot of that was later in his life, but why would God choose him to receive the mother load of wisdom if God had foreknowledge of his end? If you were God wouldn't you chose a spokesman who would keep a good reputation? I would. But then again, you and I are not God. God has his own criteria for making such selections. God does give us a set of criteria for making the selections of trusted servants in some situations, like who's going to be hired for the job of baby sitter, or who's going to be hired for the pastorate of a local church. Maybe you are confusing the two different sets of criteria. We don't EVER get to select who's going to be God's spokesman. Only God can do that, and He's doesn't have to get our approval for whoever He selects. Dr's selection as God's spokesman was done long ago. Dr found out about it in 1942, and he says he was ready to disqualify himself as a pastor at that time. But God had other plans. God selected him, gave him the revelations to be put into written form, gave him the revelations as to how to get it distributed around the world, and then it was over. God didn't consult you or me or anybody here or elsewhere, he just did it and the jobs got done. How many rewards Dr gets is totally between him an God. I don't think you'd like anyone else butting into God's decision on your rewards, and you shouldn't butt into that process between God and Dr either. We're coming full circle, because I just noticed that the successful distribution of these revelations around the world was an area where Dr excelled far beyond his teachers and other sources of material. Dr popularized Bullinger far beyond the reach he'd ever have had alone. BG Leonard was not very outreach oriented either. Kenyon may have sold a few books here and there, but no where near the outreach of the WOW program. One area that Dr didn't seem to be so successful was in how well he was able to become the man he knew to be, and Dr himself said so, for years, on tape, in print, and even chiseled in stone, his gravestone. God had His reasons for overlooking Dr's sin and faults, and we shouldn't fight God. Hey, some good news is that God overlooks your sins and faults too. Isn't that a bonus? Maybe you can become the man Dr knew to be! Hey, that's no maybe, you were called by God Almighty to become that man, you've got Christ in you, the seed for that process. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.

Pam, I need to get out too. Hey igotout, I'm going out.

TheEvan, I've answered the question about the sources Dr had for the class many times here. Summary: God gave VPW revelation at times to go to such-and-such a teacher and learn from him. Dr reports on tape that some of his teachers had some revelations from God themselves. God gave Dr some revelations to omit some material, even from these relatively spiritual teachers. He also was told to change some words here and there. God also gave Dr some direct revelations of his own. Dr taught in Unv. of Life (I Thess 1:1) and (II Thess. 1:1) that the reason those epistles have three names attached is because the revelation to Paul was discussed before it was put into written form. It took time for the revelations to be understood well enough to put into written form. Dr worked these multifaceted revelations to him and to others he learned from as God directed him. Sometimes the changes were to get it more purified, like 7 times in an oven as the Psalm says. Sometimes the changes were due to changes in the revelation as per Key #13 of the 16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit we were taught inthe AC. Revelation can change when the circumstances change. God owns all of these revelations and voids all of man's copyrights, as per Deut.29:29 Now pay better attention so I wont have to repeat everything for you. Learn how to use the Advanced Search feature under the "FIND" button to see all the many details I've posted on this, including many of Dr's own words in writing and on tape that you forgot or slipped by you back then.

PamelaSanDiegoCalifornia! What are we doing inside on a beautiful day like today???!!!

igotout, Who do you think is going to win the pennant this year?

My impression of JB's wishes is that he doesn't mind at all. I've done a little e-mailing with him and it hasn't come up...yet. Also I'm witnessing to the BOD.

If JB had suggested that I would immediately start thinking differently. I have toyed with idea of a separate website too. . . . (sorry for the post post editing above ... [and here too])

igotout, My bubble is not burst. I'm having fun there. Cyber ink is cheap, and Pg Dn keys are easy to hit. Besides people keep coming back to see it. I'm practicing my manifesto that several people here suggested I do.

Abigail, Now that I've had my laugh, I agree with you. JB Yophoto seems to be a very decent guy. I think we're seeing that although things did go radically wrong at TWI, much is changing as time goes by and things mellow out. Many decent people stayed there to ride out the storm of LCM. Some were successful at keeping a low profile and escaping the axe. When I talked about 4 years ago to John Shroyer, now with CFF, he told me that exactly. I believed him then because I somewhat tried to do it too around 1989, and thought others (who got Geered out) should have done it too. I think the fact that they have and are working the collaterals is a huge factor in helping effect this change.

Quick! Oakspear, igot... --> Oops! (whispering): I mean Oakspear, igotout, Abigail, burn all your play books, quick! You don't know nothin' until we can all meet and get our stories straight!. :(-->

Golly HCW, Thanks for helping out here. I like your no-pulling-punches style, in addition to the great heart you have and remember being there. Gosh, I'm a little scared of finding out what we two may DISAGREE on, but I'm calmed to see the many, many things we agree on. :)--> Back to that photo: is there any chance the Illuminati counterfeited that Kodak paper and substituted a robot Mrs. Wierwille to explain those things to you? ;)-->

. . . . . . WOW! . . . HCW, we gotta talk sometime! Please e-mail me or PT me, ok?

My turn. ******* Yikes! I just saw that HCW just stepped in the building after I wrote and posted the following. I thought I'd post this and go to bed, but now I see I have some more reading to do. ******* Based on shazdancer's post and The Evan's post: Is it any wonder that Dr's last teaching was utterly lost? Has anyone ever wondered WHY a prophet is always lacking honor in his own country and with his own kin? It's because they see his all his $hit and more. Everyone's got it, so how's God ever going to get His Word into the world? God had to get His Word into the world so that His Son could read it and grow up in that Word, but God HAD to select sinful men to write that Word for His Son to eventually read. There's no other way! And the devil, always wants to hide the Word so he magnifies the sin of God's spokesmen to those who are close enough see it, and then he also magnifies the temptations thrown at those spokesmen. A prophet is not without honor EXCEPT with his own kin and countrymen. A prophet is ALWAYS without honor with his own kin and countrymen. And George Aar, yes, God's work behind enemy lines here in the devil's world IS very delicate and is always dismantled as soon as possible, and with the help of those kin and countrymen who are always quickly talked out of believing well before the prophet's death. Look in the Old Testament for account after account where God's work in human institutions ALWAYS falls apart. In the devil's kingdom it's only God's WORD that's durable! ***** Reflecting on HCW's posts and my own observations, the relationship between Uncle Harry and VPW was one of father and son. When Uncle Harry was hospitalized for the second time Dr announced at a lunch meeting that he didn't know how he was going to do the ministry if Harry died. It was the most negative public confession I ever saw come from him. I knew Uncle Harry MUCH better than I knew VPW. When I first arrived to work at HQ Uncle Harry immediately took me under his wing. He'd take me places to help orient me to the area. He found me a room to rent in St. Mary's. He helped me find a car. He helped me deal with my landlord when a severe problem arose. He had me over for dinner. I was the first person to ever handle Uncle Harry's autobiography. He walked into the Tape Duplicating Dept one day where I worked and had several cassette tapes in his hand. He asked me if I could be trusted with his life. As he handed the tapes to me he said that they were the only copies of his life story, and that he needed duplicates made. He didn't understand the technology and was worried that they might accidentally get erased. I explained to him how it all worked and how we insured against accidental erasure and he was relieved. One day I asked Uncle Harry how the Board of Trustees meetings worked. I was wondering if they all got revelation together at the same time, or one at a time, or just one, or what? He told me that it wasn't that way at all. He said that they often fought like cats and dogs with the door shut in private. But then he said that if it was he and Ermal voting against Vic, but after all the discussions Vic would look him in the eye and tell him "Thus saith the Lord" then THAT'S when he'd change his vote and go Vic's way. I got from him that Dr did make mistakes, and needed to be firmly opposed many times for having the wrong ideas. Vic was his little brother, and Harry told me that they both grew up together with Harry often looking out for Vic like the father who couldn't be there. But then he also let me know that God would step in and overrule that whole process at times, and He would let Harry know when it was time to step aside. What an incredible and delicate balance I saw! If it weren't for the undeniable fact that I got to intimately know the loving True God from VPW's teaching, a God so different from the Roman Catholic nightmare god I had hounding me with daily guilt and dread for as long as I could remember, I'd have never believed such a delicate balance was real.

Oakspear, I just noticed, the grammar fan that I am, that both you and I just used a "that that" correctly! Coincidence?