Mike

....similar... harrumph! I tend to think when I hear that phrase that Jesus must have known that he knew that he knew. The number of repetitions is a mere figure of speech in my mind. Why stop at three? In what I got from VPW, to know that I know that I know... simply means I have the maximum allowable "amount" of surety. I use the word "surety" a lot. It is a fundamental concept in science. VPW did not teach anything like salvation through secret knowledge. Romans 10:9 has been getting around for centuries now. It was secret before Martin Luther, though. VPW did rightly teach that lots of error invaded the church, making the truth secret to the extent the RC church could suppress it. That the dead were dead and unconscious was secret knowledge to me. It made my life more whole to know that. So, yes wholeness of knowledge can obviously benefit if suppressed knowledge is made available. But eternal life wholeness salvation, we were taught was a gift, and easy to get, and that lots of us already had it.

Yes. The reason I somewhat ignored it was the formatting sucked and too confusing to my eyes, and the group was too large. Trim the number way down, and make it easier on the eyes, and I may feel like answering them. I am hoping you will see that most of your questions should melt away if you carefully read this: This is important about this idea: The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern. They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking. */*/* What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS. Limitations in both amount and time. Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount. And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time. */*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/* Don't ask me anything about how the limitations work. I simple see them in the scriptures. I posted half, and the other half is coming.

The heavy workload of doing that separation of truth from error is the reason I never looked into the Gnostics. There was no need. I didn't run into any at Starbucks.

By which standard(s) or authority(ies) do you identify exactly where the Gnostics were in error, as opposed to where they got it right?

No. The purpose of an analogy is to teach an aspect of reality, which is distant and difficult to understand, with an easy to understand part of familiar reality. So I picked budget and door, which are based in familiar reality. I still have the budget verses to post. I am trying to go through the list to find the easiest and most obvious ones, and refrain from posting the subtle ones.

Were they wrong about everything? I have not looked into that at all. I never felt the need to even wikipedia them. But see you folks are nearly obsessed with them.

This is important about this idea: The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern. They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking. */*/* What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS. Limitations in both amount and time. Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount. And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.

No these patterns I saw had nothing to do with PFAL or anything like that. I was unhappy with the lack of miracles, even for stretches of months in the 70s, but much worse in the 80s. I wanted more in my life, but as time went by I got less, and saw less with others. I did not expect leadership to be at all supportive of this budget hunch of mine. They would all simply mechanically react with "all nine all the time" and then resume with shoving under the rug the scarcity of miracles in their twigs or branches or areas. I only dared share this with close, smart friends. That pretty much excluded most Way Corps. I thought I might be going against VPW as I formulated this many years ago.

Yes, that very thin margin is the budget end of this. The double doors are merely a timelike extention of the same idea of a tight budget. The doors are only open for a minimal time. Yes, Jesus rose above this, and the first century church rose above it for a time (like TWI-1 in the 70s) and then later lost it as James was killed, Barnabas fought with Paul, Peter was slack with the Gentiles, and all forsook Paul. So, even in Acts, several years pass after Pentecost, the major miracles became more scarce as the chapters grind on and Paul is eventually taken out.

First mistake is I did NOT say: Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both 'doors.'" I think what happens is God strategically opens the doors, and shuts them as soon as possible. While open angels and devils rush through the doors to do their intervention work. Also, at this time humans may be involved in getting work done. */*/* Please notice that I said these peaks I am noticing are twin "major interventions with power." I am not talking about someone operating the 9 manifestations in general. Yes, miracles and some healings can be pretty major, but they can also be lesser in manifested power. As I said above, once the doors are open a human may be involved in doing some of the work. */*/* With discerning of spirits, I think you are stretching the door analogy way out of shape, just like someone stretched the budget analogy the other day. The doors are doors of opportunity, not like the water-tight doors of a ship's compartments as you are over-envisioning. */*/* Cherry picked usually has a evil essence attached to it. It is false evidence. It is like saying, "Mike, there are a lot of verses that directly contradict the double doors idea, and you avoided picking them." Ok, then if you are going to accuse me of that, let me see the verses that I did not pick, but which directly contradict the double doors idea. I don't mean verses that simply lack clues that say "double doors." I mean verses that say pretty directly that the double doors idea can't be valid.

More than the war which always rages, these are twin peaks in major power interventions, that are relatively close to each other in time. Zooming out on the timeline, it looks like a lot of rolling hills and dales, with twin mountains sprinkled about lightly. ...or with scarcity.

Hey! What I found was something different. It's another Double Door scripture for my list. I boiled the list down to single lines for review. Also I hope it gets others seeing double doors open in the scriptures to help me build the list. And I am also finishing up on the other scripture list. That's still a bunch of work, because it is much longer and more complicated. Still thinking some of it through. Here is the latest, brief Double Doors list: Genesis - Both God and the devil had access to Adam and Eve In Exodus - Moses’ rod turns into a snake, court magicians do same Naaman healed of leprosy, Gehazi catches leprosy. Sampson’s last stand succeeds, and he dies. Matt - John Baptist’s father w angel, cannot speak afterwards Matt – Holy Spirit on Jesus, devil on Jesus mind in desert Matt 4 – Devil tempts w/food, angels bring food Acts - Stephen’s vision, Stephen’s stoning. Acts – Paul sees Jesus, Paul blinded Romans 5:20 death reigns, life reigns 1 Corinthians 16:9 great open door to Paul, many adversaries 2 Corinthians - abundance of revelations, thorn in the flesh

No, all these same questions came up in my life, and I asked them. These questions also came up in my twigs, and as twig leader I felt I had to help find answers if I didn't have them immediately. I led a twig '74-76, and 79-81, and lots of questions came up. People asked all these same kinds of questions before you folks came to do it. I would NEVER be able to make up the answers I posted. On some things I've been rusty, but not totally. It's been a great review for me. I wanted to do this years ago here, but it took a while for me to pull my old notes together. Nope, not making it up. There ARE some points I am less sure about. I am aware of them and want to work on them someday.

NO. It wasn't that way at all. It was usually just a new grad who was expressing a little over enthusiasm for the law of believing, like the way OldSkool said he felt invincible with the class teaching on believing (?think it was OS?) I'd mention the apostles dying because I could see the emotion had chased away their reasoning ability a tiny bit. In the rush of feelings they were forgetting that the apostles died. My gentle reminder would pull up their memory with no trouble. Now aren't you ashamed your yourself for thinking the worst of your brothers and sisters? Did you REALLY think my friends were that ignorant? Or was that just a "stage question" for the dramatic effect on the folks at home reading this?

Thanks for the reminder. I’ve seen NUMEROUS times where I wanted to say this but didn’t have the time or the multi-tasking skills it demanded. In 2 Peter, at the very end of the Epistle, in Peter’s dying last words to us, we read: “ Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15,16) That sociologist would have to grade grads on a curve, or some other statistical trick, to take into account this kind of “self-destruction” factor for grads who didn’t master the material enough. I think what Peter was talking about then happened to us. It was good teaching, but it was hard to totally understand, and some went off the road with inaccurate understandings of the law of believing. I know this happened to me, and I had a tough slow time correcting it. I saw it happen to some of my friends over the years, and I strongly sense that it happened to lots of posters here, too.

LoL You sound like Eliza, the ancient ChatGPT from 1964. Actually you are better than her. But you mimicked her lack of sentience very well. I am assuming here that you deliberately distorted your query on my implying, and were playing a Rogerian therapist for humor's sake.

Please allow me to calm your hysteria down about them not receiving. It was NOT the everyday operation of believing that did flopped in their lives, according to Hebrews 11. It was NOT the miraculous operation of believing that flopped in their lives, according to Hebrews 11. According to Hebrews 11 it was not seeing the Messiah born that they endured. Of course, like all the apostles, the cloud of witnesses also eventually gave up and died. I used to marvel at how many grads, feeling invincible with believing, were not so aware of all the apostles dying. When I would remind them it was like a letdown I could see on their faces.

Persistence in applying the law of believing is crucial also. Remember the story where Jesus healed a blind man, but it didn't work right? So, he did it again and it worked.

It sounds like you moved on, from an incomplete understanding of the PFAL version of how believing works, to a better understanding of item (3) and you can't control everything. I imagine, too, when you read the Gospels and Jesus teaches on how believing works you feel better about his words. Am I right about that?

It is heavy data laden. Handle with care.

Yup. With those 3 points I just mentioned above, no one would think they could do everything. We missed all 3 of those points bigtime.

I think it is your UNDERSTANDING of the law of believing that is false. Your understanding (really all of our's; mine too) was stuck at the foundational level, where the law was first explained. It was available to grow from that, but it took us a long time. For me it was from late 1971 to late 1988, before I started to advance my understanding from foundational. Here is what an accurate understanding of the law of believing MUST include: (1) Linking a promise or direct revelation to believing. This was slow in coming for all of us. (2) Learning to recognize the subtle differences between believing and mental assent went over many people heads entirely. (3) Recognizing the notion that lots of other forces are at work competing with our believing. Few grads have ever risen to keenly understand these three crucial items.

In all the posting frenzy with multiple people I totally missed this post of yours. I responded to the one right after this, but never saw this that preceded it. You wrote: “But if God's ability equals his willingness why didn't he give the revelation?” I too have pulled my hair out asking God the same kind of questions. I imagine Paul asked God why he wasn’t getting sprung from jail and execution. I know for sure he pulled his hair out over his thorn in the flesh, and he finally got an answer that sounds very “budget” like “My grace is sufficient for thee.” None of us like the “no cookie” answer. I have no clear idea why it is this way, but it is. I have some limited understanding of it, though from the scriptures. They tell us of other hair pullers that have gone before us, some getting great miraculous results at times, but who ALL eventually ran out of gas, or karma, or budget, or the door was shut, or angels were delayed…. I don’t get it any better than you, but the scriptures have lots of examples like this. It is missing in the PFAL class because that is how laws are described in Physics: first in isolation, then later more advanced cases where other forces are interfering or trying to hinder. That Daniel Chapter 9 incident opened my eyes to the reality that I have NO IDEA what is really going on in the spirit world and what God’s angels are doing with Christ Jesus leading their charges through open doors. This came up a little regarding that man Peter and John healed who sat at the gate named Beautiful. How many days did they walk by him with no revelation? Why was God so tardy in getting that taken care of? I have no idea, but I have learned to relax and remember that we are in a spiritual war. Did you see the exchange yesterday that I had with So_crates several times about this war, and us living behind enemy lines, in a broken universe? George Lucas got that part right; that is no peace out there in the universe; it is continuous bigtime war in the spiritual universe. If you saw that exchange, did you recognize how I was throwing out simple Foundational Class stuff at So_crates with those posts? I was using my own “street” terminology, and he seemed to not be able to make the translation. Were you able to translate? …and see that I was bringing up the falls in the First and Second Heaven and Earth? And that the broken universe is in Romans 8:22 ? “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.” That is how I stopped pulling my hair out at why doesn’t God fix things right now! */*/* There was a man born blind, and it wasn’t his parents fault, if I remember Jesus’ words right. This is like a “$hit Happens” verse in my mind. Another one is Lazarus being very sick and Jesus doesn’t have the revelation to go to him immediately. Everyone at Lazarus’ house were probably pulling hair out over lots of stuff, like how did Lazarus get so sick in the first place? I noticed you haven’t brought the problem of how did your son get robbed of normalcy in the first place. That is a tough one too, that I have pulled my hair out over. I have often seen leadership twist the devil’s knife by accusing the victim of allowing it. I had this thrown in my face more than once by Corps imitating what the were abuses with in training. My best understanding, as I mentioned a few pages ago, is that in addition to the law of believing at work, there are others things going on, LOTS of other things going on, and they are war related and evil and not fair. Remember prophet who prayed that his student prophet could see this, and that there were twice as many angels on our side? Lots of terrible confusing stuff happens in a war, even collateral damage. Someday every tear will be wiped away, and everything will be fair and just, and “thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

When you are ready to mix we can talk again.

I'm just curious how you resolve these things in your life, with what you know now. Your solution has a lot to do with the fullness of the conversation. If you reckon yourself an interrogator, and I am sweating under the hot light, then please STOP IT !! If you want me to answer your questions, then you answer mine. Do you blame God or not for your crappy life?