Mike

def59, It's never been my contention that Dr was our Messiah or that he replaced Christ. He was simply a man who put God's revelation into written form for us. I focus on the revelations, not on the man. The reason I posted three of the clear passages where Dr CLAIMED to be giving us God-breathed teaching was NOT to prove to you that his claim is true. The reason I posted those three passages was to prove that there were MANY things that you and others did not hear, but that DID get said. Many things Dr taught us went over our heads and/or were forgotten. It's in these many things that the proof resides of Dr's claims being accurate. By coming back to PFAL with a meek heart we can see these many things and be greatly blessed by God Who gave an abundance of His revelations to us in the PFAL written materials.

I'm not picturing that, and I am hearing you. Most of what HCW said to me I've heard before, and I've posted on before. I'm getting to the point of not WANTING to hear the rejection of God and His blessings to us. Please remember that I spent 27 years in the frame of mind of rejecting Dr's God given authority. I not only hear those who speak against this Word here, but I remember saying to myself and out loud the same things. I've got the answers to the objections posted here, and HAD the answers 7 years ago. I never would have come here posting if I hadn't had all my objections answered first. I've answered many of those objections here in the past two years but they were not well absorbed. People like you, Tom, look to my posts not for these answers but for ways you can trip me up.

HCW, People who trusted in the man were disappointed. To the extent that people believed the 2000 year unique revelations, starting in 1942, that God gave Dr and Dr put into written form, those people got blessed. The reason you didn't hear of these teachings being God-breathed is because you had your ears closed to it. You can open them to what is written on pages 34 and 116 of TNDC, and page 83 of PFAL and see that Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed. Or you can close off your mind to this great blessing God has given us.

WordWolf, It just turns out that I actually DO have a little experience recognizing and even dealing with dementia. I've mentioned here that I spent 7 years during the 90's participating in weekly 2 hour discussions with some of the world's top brain scientists. Much of what science knows about the brain stems from study of broken brains, such as gunshot wounds, strokes, infections, and diseases such as Alzheimer's. The concept of dementia was often brought up in those discussions, and I supplemented the talk with much outside reading. During that same time span, a very close neighbor contracted Alzheimer's, and in the later stages of his dementia I was often called upon to help administer his medications to him. He would get into thinking that his wife was trying to kill him with the pills and would refuse to take them. As a trusted friend, I had to try and talk him into taking the pills and to not worry about dying from them. It was quite a learning experience. I know that Dr did NOT suffer from dementia in the way that term is bandied about these days. I can see him suffering on many occasions from pain, complications from medications, and lack of sleep. Anyone going through cancer deals with those factors, and knows that they can sometimes bring out the worst in people, especially in the later stages of that disease, and/or when all are acting in concert. Sorry to Dr's detractors, but those two last teachings of Dr's testify to his undiminished mental ability to pull himself and his thoughts together in the midst of great suffering. That he was lucid even in his final weeks was a major point of Chris Geer's POP. If Chris had been inaccurate on that point it would have diminished his ability to have credibility before the Board of Trustees. If Dr had shown a demented mind to those closest to him then Chris' claim to power would have fizzled. Although I do not accept the main inferred premise of the POP (that vpw "mantled" Chris), I do see that it has many facts well reported. Ralph D testified to this, too. Those closest to Dr knew that his mind was intact. That Dr was lucid in those last weeks, as reported in the POP, was never rejected after Craig split with Chris around '89. As I study that very last teaching, the one that got lost, I see some marvelously well hidden reproof for top leadership. That reproof was purposely hidden with a Godly design to help them save face, should they decide to change. The entire teaching was hidden by devilish design because it contained the GREAT key we all need to finally get it right. Dr's final LUCID instructions to us were that we should master the written materials of PFAL.

I have the video of Dr's second to last teaching and the audio of his last. Yes, he looks less than the best of health in the video, and his voice is noticeably even weaker on the audio. But in each of these taped teachings a sound mind is plainly evident. The structure and complexity of those teachings are sound. The words issued are not those of a man with dementia... not in the least. I know that he was being TREATED as if he were over the hill in those days, but I have no trouble at all treating his final recorded words with the utmost of respect. It's sad for me to see the efforts people will go to to relieve themselves of the responsibility of hearing out what he had to say to us in those final weeks of his life. I have seen many excuses people use to write him off, even from his most vocal supporters at the time. Most everyone seems bound and determined to do everything BUT what he said to do, everything BUT master the PFAL writings. I see nothing better than mastering them.

I'd like to apply for the position of the mad prophet who screams that everyone has it all wrong and that everything is going to hell in a handbasket. I come with references, and with two years of experience documented in writing.

Frankee, Here I have to switch from my silly Firesign attitude, to which this thread has semi-morphed, into a serious attitude on topic with this thread's original intent and your thoughtful post. I've posted this almost a thousand times, but since you're new here I'll do it again. In my investigations it's become very clear that the original 1967 film class was only the introduction to the much more substantial set of writings that came with the class. It's to these writings that Dr pointed in the final years of his life as most important for us grads, especially the leadership oriented grads. If we really want to receive for ourselves the fulness of what God has to offer, it's in mastering the PFAL writings. If we want to really offer God's fullness to non-grads, then mastering these writings is essential. This is the thrust of Dr's very last teaching: first master the writings, THEN serve others. I am happy to see your positive orientation to the film class. There's even more positive treasures to discover in the writings that we either have forgotten, or that slipped by us unnoticed back then.

So, how many Firesign Theatre fans showed up here? If anyone starts a Firesign thread, please let me know.

Well folks, I have to make hay while the sun shines here in San Diego, so my available time is very short to deal with the pile on, or the pile up, of posts here in this thread. I see that personal attacks are still the M.O. of some. I feel much more challenged by posts that deal with the substance of the issue. When I see my personal life the focus of posts here I know the writer is stumped on the real issue of the soundness of PFAL. This is all the more the case when that focus on me gets nasty and derogatory. I feel no challenge when the subject is me. What the Hay, I look forward to reading your long post better than the light skim I've had time for it so far. HCW, I noticed that you avoided answering my question about your only rule for faith and practice, but I already know what the general form of the answer is. If the answer were "yes" you'd have said so, and proudly posted it's Library of Congress number(s). But I see it's "no" and you wing it just like everyone else. You decide which way you will modify your KJV, NIV, or whatever version you use. You decide which critical Greek texts to lean on in which situations. You decide which theologians (or combinations of their research tools) you'll accept for any passages too difficult for you alone. If at some time later you detect a change in the wind, you'll decide which past perspectives of yours you will change for any particular verses. This is what nearly everyone does, OR they find someone else to do the same process for them. You have no God-breathed, unalterable, physically existing standard outside of your own brain. You yourself make all the doctrinal decisions in your life. Your only rule for faith and practice is whatever you happen to be thinking at the present time that suits your fancy and makes you feel like you're following God. I'm addressing this to you because you're the new guy here, but nearly everyone with natural leadership capabilities does it here, as well as elsewhere. This is how Dr opens up his last book, "Order My Steps In Thy Word," Chapter One, which is titled "GOD ALMIGHTY—EL SHADDAI" "There are some men in this world who are willing for God to be the God of heaven, but they are not willing for Him to be the God on earth. The Lord’s Prayer says, 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.' Although the prayer says, 'Thy will be done in earth,' most people want their own wills to be done here on earth. "Man’s reasoning—no matter how enlightened or how logical he may believe that he is—will never give man a true knowledge of God. Only the revelation from God in His Word does that. In order to see the greatness of our God as the 'Almighty God,' we must observe God’s revelation of Himself." If God doesn't give us this revelation of Himself, and we only have theologians to try and reconstruct, translate, and interpret the lost ancient scriptures for us, then we can never have a true spiritual knowledge of God. We may get a few accurate 5-senses things to juggle and entertain ourselves, but nothing that threatens the rule of the adversary. If God does step into the situation to fix the problem, but we reject His revelation of Himself, His Word, and His will, then we likewise will never really, spiritually, know Him.

HEY! Now you've got me surrounded! How did you do that so fast?

I'm well protected from you Mr. johniam. Just look at the large post of Roy's in between my post and your's. You'll NEVER get close enough to me to grab dem goods!

No, thank you, HCW. I have no intention of stopping what I do. (I may stop doing it HERE someday.) Trying to do it better is high on my priority list, though. Speaking of consistency, is there a consistent, unalterable physical standard (that's already written) you answer to and derive guidance from? Or do you wing it with a semi-standard set of writings over which YOU are the final judge on what is believed and what is "scratched out" and what is wide-margin modified? I'm NOT asking you if you abstractly look to the original manuscripts of the Bible (in their original languages and original understandings) as your only rule of faith and practice. I am asking you if you have found (existing in the physical realm) a set of authoritative writings that you feel you must measure up to as your ultimate authority. If you don't have such a set of writings as your only rule for faith and practice, don't feel embarrassed to say so. Hardly anyone here does. Most people make a set of judgment calls as to what portions of available versions of scripture in translation/version form they like and that they will live their life according to.... until they find some reason or some theologian's reason to alter that portion. This is an easy question to answer. It can come in forms like "Yes I have such a standard, and this is what it is, and you can get a copy of it here: (...fill in the blank...)." Or another simple answer can come in a form like: "No, but I'm working on one, and have many pieces of it in place already that are unalterable... almost... as far as I know now" The second type of answer, the "No" answer, comes in many more varieties compared to the "Yes" answer. I just offered one common one. If you feel like being very brief, I'd accept a simple yes or no answer, and then you can resume your tirade against me and my sanity. I'll wait until you seem to be finished before I attempt to collect my notes for answering points. If I have time I can answer them all, I think. There many be a few I don't know the answers to, or some that I don't know quite how to get the answer in print, but I'll try. But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.

WOW! What happened? OH! The Doctrinal Forum! I didn't have my safety belt on! I need time to Get my BALANCE!

May I again issue my request that we cool it here and take this to the Doctrinal forum? ...Oh, yeah, and that we focus on the subject more and not on me, and not on picky details as if this were a courtroom going over a contract? We should give Galen his thread back. I'll even admit that it's all my fault this grew into a Doctrinal forum thread

May I again issue my request that we cool it here and take this to the Doctrinal forum? ...Oh, yeah, and that we focus on the subject more and not on me, and not on picky details as if this were a courtroom going over a contract? We should give Galen his thread back. I'll even admit that it's all my fault this grew into a Doctrinal forum thread.

Back to You Oakspear, I'm thankful you posted what you posted. I'd like to handle it like we discussed it previously. You wrote: "Maybe Wierwille didn't literally believe that his PFAL replaced the bible versions, much less the "Word of God", but I think it is obvious that he believed that his interpretation of the bible was the only correct one, regardless of what the overwhelming majority of scholars might say; that his definitions were more accurate than those who studied the biblical languages for decades, even though his mastery of them was superficial at best; that his pronouncements of "new light" with little or sometimes no textual documentation were correct (remember the times he insisted he was right in the face of unanimous textual evidense to the contrary - "Someday we'll find a text that backs me up"); that he was, literally, the final arbiter of just what "THE Word of God" was. __ This is different than what Mike is claiming, but Wierwille did believe that he was the filter through which God's will must pass." The last sentence is a little similar to what I posted earlier to dmiller. If you were to examine the 90 (mostly hidden but clear to the meek and patient) "Thus saith the Lord" statements I have found you may reverse your position of him not believing that he was the appointed spokesman. The very fact that he urged mastery of PFAL (and not mere intensified utilization of PFAL for standard Bible mastery) towards the end of his life AND for his dying last words also testifies to his knowing his calling to re-format the Word for us grads. If it hasn't been pruned I posted a document here called "Light Began to Dawn" where it's easy to see that in 1965 Dr was much more open about his calling in earlier years. If it's not still on the board, maybe I'll post it again, or excerpts from it. Whoever wants to see it can remind me. After the 1971 Elena Whiteside's book and his open statements there he had to cool it. I think the reason for this is because tons of people came in who weren't ready for his more overt proclamations. Notice that TNDC p. 34 and p. 116 are in VERY elementary chapters. Dr (and God) knew few would ever find these proclamations after their babe years, and while still babes their significance would elude them. It still eludes those who now WANT to not see it. *** I used to think Dr was either "tapped in" or that he was con artist (or worse). I didn't think there were any shades of gray in between. The proVPW splinters think of him in gray terms, which doesn't fit the evidence. He was a most extreme individual and either tapped in or gonzo. This is why I thought it practical to try and thoroughly think through the 'tapped in" angle. Our culture saturated with Elmer Gantry stories makes thingking through the other side easy. If there were many more shades of gray to also think through, it would be too hard a task. Having only two possibilities made it possible to pretty well totally examine both. In the many years prior to 1998 (even as early as 1980) and not knowing about his last teaching being so thoroughly lost, I periodically looked at the con artist and/or mentally ill angle, and was leaning more and more in that direction as the years passed. My most likely model was that he once was a good man, and he gradually lost it. His breakdown or transition period in my evolving model was steadily declining from 1975 to '72 to '68 to '60 to '56, with various reasons for each date. But when I found out in 1998 that his dying last words were so utterly ignored, it got my attention. It looked like a conspiracy was afoot, a spiritually coordinated conspiracy to have his last words buried. The conspiracy looked to be "tapped in," but to the dark side of the "force." I don't mean that I thought people consciously conspired. I mean the adversary conspired, and utilized people's services without their full (or even partial) knowledge. In some of my live interviews otherwise intelligent people would look me right in the eye (and figuratively for phone and e-mail interviews) and tell me that they didn't think that a dying man's last words had any special significance. They refused to believe me that in every culture, if a man was lucid and trustworthy, then his dying last words were always treated as very special. I'd show them, or even play for them, Dr's words at Living Victoriously where he clearly stated that his last words would contain his most important message... and all I'd get is blank stares. Taking with them was like a Twilight Zone episode that I somehow got stuck in. Most of these people regarded (or at least said so) that Dr was trustworthy. I'd tell them that some courts will accept deathbed confessions as legal testimony even if the man was NOT otherwise trustworthy. Even this wouldn't make a dent. I could see that either they were a part of a human conspiracy against Dr (unlikely though), or the more likely spiritual conspiracy was very efficiently hiding his last words and clouding their otherwise relatively clear minds. These kinds of things motivated me to not only consider and thoroughly think through the "tapped in" possibility, but to also act on that possibility and attempt to obey his final instructions. That's when I started seeing tons of things in the books that I had forgotten or that had slipped by me altogether. Subsequent interviews showed me I was not at all alone in this missing of lots of material in his books. All this has been an adventure, a true life detective story, that's unfortunately too outlandish to capitalize on and write it up in novel or screenplay form. It wouldn't have the element of believability that good fiction needs to grip the secular reader, and churchianity would be even farther from buying it. Instead, I jumped into it.

WordWolf, If the context doesn't qualify or mitigate that, then I mis-spoke.

dmiller, I think we're communicating better. Still, I think you came down hard on me, and gave a pass to many others who were much harsher, and who have no mitigating follow-up like I do. *** I contend that PFAL is the only set of books that totally unfold the KJV. Others may help here and there, but only PFAL will lead us to the fullness.

dmiller, I see no way to GET TO God's Word without PFAL. The KJV alone can't cut it. If God isn't first there's a problem.

Oakspear, Sorry about the spelling. :(--> No, I'm not quibbling WITH YOU about your use of it that word. I was anticipating others quibbling WITH ME about it... again. I'm just trying to remind them (and me) that using that word is an abreviation for a more extended idea where PRIOR heavy use of the KJV is assumed. It replaces it ONLY for OLGs. Just earlier today I stated that if I had a non-grad "convert" I'd feel it a great need to bring them through the KJV for a substantial amount of time before they could get around to mastering PFAL. Ditto for the idolatry thing. Please remember I'm talking to OLGs about OLGs.

dmiller, I think it was called for. He is not God's spokesman. Neither am I. Spiritually, I too am nobody... yet. I'm using the word "spiritually" in a stronger sense than your are accustomed to. We're supposed to be jesus Christ men and women. We're not... yet. The gift of holy spirit does not affect the flesh mind. That means it's still a natural man mind up there... until Christ is FORMED there in the mind. A natural man's mind can juggle words about spiritual matters, but they are not understood there. I will bet my life that no one here is a spiritual man... yet. The big question is which way are we moving: closer to being spiritual or farther away. dmiller, where was your sad face when people called me insane?

Thank you Oaky. I wish, though, that the use of the word "replace" in your post had the qualification that I have often propped it up with when I used it. If I weren't so tired I'd find where most recently explained how just the word "replace" is too much of an abreviation.

UncleHairy, I see you get it, at least what we talked about last. I can pretty well agree with your whole post up to that point where you say "That being said..." I do not expect anyone to believe my message based on my words. That's why I don't even try to poove anything here regarding my message on Dr's writings in PFAL God-breathed. I can prove that he said certain things that were forgotten or that slipped by us. I can show enough for those who really want to know to be motivated to come back to PFAL. But if you want to see if PFAL is God-breathed you are going to have to admit that you don't have God's Word now, not enough of it, that is, to give you what Jesus Christ came to give you. To see that PFAL is God-breathed you're going to have to first come back to it and meekly obey Dr's instructions to embrace it with the intention of mastering it, and nothing else. THEN you will see plenty of proofs as God shows you more and more. You have to be IN this Word to see God's Word and will. If that's the most important thing in your life still, then come back to PFAL and do what Dr said to do. I'm assuming that there once was a time when God's Word and will were the number one priority in your life. NOT having that priority is idolatry, and then it's impossible for God to bless you.

HCW, The number of points per page you bring up make it difficult for me to know where to start, or how to get it all done. However, I will say this for now. The extreme closeness to VPW you describe of your lifestyle for those years is the very factor that disqualifies you to credibly discern the authority which God gave to him. That same closeness ALSO gave you the valuable insights to his flesh that helped you to trounce several evil legends that have sprung up to discredit him. I've seen several such vicious rumors grow from scratch over the years. One recent one concerned his supposed racism that's been rumbling quietly for a while. You were able to effectively silence that rather quickly with your close association with him in the physical realm. But spiritually, you are unable to see that he was a chosen spokesman for God BECAUSE you were so close to him. I learned several years ago to discount all firsthand witnesses of his life when it comes to his speaking for God and teaching His Word like it has not been known since the first century. Sorry. I'm thankful for your flesh testimony. I totally reject your spiritual testimony. For the spiritual testimony, you need to earn that kind of respect from me and it's too late. It took God 27 years to teach me to trust Dr's written words, I decided to believe what God wrought in that respect, and I have locked onto what He taught me for the rest of my life. Now if you will just calm down, and slow down, I will deal one by one with the details you have thrown out. If you're not done yet, I'll wait. If you want to jump down my throat after I start with these details, then I'll know that you're not done, and I'll wait again. If your total intention is to filibuster me with details and protests and insults, then I'll collect the details and find some other way to teach the untangling of them to those who are interested in a place where you can't interrupt. If you want to learn then I can teach you a lot; not all but a lot. If you are not meek and think you already know it, I've seen before plenty who fell into that category, often times they were Corps, and I learned to not allow them to upset me. Your flesh impresses me as very smart and very energetic. Spiritually, you're nobody... yet.

You know? I'm really sick of talking about me! I also am sick of talking about what we were just talking about. Both of these patterns have been dominating lately. What do you all say we call a truce and gather our thoughts to think of more important things than me or how we all talk to each other? I've got my backlog of items from this thread that I consider important to my message. I'd like to just work on them for a while and then resurface over in the Doctrinal forum. Why don't we wrap this up here for now? Ok? Poor Galen ;)--> might want to say some more things here , seeing he started this thread. I've got to focus a little more on making a living too, while the weather's good. I know this will be thought of as a wimp out or a dodge, but I'll be accused of that no matter what I do. I'm game for a few more rounds if anyone insists, but let's think towards wrapping it up. I'd at least like to get back to the Doctrinal forum. This thread is too much resembling one of my threads and they are supposed to be in that forum. Tom Strange, what you brought up just now are the things I really want to get into. You can hold me to it.