Mike

HCW, You wrote: "I just have a pretty accurate log of memories that pop up if jogged. It not infallable, nor is it all knowing though." It's your accurate log that I appreciate. Your ability to see deeper than the facts to the truths I do not celebrate. You will need to come back to PFAL and absorb what God put in there if you want to juggle those facts into a coherent and powerful knowledge of God. I thank you for your log of memories because they help to set the fact record here a lot more straight. Yes, I know that while we agree on many of these facts, our few in number disagreements are deep and wide. I'm not trying to get a back door endorsement from you in any way. Your distance from me on them is far better noted by most posters here than are our agreements, so you need not fear my using your influence.

I'm only trying to help, honest. Someone gave me answers that clicked. They surprised me. I've embraced something bigger than me, and I see it's worth passing on to those who want to get a more compreshensive story of what happened. I'm out of time tonight, but may be back tomorrow.

alfakat, You wrote: "...Mike, YOU set YOURSELF up as the judge of ALL others here and their "diligence" (sic)...or you don't recognize or acknowledge that???!!??" I do NOT recognize your view on that here. I am merely reporting on the judgement I have seen and heard from a higher authority. I did recognize that judgement as true and fitting the facts. I recognized myself as equally guilty (if not more) with all the rest of us. Why don't you look at the detail of WHAT I'm saying, instead of rushing off into ego confrontations with me personally. Why not address the points I make instead of taking them as a personal attack? Those who are interested in making changes for the better (instead of complaining about the past) can hear good suggestions in my posts. Are you interested in seeing things better?

alfakat, I don't think we ever have met. I too lacked the diligence I speak of here back then. To this I have admitted often. You glossed over those admissions. Even now, I must drive myself daily to read things I "think" I already know enough about. My diligence wanes at times. I'm not preaching myself as a master of diligence here, merely pointing out that most of our problems were self-inflicted due to our "kicking back" in the study department. This is a very human trait that we ALL suffer from. Drifting from the True God through a lack of diligence is an oft repeated scenario in the Bible, starting with Eve. Over and over the "golden calf syndrome" is documented in the history of Israel, and the first century church.

WWS, Of course you don't really understand. True understanding only will come for those grads who return to PFAL and see what they missed. THEN you'll understand. **** And jardinero, you can close your eyes to what really happened back then all you want. Of course, when the facts are re-presented you'll have to close them again. I'm not hyping a cult, just reminding us all that we didn't get the facts right when they were offered to us, nor the truths.

WWS, I can judge collective diligence. And if you and I were to get down and discuss a few pages worth of posts, I'm sure your individual lack of diligence would proclaim itself. Mere attendance is not diligence. We ALL lacked diligence in getting the story right and getting it all. We ALL rested on our laurels of past successes, and the verbal traditions that proliferated at TWI became our doctrines. Attendance at TWI, especially in the later 70's and early 80's meant being exposed to many TVTs (Twi Verbal traditions) and these prevented many from getting the whole accurate story. God's story is big, yet many miss it.

Yes. Hear the WHOLE story right, as a diligent student, and then you won't be scammed.

Linda Z, Thank you too for your report where you wrote: "Whether there's a spiritual component to some cancers I don't know, but I checked my AC notes awhile back when this came up to see what was taught--at least the year I was there. VPW didn't teach that someone had to be possessed to get cancer; he taught that the disease is caused by a devil spirit. There's a difference. Again, I don't know if it's true, but that's what was taught when I sat through the class." Like cancer, I've often thought that smoking and homosesxuality were "caused" by devil spirits, yet I never thought that everyone who gets sucked into them is possessed. Dang! Any deadly bacterium has "life in itself" but no one thought it was a devil spirit! This (cancer = ds) idea is just one more item where students got only half the story and then went on to make up the other half.

HCW, I want to thank you again for your testimony here, especially in that long post two days ago. One of the reasons I've delayed engaging you on the relatively few points in which we disagree is because I admire so much the detail you remember and proclaim where you and I are in complete agreement. You help a lot of people here shake off the emotions and get back to the facts, those who WANT to that is.

The Father lives for, yearns for, plans for... those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

. John 4:21-24 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. .

justloafing, It takes looking in the right places.

Well said HCW! I wish I had more time to echo your comments. You too ex10. :)-->

alfakat, I also noticed that in the same breath you accused me of dodging, you dodged my question about your lack of care about others' opinions that I should stay.

alfakat, You wrote to me: " I could care less about public opinion; I am NOT taking a poll, doofus...sheesh" The correct phrase is "I could NOT care less..." or "I couldn't care less..." or "I care little..." It amazes me how sloppy and unconscious people can get in their speech and thought patterns... Sheesh!

alfakat, You have no idea what you are talking about. I offered to contribute a year ago (or more) and heard nothing in return. I asked pamsandiego about it and she said not to bother. I offered again last month or so when the pruning was going on. I asked in an e-mail "How much and where do I send it?" But again I got no answer. I then again followed up with pamsandiego and asked her if I could give her cash to pass on to management and thereby protect identities from me. When a check is cashed it is often stamped with ID, like in the endorsement. However, she said I should just wait. I can understand this. Then it also occurred to me that maybe the silence is not just to protect identity, but also (I think) to make it easier to boot me off the board should I mis-behave or something. It would be harder to ban a paying customer. If I'm right I can understand this. My posts can easily enflame many people (like YOU especially), even if I am at my best behavior. I can understand my offers being turned down. And another point: I am not mooching, nor am I advertising anything. It COSTS me to post here in precious time. I get nothing in return but lots of crap from people like you. It is a labor of love for me to try and help grads (like YOU) out of the massive deceptions that they suffer from. If you don't want help, don't read my posts. Maybe NEXT year you finally realize the true difference between the baby and the bathwater, and want to retrieve the baby you threw out. Alfakat, like your dragging me onto this site two years ago, you exhibit a most profound lack of wisdom in this matter. Your bitterness has clouded your mind and you are unable to think straight. Calm down and take a deep breath next time before you accuse me of something. You're just making a fool out of yourself. Since you are so dead wrong on this matter, does it get you thinking that maybe you jumped to concussions on other matters that stimulate your anger juices? It should.

Taxes can be sooooo boring! alfakat, Why are you so predisposed to have this site only reflect a limited number of points of view? That is sooooooooo TWI-like! Besides, last time this subject came up many rallied to keep me here. Do you dis their desires too?

I hear the IRS calling me back to my desk and papers. :(-->

Mr Ham, Many of my threads have been removed in the recent pruning process. I'd go to my saved versions for you but you don't impress me as one who wants to learn, so I decline to take the time. I may some time go over all my old posts and re-organize them into a manifesto, as many here have suggested. You'll have to wait until then. In the meantime, if you are hungering and thirsting for the knowledge that my answer(s) will give you, then you'll have to learn how to convince me that your questionere is not just a dragging of my foot but a sincer quest for truth. I though it was incomplete and sensational, reflecting a poorly thought through position, so it's not worth my time. In my recent answer (3 or 4 weeks ago) to this type of question and in your responses to it I saw that you flunked in your understanding of it. You may want to go back to it (either in Galen's PFAL thread or my proPFALL thread) and try again. Again, if you can't remember how good PFAL was back then, that indicates to me you are merely trying to annoy me and waste my time, and to present yourself as some sort of deep thinker. My responses to you are designed to be instructive to meek readers, not you. You use me for your purposes, and I use you for mine! Fair deal?

Sorry Raf. I must get back to finishing up my tax returns. Then I have to catch up a little in work, but may be back in a few.

alfakat, I was wrong and then I changed. I saw that what was in PFAL was right and that I was wrong. Don't look to me for the truth, look to what God inspired to be written in the PFAL books.

CM, I don't want to get what you have to offer. What God offers in PFAL is what I bet my life on.

def59, You wrote: "Well I am finding out what I missed with God, so I am investing time in Him, not some man-made book in mind too." Anything you come up with in that investment of time will be man-made, that is, made by YOU and you are a man. Because you are only a man, you are not able to match wits with the devil and detect any counterfeit information he slips you in your investment of time. Jesus knew this and he relied on the ACCURATE written Word he had mastered when he faced the devil. He invested his time in writings that were written by men, but supervised by God. Without PFAL you cannot discern truth from error no matter how much time you invest in a KV or NIV or whatever man has provided you. It's men who miscopied the ancient scriptures; it is men who tried to reconstruct the critical Greek manuscripts; is is men who translated them; and it is a man (you) who reads them attempting to find the True God. This process is doomed, and has not worked in 2000 years, save partially for only a very small number of very exceptional people, such as the men who taught Dr. Without God's 1942 promise and it's fulfillment in the PFAL writings, no one can enjoy the fullness of what God has to offer us.

def59, "Try us" !!!??? I often HAVE tried to present things to you. More than most, you don't read what is written. I just wrote that I did respond to this type of question both recently and several other times. I'm sure you don't remember them because you ignored my response just minutes ago. If we count up all the attacks against me and compare them with the counter-attacks that I only sometimes employ, the ratio would be 10:1 easily. Most of my dodging is to avoid wasting time. It's righteous dodging, and you can see Jesus doing it in the gospels. He also attacked (righteously) the religious leaders who were strutting around as if they know God but didn't. I often go into extremely detailed responses when I sense some meekness or when I'm sure there is a peripheral benefit. Trying to convince the unmeek is not my goal at all. Your challenges to me often give me a platform to reach those readers who are meek. Jesus coversed with the Pharisees with this same thing in mind too. I like to imitate him as much as possible.

Mr Ham, Haven't you learned anything from the gospel account of Thomas? First we believe and THEN we see. If you can't remember the results you YOURSELF got from PFAL (or if you didn't get any) you're not going to believe anything I say. If I type it, then you'd demand that I prove it, and you'd waste a lot of my time. It is an endless process that I am fully aware of and I am sure many who want to distract me are aware of too. If you are not aware of this, then I wonder if you can learn anything spiritual at all. If people don't believe Moses and the prophets (including PFAL) they wont believe if someone is raised from the dead.