Mike

rascal, You got your head in the gutter. All you can post about is sin and sex. Dr taught that it was wrong what David did with Bathsheba.

You'll have to master the books (plural) and then see if you think the same way. Jesus met his Father in book form, and knew Him ONLY in book form, until he received spirit at age 30, and then he could know Him spiritually.

And remember: heaven is not a place in the physical universe. Literal "heaven" is the air, the atmosphere above ground, dirt. Two feet off the ground is literal biblical heaven. Figures of speech mark that which is most important. Figurative "heaven" is the spiritual realm.

Well, if you like me (and thanks :)-->) then relax a little. These things take time to see. AND it takes a better atmospere in which to see them. It takes diligence and mastery. If you're patient we can get into the HUNDREDS of passages that illuminate these things. I'm not saying that there will be an end to the physical realm. I'm saying the initial actions will be spiritual and hidden from natural men. It takes junking the "left behind" thesis, along with many other traditional things.

Yeah, meanwhile back at the thread! mstar1, You asked: "Why is that so hard to get through?" I've often thought the same thing. I don't think I've discussed this with you, though, so I'll say it again. You wrote: "I got it -I took it 35 times-believe me I got it...I think most of the people here got it. Once we latched onto to what Wierwille was really saying we all left because it is completely lacking in any substance." It looks like you are talking about the film/video/tape class by your use of the words "I took it 35 times." That's NOT what I'm talking about when I refer to PFAL and mastering it. I'm NOT talking about the class. Many times here, I've pointed out that the film/video/tape class is only the FOUNDATION and not the whole structure. If all there was to PFAL was the class then I'd have to agree with you that many to most of us DID take that enough times to pretty well master it. If the film class is all there is to PFAL then you'd be correct in asserting that there's substance lacking. That substance is in the books and magazine articles. Over and over I've pointed this out here, yet hardly anyone gets it. Over and over Dr urged us to FINISH taking the class and master the written part of it, where the true substance is. The class is only an introduction to the meat in the books. Get it? Why is that so hard to get through? When it does get through you'll see that many things in the books were forgotten or slipped by us unawares. If we had worked those written materials better back then we wouldn't have been fooled by all the false doctrines the slowly grew over the years in the verbal traditions that developed. Things like the "really absent Christ" would not have taken root. People might have started yearning to have Christ formed within, the mind of Christ born within, and allowed that rotten natural man mind we all inherited to die away. God set up the books and magazine articles, gave revelation to Dr and gave revelation to Dr's editors (whether they knew it or not, HCW ;)-->) to produce the perfect writings necessary for us grads to have Christ formed within. We all got "Christ in you the hope of glory" as the token, but then we all missed the significance of "Christ in us THE GLORY." It's still only a hope for all grads who have avoided fully receiving PFAL... in written form. When the writings were nearly completed in 1982, Dr taught at Living Victoriously how Abraham turned hope into believing by receiving and believing special revelation God gave him. He then said that the special revelation for believing for the return of Christ had already been given to us. This is in LV, but by then most were asleep and didn't see that the Times were a changin' right under our noses... like a thief in the night! A new administration coming in for those who were ready for it. Now I KNOW you didn't hear any of this in the film class! None of this was available in 1967 when that was made. It took time for God to get all of His Word into written form that's addressed to us grads. Another benefit to mastering the written form of the class is being able to recognize Christ at his coming. It won't be his fingerprints, driver's license, or DNA that will proove his identity to us. He is the Word made flesh, and it's only by mastering PFAL (written form) that we grads will recognize him in the early stages of his presence. Most grads are still at a kindergarten understanding regarding these things. Most think that they will know it's him and that it's time for the gathering when they notice their feet are not on the ground but at some high altitude above sea level. This is not what is taught in the books. In the writtein form of PFAL we learn that just like Jesus Christ is NOT ABSENT spiritually, we will rise spiritually to meet him; NOT physically but spiritually. We will meet him NOT in the physical air, but spiritually in the God-breathed air, the written revelations of PFAL. A point that IS made in the film class, but few get it, is that there is (or rather "was" in 1967) no authoritative written Word of God in the world. There were ancient mis-copied fragments, worldly-scholarly assemblages of the fragments, and man-made translations, but nothing authoritative. Just like punctuation, verse divisions, and chapter headings are devoid of authority, so are the critical Greek texts and all their translations and versions. We were taught in Session Three that no translation, let alone a version is the ultimate Word of God. Most grads never got this. Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times. God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in writtin form. As PFAL was gradually put into "book an magazine form" over the years 1971-85, reliance on our KJV was less and less emphasized by Dr and the more he urged us to master PFAL...not the film class but it's written form. Get it?

I too have work to attend to. There may come a day when I have enought time to sort through all my past posts. I may then re-post how I've answered this in the past. Until then I prefer that we not talk about people, but what we were taught and how we didn't get it all. No one is going to get what I'm talking about until they return to PFAL, the written form, and study it with meekness. When people see what they missed in those written materials they will know what kind of blessings God has in store for us all. My focus is not on me, Dr, or on any others but on Christ. THAT is my main blessing. In spite of my flaws I've seen him. This won't mean anything to anyone until they too have seen him who is the Word made flesh.

Before I put a lot of work into answering that kind of question I have to know it's not going to be a waste of time. I wonder if posters who ask it even know what it is they are asking. What kind of an answer would effect a change? No matter what I said it would be rejected. Right? This is my question to the questioners: DO YOU DENY THAT YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO SET ME UP AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF PAYING ATTENTION TO THE ANSWER?

It's a fair question, but the answers that I've posted before were not treated fairly.

We've been over that question many times before, and all of my responses were forgotten or ignored. If I were to answer it again it would not be believed.

rascal, You say you're blessed. You don't sound like it.

Here's an example of some good to focus on that I just passed on to poster via e-mail. Earlier in this thread there were some of the now standard objections posted to the idea of the "absent Christ." Posters here often complain that we were not taught properly on this idea of an absent Christ. Last night I was reading an old Way Magazine and hit upon another of the many items that seemed to slip by us in earlier days. I've noticed that with me and many others, by the time the 80's arrived Dr's teachings were being relatively ignored. By then we felt that we had gotten as much as he had to offer, but ironically, that was a time when he was desparately attempting to help us fine tune our understanding. The magazine I was reading last night is the Sept/Oct 1983 issue. By this time most eyes were on Craig and Dr was kind of out to pasture in many minds. In the article Dr teaches II Cor. 5:18, which says: "And all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation." He then goes on to elaborate with: "Ladies and gentlemen, then who today has the ministry of reconciliation? The believers. You and I. Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at the right hand of God. He is not physically present upon earth as he was for some thirty years. But Jesus Christ still is present here upon earth in every born-again believer. He is multiplied as many times as there are believers with God in Christ in them. Those people in whom he dwells have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation." It's so simple and accurate what we were taught about the difference between physical absence and spiritual absence. Yet this simple truth was either forgotten by most or it never registered in the first place. There are many more refinements to the class like this that we missed. It was only the FOUNDATIONAL class, but many of us stopped learning there. I'm for resuming my learning of what God taught Dr and Dr taught us. rascal, why don't you focus on the gentleness and love of that Christ within. You will be blessed.

rascal, You seem to think (as well as others) that God will NOT even the score, so you must help him. Why do you think that God says "Vengence is mine. I will repay." ??? You seem to be totally unaware of the rotten heart you too inherited. A person can follow a lot of external rules, like the Pharisees, and yet not get that rotten heart set right at all. You are so focused on the sins of others that you are blind to how you are FURTHER poisoning your own heart every day with vile words. How do you think the adversary seduced so many TWI leaders into doing evil? Answer: by getting them to focus on the wrong things. You become what you focus on. There's a lot of good that can be focused on from our days at TWI. Why do you reject the good?

rascal, You don't get it. We all have inherited from Adam a heart that's desperately evil above all things. You're looking at specifics, and I'm talking about generalities. If you were in a great position of power, and you weren't getting your way, sooner or later you'd resort to whatever would work for you. The specifics don't matter to me. We all commit the greatest sin of failing to love God first and foremost. You're quibbling about much lesser sins. If it weren't for Christ you'd be doomed. Until you see that you'll never be able to forgive others like Jesus did and taught we should do too.

Remember that God is not mocked and no one gets away with cheating on Him or hurting His people. I trust God to even all scores. I reject all of man's (and women's) attempts to even the scores, and that's what most posters are attempting to do here with a lot of bad mouthing of others.

Certainly in recent decades the slogans that were bandied about got all convoluted. However, many original ones were well grounded in truth. I took great comfort in (and still do) that IN SPITE of people's flaws (leaders and followers) we were given something perfect that transcended people's flaws. Remember that God is not mocked and no one gets away with cheating on Him or hurting His people. I trust God to even all scores. I reject all of man's (and women's) attempts to even the scores, and that's what most posters are attempting to do here with a lot of bad mouthing of others. Every poster here shares the same human flaws as leaders of TWI. The main difference is that rarely did any of the posters here have the power to inflict those flaws on others. Now, with the power of the internet, many jump in to exercise that newfound power and more graphically inflict their flaws on others. The score that's being evened is not God's justice. We flawed people should be very thankful that, in spite all of our flaws, God gave something flawless to us. Of course we have to closely examine what He gave us to see it. The decision as to what we focus on is the epitome of free will, and the most important kind of decision we can make. There's no peace in grinding an axe, and it's only in peace that good decisions can be made.

CW, It's not the differences I dislike, it's the negative emotions that go along with it all. The fact that I read this site and it's precursors for years, and then jumped in for over 4000 posts should tell you that I'm not afraid of differences. I've posted here many times that all throught the 70's and even a little in the 80's I went to trinitarian churches and listened to their side. I always loved witnessing, and on the street I always encounter diferences. In the poetry circles I hang out nearly everyone is of a completely differing perspective than me. I think you've not been paying very close attention to my posts, or your retention of their content is poorly motivated. This speaks loud to the way you paid attention and/or retained the contents of Dr's books. If you come back to PFAL you will see that you not only got me wrong in this situation, but your whole perspective on the contents of PFAL will be wonderfully and positively upgraded.

WaferNot!, If you were to return to the contents of the PFAL books I think you'd see that the situation is not the one your limited template of expectations (typical co-dependency) is capable of perceiving. Paraphrasing Corinthians: Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered into man's imagination, the good things God has prepared for those who love Him.

I'm so tired of fighting on all fronts. I may retire to private communications altogether.

Ouch!!! :(--> Well, maybe Pawtucket could set up a proPFAL forum here. TWI is probably afraid of him and GSC.

Song, Well, thank you. I've been wanting to have some friendly talk with you.

Song, Is that a "hello" wave or a "good-bye" wave? Actualy I think I know which it is. ;)-->

Belle, My great respect for the written words in PFAL came only very recently, in 1998, and long after I had left TWI. From 1971 to his death, I kept quite a distance between me and vpw. I was suspicious and cautious. I was exposed to the sex scandals of TWI ten years before most others, so I had a lot of time to quietly think about it all. I saw few around me engaging in such meditation, and saw many respecting vpw in inappropriate ways. I wanted no part of it. When I would read the collaterals I'd not transfer to my Bible's wide margin any notes until I had checked things out in other ways. Some topics were on my list of not-yet-accepted items for may years. At times I wished I could join the others and just believe everything, but I had to go my slow cautious pace. I felt it was my duty to check out all the doctrine before accepting it BECAUSE it was being so ravenously swallowed whole by so many others. My suspicion levels varied from year to year. In my first two years it was relatively low. It went up and down several times over the decades. By 1997 my suspicion level was at it's peak, and I frequently found myself very angry at Dr and was getting close to "chucking the whole thing." It wasn't until I returned to the books in 1998 that I started thinking the way I do now. The contents of that written material, and the guidance of a wonderful believer, are what got me to change my attitude. That's the doctrinal side. Now for the practical. From the start I was very impressed with field leadership. However, as I got close to them, I quickly started seeing that many did not measure up to the standards set in God's Word. I was reading about the negatives regarding men of God in the Bible and could see negatives in the personal lives of not a few leaders around me. I felt at the time that this may simply be a maturity thing, and expected them to change for the better. I was wrong. It got worse. There is a passage in GMWD that I became VERY familiar with. It's in Chapter Six (interesting number) titled "Followers of Us." With MY bold face fonts, but with Dr's italicized fonts, the following passage can be seen: "As people get into the truth of God’s Word, it takes time for them to jell its greatness to the point that they walk on it. They need time to mature in God’s household and in the knowledge of His Word. In doing this they are to imitate the examples set by the men and women of God who are responsible to lead them. This does not mean that we take on our leaders’ idiosyncrasies and faults. It means that as we learn principles in God’s Word, we imitate those men and women as we see them practice the truth. It is a family learning situation, a growing experience. We learn from those who have been practicing the principles of God’s Word longer than we have. In doing this we become more and more perfected in His Word. We become more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ. In turn, as God’s children, we become more and more like our Heavenly Father, for we are learning to walk in the perfection to which He has called us. That is the pattern. We imitate the lives of those whom God has set in His household as leaders and overseers. They then imitate the Lord Jesus Christ by walking faithfully on God’s Word. As all of us do this, we are imitating the source of that Word, God. Paul sets this pattern of imitation very clearly in the first letter to the Corinthians." I applied this passage to the best of my ability in all my interactions with leadership. If people close to upper leadership had done the same then maybe things would be different now. It's not too late to apply the good doctrine we were given and throw off the bad practices we were exposed to. In doing so we who are able to do this now will set the pace for others to do it and EVENTUALLY we will be in a much better position to help those who were hurt. If we don't become Jesus Christ men and women, and rise up to HIS level and ability to handle great hurts, then our friends and relatives who were hurt do not have much of a chance. Right now I don't see much healing taking place. Those of us who have the heart to brush off the negative factors are the only ones who will BECOME the true and effective positive factors in the lives of those who hurt.

rascal, Don't you really mean to say "Keep my handle OUTTA your damn posts." ??? ;)-->

To everyone, I've been posting a lot less this year, slowly wrapping up my presentations here and moving back into private one-on-one interactions. Please remember that I was literally dragged onto this board without my consent a few years ago. I don't like all the huge confrontations that go on. Lorna Dune's long post yesterday reminded me of how wonderfully we all COULD be interacting. The topic of this thread is the proPFAL website that is up and running, and I may soon be shifting my focus and posting there. I feel there is still unfinished business here, though, but my time and energy are less these days for the knock down drag out affairs I seem to often find myself in here. We've several times discussed the differences between Free Speech forums and Focused Speech forums. It seems that because of the vast confusion and many perplexing situations surrounding twenty years of TWI activities, and the over-controled speech traditions from which we came, this board was set up to allow just about any kind of legal speech, and I think rightly so. This board is so free in what it allows to be posted the EVEN I am allowed to be here. I realize I'm a ringer here, and have often expressed my thanks to Pawtucket for his stand on such freedom of expression. Rafael has set up a Focused Speech forum and I have defended his right to do so. I'm not sure how TB wants to run his board, but I suspect he is leaning towards the Focused Speech too. In focused arenas a different kind of freedom emerges: freedom from distraction. I may be soon seek such refuge. I have had a great opportunity to present a vast amount material here that can help readers make more informed decisions. Still, I feel frustrated in that there is still so much more to present, and many fine tunings on what I have posted, sometimes rashly, as per WordWolf recent piece on posting/editing techniques. My thinking is progressing along lines of possibly doing that finishing up process on TB's site, if it turns out that his evolving ground rules will allow it. If I take this turn, I want to know how people here feel about my using their GSC handles and quoting from their posts. Like I say, my aim is to NOT antagonize. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts after yesterday's marathon, sleeping on all that was said, and then seeing this morning's posts.

rascal and Catcup, I am very unhappy that things went the way they did in the ministry and that many grads did bad things. I wish Dr had been the man he knew to be, but that's to late. It's not too late for us living grads, though, to get it right. I don't think I have it all right, and neither do you folks. I don't think you are helping the victims you think you are helping by your rejection of PFAL. These are very delicate issues, and if I were in your shoes I might be rejecting PFAL even more than you do now. Somehow, I have been able to come back to PFAL, and finally brush off the hurts that blockaded me from the light God had put into written form there. Because I see God's hand on my life in this matter, stretching back long before I ever even heard of PFAL, I clearly feel it's my duty in life to help others come back and see this light. I do not wish to antagonize anyone who is in a hurtful position regarding these matters.