Mike

I can agree to that. I am here to learn also. */*/*/*/* I don't believe God lies, and I believe He operates by rules we can't fathom. "My ways are not your ways..." is written. Now the laws of physics are an interesting matter for you to bring up. We could talk a long time about this, but I'll keep it brief. I see the laws of physics as man-made approximations of the physical side of God's setup, which is the natural, 5-senses side, and that these man-made laws are completely blind to the spiritual realm. It is a wonder, though, how much we CAN get to know of this side. But we only get to know tiny glimpses of the spiritual side. And these glimpses would have to come from, and fit with the scriptures. I am proposing in this thread that one such glimpse could be what I have described as a limitation on the interventions between the physical and the spiritual, for the purpose of limiting the devil’s ability to mess things up and hurt people. The limitation can be seen (if you squint a little) in two patterns, which are lightly sprinkled in scripture. The first pattern is the limitation on the amount of “spiritualities” can flow through an intervention. Don’t ask me what the spiritualities are or mean. Answers like that are not in this glimpse. Like when Elisha asked Elisha for a double portion of spirit, what the heck does THAT mean??? We don’t know. The scriptures don’t tell us that, but they do want us to know about the double whammy part. And please don’t ask me what whammies are. The scripture pattern of this is seen in the uses of finite measures, like Elisha did in his request. The second pattern is the limitation on the time that the “whatevertheyare” can flow by way of the intervention. The scripture pattern of this limitation is double spikes on a flat background on the timeline. */*/* Personally, I get a sense of “flow” from the root “vent” in the word “intervention.” The first pattern I have not supplied any scriptures for, except the Elisha one just now. They are coming. I just wanted to respond to some comments, and then I will get back to converting them from unreadable to readable. The second pattern I did supply, and it keeps growing. I found another addition today. */*/* It really is funny how committed you are to rejecting this hunch of mine, even before the first batch of scriptures you and the others were committed. Not just gently biased against it, but fully committed. LoL It put on a good show for the Read-Only Audience at home, who happen to favor this hunch. Then I posted my first list, and there was not the tiniest dent in the total bias, with more pure rejection of every point. LoL I’m laughing, but not surprised, because that is why I brought it here. I knew I’d get a maximally critical audience. This would be the acid test of my hunch. This way I get to see where my argument is weak and where it’s strong. I learn which ways of expressing things works better. Did you notice that I didn’t use the two analogy words “doors” or “budget” at all in my descriptions of the two patterns a few paragraphs above? You had attached a lot of your bias commitment on those two words, so I thought I’d try another approach. I wanted to respond to as many comments as I could today. In bits and pieces I am getting the second list of scriptures ready to post.

I did not portray him that way. That was you preconceived picture before you read that post. I see him as a confident, law abiding judge who know how to work justice within the law. That is how you would look at the secular judge that I described in that post, but your bias prevents you from looking at my depiction the same way.

I did do that already with one verse, where God limited the devil from killing Job. Does that count for you?

Yikes! You are really missing my points. What I was showing had nothing to do with who won a particular skirmish or battle. It has to do with the isolation IN TIME that the major interactions occur. Next time I will include that omitted verse. I was only trying to cut down on the length of my post.

Tell me how it would alter it. I was under the impression it was irrelevant to my point.

Please expand this for me. It is a little too compact for me to follow the details.

You found another passage lacking cherry. But not an anti-cherry passage. I am not saying this is a law that happens in the writing of scripture. I am saying this is a law that happens in the real life. Some scriptures seem point out the double spikes; some do not.\ The latter are the "lacking cherry" verses. (remember cherry comes from me accused of cherrypicking)

Yes, I did leave it out. I didn't feel I needed to include it. Everyone know what happened. It was the double spike in power that I was showing.

The devil's presence in Eden implies God allowed him to be there. Otherwise, had God forbidden it, we'd see a major failure of His power. */*/* The double presence of God and the serpent imply the door for the serpent being open. I gave half of the documentation days ago. The other half is being converted from old notes to something you can easily read.

So far, with the Double Doors scripture list, I showed that God's self imposed limitations are TIMEWISE. By that, I mean the major interactions are short spurts in time, or peaks, where door opens and then closes. That is a time budget, as opposed to the doors always open. Soon I will post the budgetary verses where the total AMOUNT of "juice" is budgeted. That is a "juice" budget, as opposed to an infinite amount. */*/* Here the juice is an analogy for something "quantity" in the spiritual realm, and not the measurable physical realm. An example would be where Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of spirit. That is measured, and limited, and not infinite. In contrast, Jesus was given the spirit without measure.

I see this in the courtroom scene in the Book of Job portrays God as a judge. The devil plays a role similar to a prosecutor. After hearing the devil's case we see an odd thing. God seems to rule in the devil's favor, and then seems to give Job over to the devil for torture. A number of religious people I have discussed this passage with insist that God is good and His handing over Job therefor had to be good. I could never accept that, in the light of God being light and in Him is no darkness at all. If this were a secular courtroom, and a judge did that kind of action, we could expect the judge to possibly say something like "My hands are tied. Based on the testimony and evidence, I am constrained by the law to rule this way." That is how I see God saying "Behold, all that he has is in thy power." I hear it in a sense of, "YIKES !!!, all that he has is in thy power." God reluctantly gave Job over to the adversary; His ruling was against His will. However, He was sharp to see that He could draw the line, and demand that Job’s life be spared. God was fighting for Job, but He was limited to the laws He had set up. Later, after God had successfully taught Job to believe rightly, God was able to have His will be done, and Job was restored. But there was that temporary time where God’s will on Earth was thwarted. That is one area of scripture where I see God being limited, due to His own wise and just doing. */*/* This is very similar to how God cannot lie. God cannot go against His own Word. God cannot go against His own laws. */*/* Daniel chapter 9 is another passage where God’s angels are clearly limited and hindered, but still winning in the end.

When I heard things from VPW on God being limited, it sounded like I should check it out in the Bible. I found many places where it seemed to be saying that God indeed has done it this way, where He makes the rules, and He abides by them Himself. I lean on the many scriptures that indicate that while this spiritual war wages, things are not always like theology want it to be. How do you handle Daniel chapter 9 and the obvious limitation and hindrances on the angels. I take that as God playing by His rules. But God is smarter with His budget than the devil is with his. God had foreknowledte and the devil doesn't. So God ALWAYS wins where He sets out to do something. People may lose things at times, even their lives. But God's purposes are never frustrated. God's ways are not our ways. He seems to tell us in the scriptures that He has limitation in this spiritual war, but it is only temporary. At Christ's return things will change. Right now we pray in hope "Thy will be done, one earth as it is in heaven." I think your theology is so skiddish about over doing on devils that you refuse to acknowledge the reality that the devil is god of this world, that the universe is broken, that God's will is not done on earth most often. We were born behind enemy lines and that means limitations. You can't defuse my arguments by saying I got them from VPW. I worked a lot of these things for 50 years with my KJV and I don't care what theology says.

Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.

Hi Oldiesman. I noticed on another thread that you were briefly discussing believing and Hebrews 11, as we have been here. Can you compare what you said about the other factors being involved in the process, along with the law of believing, with what I said here? It sounds like we are saying the same thing, if you read the clip below: This was a summary of what I was saying earlier in this thread about how in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation. I think this is how we were taught the law of believing: in isolation and elimination all the other forces. Later we were to add the other forces into our perspective to make it match everyday reality better. */*/* BTW, the thread where oldiesman's post appeared was: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25455-religion-demands-acceptance-of-the-unprovable/#comment-631038

Show me how the verse on Cain opposes my hunch by simply lacking mention of both doors.

Show me now Cain is anti-cherry, or negates my hunch. That's proof #1 I want to see from you. God does seem to point out the equal access He and the devil had in the Garden. That is always a question people have. God answers it in Genesis there, and also in the Book of Job with the devil having an equal say in the courtroom analogy. But to say that God has to point it out in EVERY instance of an major assertion. Got any proof or scriptures to back that up? If that were true there would be a lot of "principle clutter" clogging up the intervention passages.

I just explained to WordWolf the subtle difference between anti-cherry verses and verses lacking cherry.

I agree. I am just slow at doing all that. I thought I'd have the scriptures. If I were cherry picking I'd be avoiding verses that somehow negate my hunchy thesis. Let's call these verses "anti-cherry" verses. But to present a verse that simply does not contain all the info as to what is going on would not qualify as an anti-cherry. It would be a verse that simply chose to emphasize other things. These verses would simply be verses that lack cherry. This is a subtle point.

You didn't get the essence of my cherry picking denial. But no matter. No, what I am doing is NOT intellectually dishonest. Had I started this thread and said this is the truth, and I can prove it, and then I proceed as I have been, then THAT would be intellectually dishonest. But I did not start this thread that way. I said it was a loose and wobbly hunch, and hardly a theory, and that I am working some of it out as I go. Did you not get that at the beginning of the thread? Did you not see me repeat all that several times throughout the thread? You, sir, are the one being intellectually dishonest to hold me to that standard after I repeatedly said it was not up to that standard. Maybe you should re-read the whole thread, including my answers to all the others, and that way you wont miss so much. THAT would be honest of you. But to take pot shots... very dishonest of you. */*/*/* While I was gone I drew a hot bath to relax in and ponder life. As I was getting in I noticed the water level rising. It would rise in proportion to the amount of my body was submersed in the water. Then when I would rise out of the water, the water level would sink proportionately. I suddenly exclaimed Eureka !!! The devil's move at the time of the Ascension, was to get Judas to commit suicide! The devil was hedging his bets, and only went after the weakest apostle. He was still reeling, having lost the big enchilada bet a month before. Then God closes the door for another 10 days and Pentecost blows him away that now there were 12 Christ like beings to deal with, while before there was only one. Game changer. No devil moves on Pentecost. Back to the old drawing board for a while.

Quit thinking I am presenting this as polished and perfected. Some of your questions I have not thought about yet, so I am attempting my best. I may want to retract some things. Try to picture help me by finding verses that fit the pattern. I have no idea about Cain. You can feel fee to research it, but why not wait to see if this hunchy theory fills out in time? Help me find good examples of double doors. I see the new list as embracing scriptures that have finite measure stated, as opposed to infinite. In other words limited amounts. I am still working on the next list.

No, I wondering if that should be included in the open door at the resurrection. Plus, think about it. The devil just hit him with his best shot, and 3 days later Jesus is up again. I can see both God keeping the door open another 50 days, and the devil simultaneously stunned enough to not act.

Well, if it is any consolation to you, at the end of his life he told us to master the foundational and intermediate classes, and he did it twice in the same teaching. Conspicuously missing twice is the Advanced Class in those final instructions. I think he knew some of what he gave us was gold, and some was still in the learning stages? maybe? What I am posting here is still in my learning stages. I got the impressions over the years I need not pay the highest attention to his Advanced Class and his many teachings to the Corps, now very available in grad circles. He needed room to try out things, to practice things. He need the room to be wrong. I do the same. I may be wrong about this, or I may have some right and some wrong. I see different reasons for him doing the ACs, but that's ok with me. It could have been a mixture of both.

Did you read my answers to the others, per chance? I said the scriptures on limitations in amount of intervention are yet to be posted. I am working on that list. The list of scriptures that I did post had to do with limitations in time. I said it better to So_crates. I think it was him. */*/*/* In the book of Job, God portrays Himself as a judge presiding over a court. The court enforces the rules that God set up prior to everything. God constructed the court and it's rules. This is all implied by the scenery in Job. The judge (God) had previously set a limit (hedge) on the devil, that had been protecting Job and his family. But the devil mocks that, and politely demands (rightfully) that the hedge be lifted, according to the rules of the court. At this point I see God is limited and merely observes that the devil now owned Job to mess with him. "Behold! All that he has is in your power." But then the Judge sees that protecting Job's life is still available to Him, and He says so in His ruling. That whole courtroom scene depicts God being limited in ways we don't understand, because it is in the spiritual realm, and a bit beyond our immediate grasp. So to teach us a tiny bit on how this complicated (to us) spiritual world works He uses a courtroom analogy to help us understand what we need to know. (did you see me explaining my analogies to the others?) */*/*/* The whole reason I think this crazy hunch of mine COULD BE worthwhile is because it teaches us to be persistent in prayer, and never give up. Jesus teaches this very thing with the widow that persistently petitioned the judge for relief. Just because the prayer with believing didn't work one time, it's still worth persisting. God's limitations are always temporary. In the near future the limitations will be gone. I think persistence in believing is like having persistence in forgiving. How many times should we ask God AGAIN with believing and trust that He knows what He is doing? Should we do it seven times? No, verily verily, I say unto thee: seventy times seven times! I tried to say that with a Jesus accent. How'd I do? */*/* It is an odd coincidence to me that my whole theory on minFW is that persistence pays off.

Right. The limitations in amount of power are yet to be posted. What I posted, under the door analogy, were twin peaks on a relatively flat background, which are limitations in time. Short bursts of power.

Well thanks for the summary. I would have assumed that the special knowledge they had in mind was Jesus raised from the dead. If it was something else, and to the exclusion of the resurrection, then they sound like hooky pook, and not worth my time.