Mike

That post immediately above this one was NOT mine. Some conterfeit posted it in my place!

Oh... I hate when that happens. :D--> But I really do LIKE it when I'm exposed as a doubletalking dodger!

WOW! Now we're talking about something REALLY important. My comment was ADDRESSED TO you. My comment was FOR THE BENEFIT of irisheyes only. Now, let's see if there are any other extremely pressing matters to tend to...

Ok... then they ARE commands! :D-->

Raf, You wrote: "I neither requested nor care for your opinion on how I approached those verses, nor do I accept you as an authority on whether my approach was right, wrong, close, on the mark, off the mark, on the wall, off the wall, 99 bottles of beer on the wall, etc." Calm down there, buddy. :)--> My comment was for the benefit of irisheyes only. You have my permission to ignore it. Don't worry about it. Try to forget it. Try thinking about something else. Count to ten. Whistle a happy tune. These are only suggestions and not to be considered commands.... OK? :D-->

Raf, You're right on in your approach to the verses. You're also right that I have a set agenda. Where you may be disappointed is in how intense the fray will get here.

irisheyes, You wrote: "...let's get back to the original question--what those verses in Matthew mean. So far I've gotten nothing that can help me." One way I often deal with difficult questions it to try and imagine what would satisfy me. I have asked questions similar to yours and slowly realized that NOTHING could satisfy me in the sense that every source I could find would have the same problem as mine: how do THEY know for sure. the only way out is to find an AUTHORITATIVE source. My authoritative source is not the GMIR article, although it does give me more rest in my decision to not pay a lot of attention to the verses in question as presented in the KJV and most of the ancient texts. The broad picture I received in PFAL is what I rely on. I just consulted JCOP and see that there is more that can be learned there. *** You wrote: "And yes, I do realize Death is the enemy, the last enemy to be destroyed, how does that resolve the Matthew ? " Timing. The conquering of death is future. If there was a partial conquering of death for some like those verses (as we have them in KJV) indicate, then AT BEST it had to be temporary, like Lazarus being raised, and a few others. But there's no followup on them. Acts says that David is not raised, but still in his grave. Why didn't HE get up in that earthquake? If those verses are in any way part of the originals, they raise more questions than anything else. They don't fit with many things in your KJV. They don't fit with PFAL. *** You wrote: "And straight up let me say that I believe God's bigger than the devil and He has the ability to protect His Word for us." Yes, and he does it HIS way not ours. In the OT we can see several times where His written Word was NOT protected but was lost or damaged greatly. God would then restore His Word for those who wanted it. It was originally written in the stars, and then lost. God re-issued it in a completely different format to Moses. It was lost under temple debris in its destruction prior to Jeremiah's time and he later found it. Also, one of the scrolls Jeremiah wrote by revelation was cut up by a king and burned. God re-issued it to Jeremiah with many words added. It was lost in the first century as all forsook God's man, Paul. God re-issued it again to Dr in PFAL, again in a different format and with many words added. God's physical written Word has been given to us grads, and we can sell it on e-Bay or burn it. I choose to master it like we were instructed to in Dr's last teaching, in defiance of all the top leadership's reaction to those instructions. The degree of sureness you can find from someone else is limited to the degree they are sure and their sources, and so on ad infinitum, as long as you stay in the senses realm. Who else out there even claims to have THE only sure source? I have found 90 places where Dr makes such a claim. I place my bet with PFAL.

Hi irisheyes, It's looking like I'll never get out of here. Give me a few minutes to cool off in the shower and I'll try to respond.

Raf, I saw the short post of irisheyes that had slipped by me and decided to answer it. When the situations changes the guidance many change too. I'm simply not into the big marathons where sex and plagiarism are the focus. THAT stuff I'm still avoiding here. THAT stuff had been beat into the ground. For someone who hasn't seen all the posts that can help in unscrambling those areas I prefer now to do it by e-mail or phone now. Even those preferences can change, though.

Tom, We can't know all that you are asking. God must step in or we're doomed. My bet is to believe that God already did step in and gave us PFAL. My course of action is to open those books a lot. What's yours? (How am I ever goig to get out of here? Maybe by turning off my computer!)

irisheyes, In reading through the posts I discovered a short one of yours that had slipped by me unawares. You wrote: "Oh, please . . . . How do you know it's revelation?" God has to teach us. We have to put ourselves in the best position possible to receive that teaching. I am firmly convinced that the written forms of PFAL are that gift from God to help us recognize God's direct voice. How do we recognize a friend's voice on the phone? From hearing it a lot. How do we know it's not an good vocal impersonator on the phone? From the way such an impersonator would eventually drift from the kind of personality we already know to be in our friend. If God doesn't give us a method to learn His voice and personality we can never know what is revelation from Him and what is not. Proverbs 3:5,6 helps me here: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." It's God's responsibility to teach us His voice. The only viable candidate for God's package to teach us this I can see is PFAL. I place my bet on it and work it. That's all we can do, is place our best bet and then work in that direction. *** If it is possible for God to get through to us, then it's only logical that He already got through to others. Whatever he taught them should be useful in our search. As far as His teachings to the ancients, your original post here led us to discuss the many problems associated with that approach. As far as any of God's prior moves in modern times, and in English, the only viable candidate that inspires me to place my bet is PFAL. There is no way we can eliminate the uncertainty when we place this bet. We can't know everything for sure and then act. If we want surety bad enough, we'll act on what we can. And if it turns out to be wrong, then we'll just do it again somewhere else, in spite of the previous loss. I am convinced that we haven't finished doing it the first time with PFAL. We drifted from that. The essence of a lot of my posting is that we only sampled the written forms of PFAL, got some partial results, and then all hell broke loose. I place my bet on doing what ALL the clergy and top leadership did NOT do and I take Dr's final instructions seriously. Dr's final teaching implies that we had not finished receiving all that is written in PFAL, and that much more awaits us there. When I came back to PFAL I quickly found that Dr was right and that I had NOT absorbed all that it offers. This encouraged me to press on, and the discovery process continued. I encourage all other grads to try the same. *** Now, my second wind is gone, and I'm drenched in sweat. Time to seek some cool shelter. Now Raf has a lot more entertainment to look at.

Tom, I'm still tired from last night and e-mailing today, plus it's hotter than Hades here in my apartment right now, so I'm not well able to unscramble the situation you brought up beyond this: Nancy's hardresser probably would not find a cookie in Daddy's cookie jar and would be doomed to the uncertainties of sense knowledge and NOT really knowing for sure. I say "probably" because I can't forsee much a great need for her to know. If there WAS such a need, then she might receive revelation, but it's unlikely even in this situation unless she was a grad and had obeyed Dr's final instructions to master written PFAL. (THERE! I said it! Are you happy now Raf? :D--> )

Tom, Ok. It was very late last night when I composed that. I may have written it in a way that was mis-leading, so I withdraw my suspicion. Sorry. I'll look at it again and see if I can clarify it.

Hello irisheyes, Back to your stated dilemma of how to know for sure. Here's a couple of ideas to help you decide. First of all, you mentioned you are looking into the phenomenon of death a lot. If you have preconceived notions of how that all works, or you strongly desire to see it turn out a certain way, you'll probably be able to find satisfying evidence somewhere to support such a desire. I suggest you resist this flow, though, as much as possible. Here's one way to get a handle on those verses. Ask yourself the question: "And THEN what happened?" Why would such a momentus event as public resurrections be mentioned, and then no follow up? The best way, 5-senses wise, to look at those verses is to see how they need to fit in with what IS followed up on in the scriptures regarding the same topic. If you are not totally familiar with I Corinthians 15, I suggest you start there. That entire chapter is handled in Volume IV of the collaterals, "God's Magnified Word" in the last chapter "The Final Victory." In there you'll see the timing of things. The LAST enemy that is destroyed is death. We were taught that the one unclear verse must fit in with the abundance of clear verses or it couldn't be God's Word.

Tom Strange, You wrote: "why would "the True God" bother him/her self giving you revelation about the color of Nancy's hair?" I think you may be mixing metaphors, or something like it. The hairdresser thing was just to demonstrate the near-infinite complexity of human affairs, and the lack of 5-senses surety whenever humans are involved. From all that's gone down in prior years, I suspect you are joking here, and your confusion is feigned. If you're serious then I urge you to re-think it. *** On a seemingly more serious note you wrote: "So Mike... if it's "only by revelation" why do you need "careful application of a simple method" (or is that simple method you refer to revelation?)..." The answer is contained in my text. We do our part; God does His part. It's much like SIT, where we move our lips, throat and tongue... WE make the sounds, but God supplies the words. When I wrote that it's "only by revelation" I did not mean the only actions involved are God's. I meant the only way success in surety can happen is if God steps in and does His part. We can do our part and reach up into God's cookie jar until we're blue in the face and total surety will not emerge if there's no cookie in there. *** Raf, I may disappoint you. Not only SHOULD this thread's topic focused on irisheyes' intended topic, but I am also very weary of the usual topics we've beat to death for over two years. For the past month or more I've been in PT area slowly getting down pieces of the manifesto I have often been urged here to produce. I'm also doing a lot of e-mail and phone discussions with individuals who are more interested in focusing on the details of my proposed topics than the usual ones I get bogged down in with you and many others here. So far I've done a pretty good job of not bringing up my usual topics on this thread and on the public forums, although I may do so once the forum upgrade takes place if it can be done in a manner that doesn't stir up so much animosity and activity that I said I'm weary of.

But how DO you know anything for SURE? It's a question few want to bother with. It can give you a bigger headache than "Why does a mirror reverse left and right, but not up and down?" *** It's an interesting question to study in the sense of: how have various people dealt with this question in the past? In specialized fields, this question can pop up in a limited context, limited to that specific field. For example, in the field of hair dressing how do you know for sure that Nancy dyes their hair? They say only her hairdresser knows for sure, but how? Well if her hairdresser is the one who dyes it, that might be one way for the hairdresser to know for sure. But what if Nancy gets it dyed somewhere else? How would her hairdresser know for sure THEN? Now it gets a little more complicated, but if Nancy is getting here hair cut, her hair dresser get's a real close look at her roots. That's a possible way to know FOR SURE, or at least somewhat sure. But what if Nancy always gers her hair dyed a few hours before getting her hair cut? Now it gets a lot more complicated. Let's throw in the possibility of Nancy having an identical twin sister, Natalie. This twin always gets her hair cut at Nancy's hairdresser whenever Nancy wants to have a six month or year fling with dyed hair. Well, the hairdresser can fingerprint Nancy at every hair cutting session. How many more permutations of contortion can we come up with to asses the "sureness" her hairdresser can have of Nancy's hair dying proclivities? *** I've studied (off and on) the field of Quantum Physics for over 40 years. It's been a passion, a life long hobby. It's actually a lot simpler than the hairdesser example. In 1905, Physics was in a state of chaos. It had been very successful for about a hundred or two hundred years, but towards the ending of the 1800's a bunch of anomalies erupted. Lots of new things were discovered that didn't make any sense, and seemed to defy a bunch of things they PREVIOUSLY were seemingly very sure about. It's a real drama that piled up for many years prior to 1905. In the next 30 years this field went from a state of total un-surety, to the highest surety level of surety in anything man has ever done, with the help of Einstein and a hundreds others almost as smart as he. Sometimes the surety levels in Quantum Physics can reach a level where a theoretical prediction matches a laboratory measurement to 5 decimal places. In 70 years no theoretical prediction has ever been proved wrong by any laboratory setups. There are still plenty of things that they don't know, but when the CAN crank the equations and they CAN do the experiment, then they always match. The history of how these ideas went from nothing to something is well documented. Lots of things can be learned from it. Right now brain science is in a state of bewilderment, much like 1905 Physics. Some brain scientists seek insights as to how to move their specialized fields towards surety and understanding by closely studying the success track of Quantum. All this applies to Relativity too, but with fewer laboratory confirmations. Any field involving people is gobs more complicated, and much less certainty is available. However it's quite interesting to see how, even in the much simpler field of Physics, the concepts of certainty, surety, and sureness can slither away from us. It's also quite interesting to see how, by careful application of a simple method, SOME surety can emerge. *** The bottom line on surety is that in the 5-senses realm, it's non-existent. You can calculate some probabilities, some of the time, but you can never know for sure. It's part of the curse of Adam. Adam handed over his rulership of the earth (5-senses realm) to the devil, and that's who ruled that physical realm legally afterwards. He's called the god of this world, meaning the earthly, senses, physical realm. The repeating story of the Old testament is: God giving surety (and other things) to His people and in a relatively short time it's gone. It's taken from them in one way or another. One common way is they simply get talked out of it. Sometimes it's very quickly, too. There's no total certainty in anything gathered via the 5-senses, and that includes Google, and world class experts, and doing it yourself. There might sometimes be a hefty partial certainty, as in probability calculations, but they often don't last long. Even the first century church had it and lost it. *** There are two kinds of knowing, though. In addition to the 5-senses a person can gather knowledge via the spirit of God, if they have it. That's the only way to be sure. In the Advanced Class we were taught 16 keys to walking in the Spirit. Key #4 tells us" "Study the Word much. What we can know by the five sense God expects us to know." God expects us to gather what partial sureness we can gather by physically reading the written Word of God, and then we can expect Him to reveal to us sure knowledge. By getting His written Word into our hands we can study it to the best of our ability. It's just extremely important to make "sure" we get His ACCURATE written Word into our hands. This is a catch-22 now. How are we to find the sure written Word? The only way around this physical handicap is if God gives it to us . God must give us His intact, accurate Word or we can't operate Key #4. If it's not intact, we're right back into the catch-22 in that how "sure" can we be of our reconstruction job. It's got to be the whole package of His Word planted close to us and easy to get at. After we get this highest possible quality 5-senses knowledge into our minds, saturating our minds to the best of our abilities, then we have done our part in obtaining surety. We've satisfied the requirements of Key #4. Then God can directly reveal to us the spiritual knowledge of complete surety. *** It's only by revelation (written and then direct) from the True God that we can ever know anything for sure, both 5-senses knowing and spiritual knowing. . . .

...no I'm not a doctor, but I DO look like one and I'd like to say... :D--> ...no wait! That's an old comedy line that got stuck in my keyboard! ;)--> I have informally studied and "hung around" with dozens of the world's top brain scientists for 7 years. For many years before that I studied on my own. I can send you a copy of the GMIR article, or (if there are others interested here) I can scan some of it for posting when I have more time. All of yor questions are well founded and have been deeply considered by a number of people I have learned from.

How do we know ANYTHING for sure is a very interesting subject, and one that I have spent a lot of time on, not only in biblical studies, but also in Physics and medical brain science.

The GMIR article goes into all of this. There are no biblical texts surviving that support what this article puts forth, however there IS evidence from other ancient writings where these verses are quoted. Bullinger may have not been aware of them, or may not have felt a need to look at them deeply. Many manuscripts and writings have been discovered since his time. Bullinger also missed SIT by miles because of an unpleasant experience he had in a charasmatic church where they did SIT indecently and out of order. He reports this somewhere. Bullinger helped us all out on many occasions, but he was not the last word on restoring the scriptures that were esentially lost at the end of the first century. Bullinger helped to reconstruct an accurate understanding of many ancient scriptures, but not all.

WELCOME irisheyes. :D--> I too am Irish. :)--> I wrish I could see you in person now. :o--> Here are the verses in question: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. ......Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV)Â These verses bothered me for years, so when they were finally handled in the Way Magazine I took special notice. They were briefly touched on in the Mar/Apr 1982 issue, in the questions and answers section. Then in the next issue, May/June 1982 the GMIR article by Daniel L. McConaughy thoroughly exposed the TWO forgeries that are within these verses. It turns out that twice in later centuries additions were made to fit the current theological errors that had infiltrated the church by that time. In a nutshell, when the forged additions are removed the verses should read like this: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. .......Matthew 27:51-53 (corrected)Â It reads a little awkward here in my handling, but I did say this was a nutshell version of the answer. It simply means that from the earthquake some of the graves spilled dead bodies out and they were seen in the holy city of Jerusalem, sort of defiling it, and it was pretty shocking. For graves to open in an earthquake is a well known phenomenon. It still happens today, and when it does it's pretty shocking.

Tumbleweed Kid, You wrote: "If heaven is two feet off the ground, and an airplane is 10,000 feet off the ground, is the airplane in the spiritual realm???? How about a helicopter? How about a bird that's soaring? How about a cloud, is a cloud in the spiritual realm. "Your sooo funny!!!!!! LOL, not in the physical realm because it happens to be two feet off the gound. I guess Mr. Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs goes to heaven each time he dunks a basket ball and that puts him in the spiritual realm. Thank you for that educational process" I think you got it wrong. Let me re-write the sentences from scratch and see if it makes better sense to you. When the word "heaven" is used literally in God's Word, then that word refers to the areas of the physical realm that is anywhere above the ground. When the word "heaven" is used figuratively in God's Word, then that word refers to the spiritual realm. So, from that it should be obvious that an physical airplane flying at any high or low altitude is in what would biblically be a literal usage of the word "heaven" and still in the physical realm, as usual. If it's the case that I typed it out in a way that was confusing to you, please identify show me your suggested re-write so that my original sentences wouldn't suggest the admittedly ridiculous notion you just posted. If you just are pulling my leg here, then you succeeded. :(--> But if you're serious then either I must re-write the sentences and learn from your grammar correction OR you must learn to read English better. Say! :)--> That gives me an idea. If it's the case that I wrote the sentences well, and you mis-read them.... then might I suggest you come back to PFAL (after your reading lessons are completed) and see how many things you missed? On second thought... I'll wait until you find those sentences and we figure out who botched them in writing or reading. THEN I may make my suggestion. I'll be waiting. I always like getting a tune-up on my writing skills, so I'm having a hard time in deciding which side to root for here. Did anyone else here read my original sentences the way TW just did? I would imagine LOTS of posters would jump on me if I had written it in a confusing manner.

coolchef1248@adelphia.net, You sure do know how to elicit a response with your probing, heartfelt manner of questioning... --> ...Or maybe NOT!

mstar1, You wrote: "let me put it this way, if it works for you fine, but why can't you understand that I and many people here are not interested?" Many people here have insulated themselves from hearing of all the choices available to them. By their own admission many here, when in TWI, rarely went outside the box and thought TWI was all there was that was good. I saw this happening back then and resisted it, but I know few others did too. Now, after the ministry meltdown, many here rarely go outside a new box: that PFAL is evil. Many here have rarely faced any opposition regarding their newer theories on PFAL. Many here have wanted to keep this insularity and called for my ouster. I offer data that many here cannot and have not heard anywhere else. Besides, a few have been interested in my postings, but not in posting themselves. You are only looking at the high profile posters and not the lurking readers. My question to you is similar. If these most visible posters don't want my message then why do they spend so much time posting in my vicinity? When I start a thread they flock to it. When I post on just one thread like I am now, they flock to that one. Why aren't you asking the same question of them that you asked me? *** You wrote: " I have found the way that works for me and am 'heeding my call', its not yours its mine and there is no way i would reject mine to heed yours..." No way? Is your way leading you to do all the thing that Jesus Christ did? Is your way teaching you the fine points on how to operate the other six manifestations? Many here have given up on those goals in favor of temporary comfort. Have you? If so, why settle for what is the norm? Nearly anyone can find ways to become relatively and temporarily comfortable. If you're committed to mediocrity, fine. I'd like to challenge you to think like Jesus did and that we can rise up to his level. Maybe you gave up because your previous PFAL attempt failed. Well maybe it was the attempt that was flawed and not PFAL. I already showed you that your taking of the class 35 times was far from what we were instructed to do. Maybe if you go all the way it will work. Why sit you there until you die? It's people like you I'm trying to reach. I'll bet you had no idea that taking the film class 35 times was something Dr repeatedly said was NOT going to do the trick. You'll only know if you're missing something in those books by opening them and closing your ears to those who oppose such an action. *** You wrote: "If your product is so great why are you wasting time here with people who have over and over in word and action told you they dont want it? There are 6 Billion people in the world who have never heard of vpw or pfal to talk to and convert." The only ones to who PFAL is addressed are grads. As I wrote to dmiller above, it's only likely that older grads who saw it work once before will able to buck tradition enough to give the PFAL books a grand try like I'm urging. Everyone else has been "left behind" until we grads get it mastered. The thrust of Dr's final instructions were: FIRST master PFAL and THEN serve it. After we master it then we'll be able to hear God's instruction as how to exactly bless the others.

dmiller, Howdy. I was getting set to abandon ship in the public forums, but here I am again. Maybe this is my last gasp, or just a second wind. I just felt inspired to try again. You wrote: "I agree with most of the first sentence. I also agree with the 2nd sentence." Those sentences you agree with would be: "Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times." This is great progress, that you would agree with these two sentences! The pre-1942 situation was bleak, spiritually, and stayed bleak for some time after. It had been a disaster, with only a few glimmers of light for many centuries, ever since the Word was rejected in the first century. Let's remember this. *** But then you backed off with the next 3 sentences I wrote which were: "God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in written form." I admit that these sentences are a huge thing to believe. If it hadn't been for many things lining up over the course of many years for me I'd have never been able to believe these things, and even less able to speak and write them. I mentioned earlier to mstar1 that: "These things take time to see. AND it takes a better atmosphere in which to see them. It takes diligence and mastery. If you're patient we can get into the HUNDREDS of passages that illuminate these things." Please don't expect one post from me to line things up for you to believe these things in one sitting. If you remember the bleak and desperate situation a few paragraphs up, though, then you might be persuaded to put the time investment into looking to see if these later three sentences of mine describe the solution to the problem. Seeing that there is a HUGE problem in what we had passed down to us by antiquity is crucial. Those who are happy with tradition and feel that simply passing a test of time means integrity and accuracy will never look for a solution and will be bound in the uncertainty that you have agreed exists with traditional scriptures. This is what I meant many months ago with my phrase of "tattered remnants." I've seen a lot of error pass tests of time. There are no amount of posts from me that will do the trick and persuade you of the validity of the solution that I stated. It's only by opening the books and devoting to them the same amount of time and diligent effort that you put into GreaseSpot posting that you will see the validity of my later three sentences. The fact that Dr's many urgings to master PFAL were buried, and then his final teaching being totally lost might lead you to see a hint that putting great effort into mastering PFAL (remember: written form, mstar1 and others) is a worth while thing to do. The top leadership that were responsible for relaying Dr's often and final instructions to master the books were unquestioningly corrupt. That Dr's final instructions were so stupidly trampled on by these men was a strong motivating factor for me to do what they thought was unimportant. By 1998 I was very disgusted with the lack of accountability and responsibility of top leadership. I had spent 11 years pursuing them with valid questions as to what was going on. Either they were tight lipped about very important information, or they were foolish and hateful blabbermouths. I was stunned with how every one of them had discounted us underlings and were only looking out for themselves. For me it was an easy thing to decide that since they all had so totally rejected Dr's final instructions to master PFAL, well by golly, I was going to do the exact opposite. That's on the flesh and blood level. On the spiritual level I perceived that since the adversary had been so totally successful in suppressing Dr's last teaching, then there must be something very powerful in it that we needed and he didn't want us to see. So I had a very strong hint that if I wanted to find the solution to the big problem of surety in scriptures, then I ought to take another look at the PFAL writings, and do it very carefully. That's when I started finding many, many "Thus saith the Lord" statements. I lost count at 90. I figured that if Dr was lying, then it would all fall apart as I mastered the material. If he told the truth then it would all start coming together. I saw the later happen in a relatively short time, with some guidance from someone who had traced the same steps years earlier than me. As I spent much time in the books I was amazed at all I had forgotten or that had slipped by me long ago unnoticed. I saw the same had happened for many others I discussed these things with. I was encouraged that I was on the right track. I also saw that for me and one other grad here, that as soon as we both got committed to this course all hell broke out in our personal lives with others near us. It was a zoo for a while. I could see that the adversary was throwing at us all that the could. Although this was very painful, it encouraged me all the more to press on and see more that had been lost. So, remember, there's a huge problem in the matter us surety, and that Dr and I are screaming at the top of our lungs (Dr in the books and me here) that there is a solution in the revelations that were put into written form and ignored. I know of no other solution offered except from scholars who say that they are working on it and getting closer all the time. But how do they know that they aren't geting FARTHER from it with their reasonings? Well, I am not interested in their flesh methods because I know who runs the flesh realm. I want to see the spiritual solution, the Holy Spirit's solution. If it's not done by revelation, then all we can have is the surety that flesh can conjure up. That's not good enough for me. If not PFAL to solve the surety problem, then WHAT? Scholars have no surety. I'm saying that PFAL worked once when we were first exposed to it's pure form. We drifted from that pure form and things worked poorly. Coming back to PFAL to see what it can offer when done up properly is an unturned stone in the search for surety. We only half received what it offers. Those who did not see it work well once before have NO motivation to come back, and I can't blame them. It's only those who once were sure something was very right and worth devoting a lifetime to that can see these hints that it's worth coming back. Those who came in under Craig's reign have little reason to come back and huge reasons to stay away. I understand that. *** You wrote: "An honest question here (one that I think has not been asked before -- but perhaps it has): How do you know that docvic was the *chosen one*, as you said???" He said so AND he delivered the goods. But you must open the package and commit to it to see if it's true. How did you come to believe that the original scriptures are the True Word? How did you come to believe that Paul was the chosen one to receive the mystery? You had to read his Epistles to believe that, AND you had to have some help to do it. How did anyone in the Bible come to believe that God had spoken to some previous prophet? This is a very deep issue. It's never solved by armchair theologians. It's solved by those who hear that still small voice and then commit their all to follow it in spite of all sorts of flesh oppositions. *** You wrote: "Why is pfal any better than other writer's works, especially the Bible itself?" Because it was NOT just vp wierwille who produced it. God brought it to him, sometimes in direct revelations, sometimes by guiding him to others who had heard that still small voice and were able to teach it to him or write it down for him. Remember, we don't really have the Bible, just scholarly attempts to reconstruct it and worse yet translate it. Some parts were done well others not. *** You wrote: "Why didn't God chose Billy Graham and his ministry (for instance), which has a flawless record of sexual misconduct, and preaches the gospel of reconciliation?" He has his good traits but he also has faults. In order to keep his numbers up he has to say what people want to hear. He wasn't constrained by sex problems, but he was constrained by tradition problems. God needed a man who was willing to buck the system if He was to get something into written form that went beyond the system. Dr had the courage to face isolation from vast numbers of traditionalists. If Billy Graham had gone into SIT, Jesus Christ is not God, no consciousness after death, or heaven bound then he would have lost his numbers, and he knew it. He was good at getting people to face their lack of commitment within, but he was not good at getting people to reject tradition that is in error. He stays far from those issues. Accuracy in defiance of tradition and surety are not his longsuit. He deals more with emotions and commitment and it seems like he was able to work them pretty well. *** You wrote: "And by what authority do you make these claims?" I'm merely someone who has taken the time to look at the package very carefully, and in defiance of all those who were around me. I simply WANTED the truth more than social comfort. I lost a lot of that comfort, but I got to see more. I can type pretty fast, and I like to write. That's why I'm here. I saw that I was the only one who could announce these things to the other grads. I have no authority, but I can report who does. *** You wrote: "I know that you are convinced that what you say is true, and on that -- I think all will agree. What I am asking here (honest question - remember?), is how can docvic's *works* be so highly thought of, since he got them all from other men before him, messed up so totally *in the flesh*, and they were wrong (according to you), and he is right?" Like I said earlier, and posted many times before, those other men got the stuff from God. They each had their niche where they worked as minor revolutionaries. In this seeming endless plagiarism debate here I've posted from every direction on these things. Dr openly stated many times that he got many items from others, named names, and claimed to have God's guidance in putting it all together. He was totally honest in asserting that he "didn't write the book." He always stated that he either got his written material from others who got it from God or that he got it directly from God. As far as him messing up in the flesh I have less to say. I will not accept this forum as even coming close to having the surety of a court to law regarding Dr's sins, and courts are pretty crude themselves at times. I know from the Word that he had to have sin, and I know that one of the best levers the adversary has against a man is sex. That's all I need to know. I also know that God can tolerate a lot more sex sins than people can. I will never accept testimony, especially 20 and 30 years after the fact, that says Dr was beyond God's ability to work the PFAL revelations out with him. There's no one here who understands sex well enough and God enough to make that kind of judgment. I will only look within the books to see if it's God's Word. All other information is tainted in many ways in my eyes. I see MOST of his accusers as way out of balance on the law side. Dr confesses that he once was way out of balance on the law side too. I saw that in my day with him he was quite liberal, in fact too liberal for me at times. The balance here is rare, and that most people gravitate to one extreme or another has been my observation. Sometimes they switch from one extreme to the other and totally miss the balance in between. If I HAD to choose between working with people afflicted with the evils of puritanism and people afflicted with the evils of licentiousness I'd chose the later. Coming from a strict RC background and having law leanings myself, I feel that MUCH more evil comes from over-spiritualizing sex and the religious pursuit of sexual purity. I don't like either imbalance, but puritanism really stinks worse. I think God looks at it the same way. God tolerated a lot from David and others regarding sex, but murder was where He drew the line. Now watch how the puritans here will magnify and twist whatever they can with this paragraph, and ignore all the other points I make. There's a much greater evil in puritanism and the adversary milked it up to the max with the RC and Western culture, which was where the scriptures were. If liberal sex was the best way to suppress the truth, then the adversary would have had an RC kama sutra written hundreds and hundreds of years ago and in every Protestant church too. *** You wrote: "Please tell me (us) how you know for a certainty your claim in sentence number 3, about *God making docvic the one who would end all uncertainty*." I've pretty well answered that already. I arrived at my surety with PFAL by the same means that I came to believe that the original Bible was true. Someone told me (vpw) in a way that convinced me to open the book a lot. After spending a lot of time with my KJV God worked with me and I got to the place where I was willing to bet my life on it. How does anything like this get accepted? People try it out and like it. It's never proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and then accepted. Life doesn't work that way. We only have solid proofs in mathematics. In physics less surety in the proofs is enjoyed, and in biology even still less. By the time we get to spiritual matters there is no such thing as a proof. Have you ever been asked similar questions regarding the Bible? How could you prove to a skeptic that the Bible is true? You can't. No one can. It's "try it you'll like it" or "come and see" and that's all we got. *** You wrote: "I for one do not see it. Many men have walked for God. I see correctness and error in many *ministries*, but I am loath to place one over the other (as you have done), and declare one *better than others* I see God at work in many people's lives, and through many different avenues." I felt the same way, until I was alerted to the special truths in PFAL, and saw these things lacking elsewhere. If you lived in Jesus' time the above sentence you wrote would suddenly have an exception to it, right? Jesus' way would be superior to all others, but would you be able to see it? Would you ask Jesus for a mathematical proof that he was God's Son? If you would he would surely decline. He's say work the word with me, AND IT WOULD TAKE TIME. If you asked for a miracle as proof he'd likely decline. Thomas got his, but he put a lot of time into it before he was accommodated, and even then he was scolded for missing the greater blessing of believing first and then seeing. Where and when are you willing to believe first and then see as per Jesus' advice? I see nothing but PFAL for such a leap on my part. Leap we must, but where? How about some unturned stone that has good credentials. PFAL worked once well for some of us. For us who saw PFAL once work well my invitation to do what ALL the top leadership was seduced into NOT doing is a hot tip!

Oakspear, I vaguely remember Bullinger expounding on the heaven issue. It was years ago, but I remember a phrase "birds of the heavens" regarding common creatures. I checked this out 30 years ago, so it's dim.