Mike

CM, Are you TRYING to fire me up, or something? If I wanted to get fired up then what Raf said could have done it. It does amaze me how much I've written that WAS fired up from efforts of those who wanted to to silence me. Seems like they apply the Law of reversed Efforts unknowingly. I'm happy to have gotten into the record what I did. I don't need to have the last word to be happy.

How gentlemanly of you to wait your turn! ;)--> . .

Raf, Instead of attacking me, or my manner of posting, let's focus on the ideas that are presented, ok?

Xena, You wrote: "Back to the original point of this thread: "Awaiting the Return" is indeed Way-Speak." I agree, however, with qualifications. I think WordWolf's initial assessment was fine in that the IDEA of "awaiting the return" is right on with the scriptures. Sure, there's no conscious awareness in such "waiting" but no one ever asserted there was. Inanimate objects can passively wait on the actions of conscious beings, and so can dead people. I don't believe all Way-Speak was/is bad. I've posted tons here how I see in our TWI past an evil, counterfeit verbal tradition, but not ALL in that spoken set of doctrines was corrupt. A clever counterfeit will have lots of good, otherwise it's too easy to spot as wrong. The TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) started out pretty accurate but slowly drifted into many errors as time progressed. What I was pointing out with the specific word "return" is that the meaning Dr affixed to this word in his teachings is extra-biblical. I believe God gave Dr revelation in his use of the word "return" to explain an aspect of the Gathering Together that we cannot find in the ancient scriptures. It's only in PFAL. *** In both your initiating post and in your second one you indicated a belief that Jesus Christ was often squeezed out of our consciousness. You mentioned JCPS, but minimized its ability to inspire you. Might I suggest "Jesus Christ Our Passover" as an excellent view of the Gospels and Jesus' life on earth? It's also the case that "Jesus Christ Is Not God" has two long chapters on who he IS. I know of what you speak when you say that Jesus Christ was avoided in our TWI experience, but I see that this avoidance was totally in the actions of leadership and not in Dr. Wierwille. There are many times when Dr tried to address this void in the ministry, but in his later years much of what Dr said was totally ignored. I have much documentation of his attempts to get us to "turn your eyes upon Jesus" as the song puts it. I see Jesus Christ in the Epistles of Paul. Paul got his revelations for those epistles from him. When we look at the Epistles we see a greater ministry of Jesus Christ, the one at God's right hand, than we can see in his earthly ministry as depicted by the four gospels. Yes, Jesus was absent in the minds of leadership, but not in Dr's. He taught us much that we just blew off. I want to set the record straight on this.

The reason I yearn to earn crowns is because I learned my Father yearns to give them.

CM, I hadn't thought about the word "second" at all. Thanks for the tip. I've been thinking through and re-thinking Christ's next coming, the Gathering Together, the Return, and other related nomenclature from as many angles as possible. I'm also re-examining all my mind pictures regarding our hope. We were taught much about how people 2000 years ago were seriously sidetracked by erroneous expectations and/or mind pictures, not only regarding his coming but in many other areas too. We were taught how easy it was to lean on error filled tradition and how many people do it. But how many of us ever thought it could happen to us too? In many debates with trinitarians I often wondered how I'd fare if I were in their shoes. I could see that they usually would depart from all logic and reason when the great discomfort of walking away from their cherished beliefs was presented to them from the scriptures. I often would ask myself if I could expect that from them, not knowing how I'd react. Well, the time finally came when I had to face many of my own cherished errors, and after many years I now am in the habit of challenging myself on things like this. Whether we call it return, or second coming, or gathering together, or whatever, thinking this subject through from top to bottom is now a high priority of mine. And yes, of course, it has a lot to do with the why's and wherefore's behind Dr's often instructing us to master written PFAL. And yes, that's why I took the time to post on it. I think you all knew that anyway.

CM, You wrote: "interesting where and how the word "return" is used in the bible..." From that it looked to me that you had opened up your Youngs and were seeing how "return" was used. I was hoping you also saw how it was NOT used. Did you happen to see that? My point is that Xena had something correct in her first post here. The word "return" is not used in the KJV in association with Christ's second coming. It's totally Wayspeak. It might also be used by other ministries, but not the KJV. I tried make this point last year, but no one would bother to open up their concordances. It seems that it's anathema for some people to learn from me because of my belief system. Some don't even want me to post here. It will be very interesting who flips their "ignore" switch on me when it's available in the new software, and even more interesting who does not. Now, where am I going with the word "return" labeled as Wayspeak? Maybe I should save that for a thread of my own or one that won't be derailed by what I have to say on this interesting word. Or maybe I could just wait for this thread to run it's course and then I could post it. Is it OK to hijack a spent thread? BTW, this word "return" applying to Christ's second coming was identified as not scriptural in an old CES Dialog Magazine article from around 1991.

gads! Raf, you are the one hijacking it. You insist on making the subject: me. I don't hide my agenda, so why do you act as if you have to warn everyone. You're a wanabe Paul Revere. Why don't you go and distribute leaflets in New Orleans announcing the arrival of Katrina or something else useless. There's an important issue that this thread brought up. It happens to lie in the vicinity of things I've already posted on. I'm trying to remind folks. Although WW's analysis at the beginning of this thread has it's merits, he missed the significance of the key word "return." Possibly CM saw what I've been trying to say. How about you, Raf? Have you bothered to get out your Youngs Concordance or are you too busy playing Lone Ranger or something else? *** General Announcement: Raf is right. I just hijacked this thread. It's mine now. Sorry Xana, even though you were on to something, maybe unintentionally, Raf insists that I hijack this thread, so why waste time? Let's cut to the chase. Well, unfortunately, I have to go to work now. So nobody post here until I get back. Hijackings can get spoiled real easy that way.

Let's return to "return."

Raf, You're drifting from the subject.

CM, It's even more interesting to see how "return" is NOT used in the KJV.

The key word to focus on is "return."

Thomas, I have in my files a newspaper account from the movie star Jerry Lewis who described his "death" of 20 years ago as dark, lonely, cold, and very unpleasant. Not all the dying experience the "light" by a long shot, but those who do have no trouble getting their story published far and wide. The adversary has a HUGE stake in promoting his first lie, so he assists with his publishing contacts. I assume with no hesitation that all experiences (both negative and seemingly positive) surrounding such a set of circumstances as heart stoppage occur either in the seconds before or in the seconds after flat lining. Likewise, most dreams are very short and occur just before or just after deep sleep. This is measurable to some extent with modern technology. I also think there may be times when the True God gives a genuine vision to help heal a person in dire straits like this. How that person interprets such a vision my be doctrinaly inaccurate, but it can still get the job done.

Another item in my files is "the Idiom of Permission" from either the AC or one of the seminars. This helps a lot in understanding the OT and many places where God's name is associated with death, especially when one includes the "Viewpoints" chapter in WWAY. The exact details of the death of King Saul open up many OT verses. Hee is a copy of the idiom as I received it. ******* AN EXPLANATION OF THE IDIOM OF PERMISSION In the Old Testament there are many apparent contradictions that revolve around the general theme of God killing or hurting someone. The flood of Noah, the Tower of Babel, the Sodom and Gomorrah incident and the plagues upon Egypt all fall into this category and there are many others. These incidents seem to contradict what we know from the New Testament about our heavenly Father. To understand these records and verses one must understand idioms used in the Bible. An idiom is a usage of words in a culture that have a meaning other than their strict dictionary definition. For example, in American vernacular if someone says, “Mr. Jones kicked the bucket last week,” that is an idiomatic way of saying, “Mr. Jones died last week.” In the Old Testament, God uses an idiom in which a verb is used in a permissive sense. What is written as the Lord “smote Uzzah” was actually the Lord “allowed Uzzah to be smitten. God set up His laws and man can break himself on them if he so desires. God also set up the law of gravity, but only a fool would think that God killed a man who jumped off a ten-story building. The man killed himself by violating God’s law of gravity. So the true picture in the Scripture is that the Adversary kills, hurts, and harms. Man allows this to happen as he attempts to break God’s laws. God used the idiom of permission for several reasons. The idiom of permission does not glorify the adversary. Imagine how the Old Testament would read if everything the adversary did to man was attributed to him. We would read about the adversary on every page! This would be clearly out of harmony with God’s commandment in Exodus 23:13, and would not be a blessing to God’s people to read. Furthermore, people in the Old Testament were not equipped to deal with the adversary. If God had revealed the adversary to people who could not deal with him, the people would have become fearful, and been worse off for their knowledge. The adversary was not fully comprehended until Jesus Christ revealed and defeated him (Luke 10:23,24). Jesus Christ never blamed any sickness, death, or evil on God. The reason that the people in the Old Testament did was due to the fact that God had not yet revealed the adversary. This explains verses like Job 1:21 and I Samuel 2:6. Today most people (even Christians) do not believe in the adversary. They have forgotten the teaching of Jesus Christ and have become “zealous for the law,” attributing sickness and death to the true God. In many examples of this idiom in the Old Testament, the people being hurt were the enemies of God. The question has arisen as to why the adversary would hinder people who oppose God. The people who oppose God set themselves against the law of God and break themselves on it. The Word shows us that the Devil is as much hate as God is love and does kill his own people on occasion.

Brain scientists have noted that as a person lies on their back, the occipital lobe of the brain (where sight occurs) is low and can receive some blood via gravity, even when the heart stops. Some have speculated that the "light at the end of a tunnel" reports from near death victims could find some explanation in this. A physiological effect of light sensation, coupled with a totally incapacitated discrimination facilties, coupled with pre-written expectations, and these near death reports loose supernatural credibility. But this is only speculation. From my old notes I also have a firsthand, authoritative account of the dying experience. Jesus compared his 3 days in the grave with Jonah's 3 days in the "whale." Many theologians have done handstands to agree with or to disagree with a literal interpretation of Jonah, but most miss the very simple explanation that Jonah DIED in the whale's belly. Jesus saw this and took comfort that God would rescue him like He did Jonah from the grip of death. It doesn't look like Jonah enjoyed his trip into sheol. Here is the NIV of Jonah 2: 1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. 2 He said: "In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry. 3 You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me. 4 I said, 'I have been banished from your sight; yet I will look again toward your holy temple.' 5 The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head. 6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God. 7 When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple. 8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs. 9 But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD." 10 And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

I was also amazed when I studied the several chapters in ADAN that dealt with common errors in how certain verses are handled. The fact that traditional churcianity has only about 9 or ten verses to support the idea of immediate life after death is noteworthy. Long before I came back to master PFAL I had found hundreds of KJV verses that say there is total unconsciousness for the dead. To think that traditional churches ignore all those verses and then lean with all their weight on a small handful of verses is tragic! Not only are there only a small number of verses that support tradition, but some of them aren't even full verses, or complete sentences, but mere phrases! Those who look to these verses usually strip them of context in order to twist them into the pretzel of tradition. There was only one difficult passage in these commonly misunderstoood scriptures, and that is the story of the rich man and the poor man who die and then converse with Abraham. THAT one took a while for me to settle, but eventually even that one lined up with the whole of the scriptures.

Mr Hammeroni, Thank you for your evaluation of my post on Psalm 16. There's not much in that that's my reasoning, though. I believe that I use the same kind of logic in all my posts: simple recognition of authority. Because I recognize Dr's writings as authoritative, many emotions are upset and the logic I employ is not seen, simply due to mentioning his name or PFAL. Back to the topic of this thread. Thanks also to you, sirguessalot, for recognizing the simple adherence to everyday life the stripped down version of the Matt 27 verse seems to report. Think how many people saw New Orleans coffins afloat in just the past week even!!! As for consciousness of any sort immediately after death (of the flesh and brain) it sounds to me that many of you have not yet mastered "Are the dead Alive Now?" (Did I just hear a lot of emotional buttons clicking? :D-->) When I first encountered this book I was stunned at how slim it was, especially its one thesis chapter. Plus, I was very appreciative at how simple the whole subject becomes when total unconsciousness of the dead is recognized. The ONE common error in ALL major religions is the immediate (and usually upgraded) form of consciousness that is supposed to be granted to the departed one. All that religion stems from the first lie told to Eve. It makes God look like the one with the power of death, when it's clearly the devil (Heb 2:14). The utter simplicity of seeing death as not a friend, not a door, not a reunion with God, but as AN ENEMY was exhilarating to me when I first stumbled into a fellowship. It is priceless knowledge to know that God is not a skitzo who tells us not to kill, but who brazenly offs people at his own mysterious whim. To know that God is always willing and able to deliver us from death is crucial to living in fellowship with Him. There are many forces at work to obscure this Loving God. They started with Eve swallowing the first lie, and they helped ease the consciences of those scribes who butchered Matt 27. These hurricane forces have seen to it that both Western religions and Eastern subscribe to the idea that death isn't all that bad after all, ignoring the shortest verse in the KJV where it states that Jesus wept over hearing of his best friend's death. Now many PFAL grads (who SHOULD know better had they even only carefully read ADAN) are flirting with these forces as if they are benevolent winds of doctrine! The first mention of death in our versions of the Bible is God telling His people how to avoid it. The first promise of the Savior focuses at destroying the death dealing power of the devil. In Acts we see in every speech given by believers that Jesus' resurrection is the key element. In Romans we see it's by believing in our hearts in the God Who conquered death in the Lord Jesus that we are saved.

I can say much on that verse, but it would be far from the topic of this thread. Besides... I tired and ready for bed. I don't think I could do the subject justice in between yawns.

Oh THAT verse! That verse IS very interesting to me, but I don't know of any apparent contradiction that clouds it.

Hi Todd, I can't say I remember that portion of our get together. What aparent contradiction are you refering to?

Thomas, Thank you. Those simple scriptures did a lot for me many years ago.

I'm aware of the benefits of reckoning the old man nature dead, but I don't think the origin of this thread heads in that direction. Let's look at Psalm 16. I often like to see the simple explanation in the Word of God. I choose this Psalm because both Peter and Paul choose it to teach in Acts. But first, the Psalm. Psalms 16 1 - Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust. 2 - O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee; 3 - But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight. 4 - Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips. 5 - The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. 6 - The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage. 7 - I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. 8 - I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 - Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 - Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. It's the last three verses that are the focus here. Please note that in verse 10 the word "hell" should be translated "grave." Most modern versions correct this. Peter handled this Psalm in his Pentecost speech in Acts 2:22-35: 22 - Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 - Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 - For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 - Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 - Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 - Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 - This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 - Until I make thy foes thy footstool. In verse 35 Peter quotes from another Psalm, and it's one where the last enemy and it's destruction is mentioned. David's relief comes in God overcoming death via resurrection. He's still waiting for it. Paul quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 13:29-38: 29 - And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 - But God raised him from the dead: 31 - And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 - And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 - God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 - And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 - Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 - But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 - Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: Many have seen that death is a bad thing in the OT because it involves unconsciousness, but have erroneously taught that after Jesus' death and resurrection those who were in the bondage of the grave were set free. Here are two post-Pentecost teachings on Psalm 16 that declare David still dead and in his grave.

Let's hear it for IGNORANCE! Return with us now, to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when the people knew that they didn't know! -->

All this work has been done for us before in the PFAL writings. Re-inventing the wheel is hard, especially if it's only 5-senses that are at one's disposal. If such a senses attempt is a failure, that does not mean the the revelation to Dr can't revolve, as in roll.

Hi irisheyes, Here's the footnote on pages 257-258 that covers those verses: "24. Matthew 27:52 and 53 are clearly added by scribes. Manuscript 354 in Venice, Italy, omits these verses. Though other textual documentation for this has not yet been found, it must be realized that the earliest manuscript including this section of Matthew 27 dates from the fourth century AD. These verses must be an addition since they are contradictory to other scriptures which teach us that the dead are dead and will remain so until Christ returns. Until that time, only Christ has been raised bodily from death onto everlasting life. Textual critics as well as marginal notes in other old manuscripts have recognized these verses as later interpolations. The phrase 'after his resurrection' in Matthew 27:53 demonstrates the passage is totally out of context, obviously a scribal addition." Without spending much time on these things, this here sounds even more harsh an assessment than the GMIR article. Scanning the GMIR article will take a little more time (in proofreading) and it's on dark paper, so it might not work at all on my scanner. I can send you an xerox copy anytime, though.