Mike

The only way to focus on the RIGHT spirit (many claim to be Christ) is to have a physical written standard to measure them by. This is how Jesus discerned that the visions in the desert were counterfeit. After much practice with the physical standard (It Is Written) then, and ONLY then, can someone spot the counterfeits by spiritual discernment. Key #4 in the AC's "16 Keys to waling in the Spirit" is "Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know." Keep up the hooky pook, CM, and I can keep my commercials rolling.

P.S. In my long post I wrote: "I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough." Mystics also like this same problem, that whole line of them ahead of you, because it gives them a chance to claim a direct link. They sometimes use poetry or KJV style English to sell themselves.

CM, ...but thank you for giving me such a great opportunity to broadcast my commercial. :D--> We can turn this hijacked thread back over to Xena now. I'm done.

CM, So you're claiming to have a direct link, just like Dr did. You'll have to get on that line now, at the end, after all the others who claim to have that kind of revelation. Dr earned my respect, and he turned out a load of material to back up his claim. The mind of Christ is in those books. Whoever masters them can have Christ formed within. THAT'S where Christ is! I'm not at all interested in your claim. My mind is closed tight like a bank vault and YOU are not getting in. Maybe you can convince some of those others in that line that you got the real McCoy, but they will be trying to convince you too. Good luck.

CM, I had a shower and dinner and can write a little before I go out to a poetry reading. You invited me into a discussion and I had written to you: "I don't recognize the authority from which you speak." You responded with: "and that authority is?" Here's my answer: Prior to 1998, my chosen authority was the set of canonical original scriptures. I had thought we were taught in the class to take these as our only rule for faith and practice, the Bible as originally given. This single focused set of writings served as a source outside myself, a center of reference from which I sought to learn. This was my authority, my unalterable standard for truth. {{vocabulary check - synonyms for this context: authority, only rule for faith and practice, source outside myself, center of reference, standard}} . . . ..... take a breather, all those who hate long posts . . . As time passed, though, I slowly realized that this source was not concrete, but abstract. I couldn't buy a set of the original Bible manuscripts, and even if I could I didn't have an authoritative translation for it. I knew translations of the same document could diverge in as many ways as there are translators and/or moods involved in the translation, and then working that translation into a readable copy including idioms and such was even more ambiguous. I could get an approximate copy of the originals, but the degree of approximation bothered me more and more as I found out more and more about how sloppy the originals were handled. I had thought for years that the "critical Greek texts" were the most important ancient manuscripts, but eventually found out that they are actually very modern in origin, the oldest being the Stevens dating from 1550. I found out that the reason for the critical texts was to ferret out sloppy copies from the fragments. The originals were long gone and all we had were sloppy copies that tended to disagree with each other in many places. The critical Greek texts "solved" that problem, BUT the various critical tests ALSO varied from each other, as the footnotes of any interlinear testify. I started seeing a huge problem, in that I could not get my hands on an actual copy of my only rule for faith and practice, the God-breathed original scriptures. I could only hold in my hand or place on a table a man-made, non-God-breathed approximation of it. This was a huge challenge to me. Is any of this sounding familiar yet? I was in a quandary, in that in order to "research" my way back to more and more accurate copies (not even yet addressing the translation problem which is even bigger) of my authoritative standard I had to trust many different scholars, some of whom disagreed with each other on specifics and even on principles. Not only did I have to trust these scholars, but I had to trust myself in choosing them. I was getting farther and farther from a simple rule for faith and practice and my "authority" consisted of a very complex mix where I, myself, had to be involved to make crucial decisions. The whole idea of a source outside myself was out the window. My authority was confused. My unalterable standard was changing every year little by little. I had no way of knowing how far I was from the ultimate cleaning up of these originals, still vexed with the translation problem which was even more, MUCH more challenging and ambiguous. I shuddered at the thought that I could arrive at the truth for any passage, but then keep on "researching" myself AWAY from it unknowingly. I could see that the scholars kinda liked this whole problem because it gave them a chance to be authorities if they sold themselves well enough. . . . . . . . Couple all this with the loss of many friends in the ministry meltdown(s) and I was starting to ask God for help just like I did in 1970, before I took the class. I could get no help from the leadership around me or across country because they were all totally locked onto rescuing their career paths and truth was a far off priority. One by one formerly trusted leaders showed up with no clothes with the crowd complimenting them for their stately attire. Then I heard that one low level local leader, who had previously been one of the most respected leaders in San Diego, a grad from 1969, had suddenly showed up on the s-h-i-t list for loosing his mind and forsaking the newly officiallized bastion-of-truth, the Chris Geer class. He had gone back to PFAL. I knew by then not to trust any of the official proclamations of the SD leadership, so I contacted this man. He told me of Dr's last teaching and the fun he was having in coming back to PFAL. He showed me some "thus saith the Lord" statements of Dr's I had not been aware of along with the one I was aware of. I came back to PFAL and learned some things deeper than I had learned before. I learned that Dr had gone through the exact same quandary I mentioned above, briefly describing it as "reading around the Word." I saw WHY he was ready to throw in the towel in 1942 and what it really was God had promised to help him with. I learned that it was only Dr who was given the 1942 promise that God would guide him through the morass of opinions and scholarly sense knowledge opinions regarding the reconstruction of the originals AND the translation problem to boot! I learned that this project was basically finished in 1982, and totally finished in 1985. God had supplied an authority in writing for us. My authority now is the written version of PFAL, the collaterals and Dr's magazine articles. . . . . . . . I can place a copy of my ultimate authority on a table for all to see and for me to work with, to rightly divide. I can use all the tools Dr taugh us to use in the class for dealing with very difficult documents such as the KJV and the critical texts. The documents I use these tools on are plain and simple. I don't think there are any posters here who were able to satisfy my challenge to place their tangible, concrete, outside-themselves, unalterable, authority or standard on a table where all can see it. Everyone failed in the tangible or unalterable or outside-themselves categories. So, CM, what's your authority? . . . . . . .

Ok

I know that in the early 70's many thought Dr taught by revelation, but no one seemed to get so explicit about it that they stated they were God-breathed JUST LIKE the original scriptures. THAT idea weakened by the early 80's and many drifted into seeking other sources for light. I was one.

Exclusively them? And with the attitude that they are God-breathed, and thus unquestionable?

Want my phone number? Going through the books with the attitude that they are given by revelation is VERY DIFFERENT from simply going through them. I've spent 7 years going through pretty much NOTHING BUT the PFAL books and magazine articles, AND with the attitude they are authoritative. I don't think you can relate to that at all.

What does this post of yours mean? "you have had closer contact then email with some that could help, but that didn't work at the time. i like the posting thing if we stay honest" Should "then" be "than" ? What do you mean by "at that time" Who are you talking about? Please start all over and go slower and be more specific. Correct your spelling and punctuation... PLEASE.

CM, I hate to be persnickity, but could you say that again? Your last post doesn't make sense.

Well that's in interesting technological mystery? How did that previous post get repeated? I'm too tired to figure it out.

CM, OK. I'm tired fro work and grouchy. Let's start all over. What do you want to talk about? Why don't you just e-mail me?

I'm getting grouchy again! Let's start all over from the beginning. You rang?

CM, OK. I'm tired from work and grouchy. Let's start all over. What do you want to talk about? Why don't you just e-mail me?

I see we're posting on top of each other. What have you been doing all afternoon? Waiting for me to come home? So what IS your trip?

CM, ...or a direct knowledge of the truth ...or a handle on the light Same line.

def59, Who is the author of ALL death? How many writers of the ancient scriptures have NOT died? Do the math.

CM, Do you have any idea how many pipsqueeks have told me that they have revelation about me and my message in just the past year? Get in line! Wait your turn.

CM, I ran out of time to answer your question, but I will say here that I've answered your question about 50 times before. Maybe there any other posters here who paid enough attention to my previous posts to answer you while I'm at work. I used slightly different terminology in my previous posting on this, so that's probably why you don't remember. I've posted before about how many of us did well on things like the AC entrance exam because that test used the exact wording in the books. If the AC exam was not multiple choice questions, but essay, most would have failed. If the AC exam was a test of ideas most would have not done nearly as well. Does anyone here know what my recognized authority is? I've even posted what it USED to be before it was upgraded 7 years ago. I'm talking about reams of text I've issued on this topic. Because this question of yours, CM, fits in so squarely with my agenda, I will answer you soon. Don't you have ANY idea what it is now though?

WordWolf, You wrote: "What prompted this degree of candor, Mike? You used to go out of your way to avoid saying this outright, and accuse us of misrepresenting you when we said this was your position? I'm curious." I think you missed the many times when I DID say those kinds of things. I've often admitted that I have an agenda. How could I hide it? Why would I hide it? I've often said that I was closed minded on SOME things, things that I finally found the truth on. I've often argued that a closed mind is a good thing when someone has the truth, and an open mind is good when they don't. I resisted, dodged, avoided (whatever term you put on it) Raf's thread on apparent contradictions because his methods don't fit with my chosen methods. His agenda there is different than mine. I start with an assumption that the texts are pure and God-breathed; he starts assuming they are not God-breathed and that my assumption is idolatry. He stops and celebrates when an apparent contradiction or error is spotted and seems sure on the surface; I see the work as just beginning when such an item is arrived at. *** When the Federal Government issued visas to 2 or 3 of the dead 9/11 terrorists a year after the attaacks President bush stepped into Claude Reins's Casablanca shoes by stating "I'm shocked! Simply SHOCKED, that there's that kind of inefficiency in this government." This embarrassed me to no end. I am not a political zealot, but I did vote for him and he sorely disappointed me at that point. When most people in San Diego, a border city, heard about the visa issuing they yawned and thought, "Typical! so what else is new?" The fact that the visas were issued post mortem was not news here. The fact that the visas were issued to known terrorists was not news here. It was a "dog bites man" story through and through. Everyone knows the Feds are shlumps when it comes to the border. I figured either Bush was lying through his teeth, like the Casablanca character, or he was dumber than dirt about how clumsy the government is. Here was a border governor who must have seen first hand the Fed's total ineptness in dealing with the Texas border, or he had his eyes totally closed and merely used his governorship as a stepping stone to the presidency. I was mortified. AND I also thought the left wing was going to have a field day tearing him apart with an analysis similar to my own after his expression of shock. But the left wing, in all their rabid hatred and total focus on how to defeat Bush NEVER SAW this huge opportunity to cast ill light on him. Why? Because they were TOO focused on catching him at something, and it slipped by them. When people are too focused on a small picture they totally miss the big picture; it's the forest versus the trees scenario. Ditto for you, WW. I've kidded you for being too focused before, and here's proof that I'm right. I saw the same thing with Steve Lortz when I first came on here. There was an incident with another poster and I almost bowed out of posting to avoid hurting that person. Finally a small number of posters (thank you much, Abigail!) caught on and saw that my motives were noble, but old Stevarino kept plugging away at me thinking he had caught me with my hand in the cookie jar and my pants down. It was very telling how he was not paying ANY attention to the resolution of the matter and simply salivating at the opportunity of catching me in some "fatal" contradiction. Some other posters finally let him in on what he had missed. WW, you miss many things that are in my heart and in my posts. You are so dutifully devoted to snagging me you can't hear what I am saying. If you don't see a hook to grab onto in a post of mine, you don't mentally process it and promptly forget it as you move on looking for more hooks. My use of the phrase "tattered remnants" was totally misunderstood as well as my attitude to the ancient scriptures and even modern versions. I finally got a good chance to explain that to Chatty Kathy some several months ago, but it was promptly buried by other posters who could not bear to accept my explanation. Sure I resent it when you folks misrepresent me, and you do it all the time out of your hatred for VPW, PFAL, and TWI. You often do misrepresent me because you don't listen to me. You hear certain buzz words and phrases but you don't put together my thoughts. If you don't believe me, I'll pull up my own quotes where I have said such things before... when I get time. Meanwhile they're in the record for those who want to search. Maybe they'll actually listen to my ideas and understand them in the process.

Did someone leave a door open? I feel a draft in here.

Before I was aware of the idiom I searched far and wide to get an understanding of why the OT would portray God as killing evil people but Hebrews ascribing death to the devil. It took a while for me to fully understand the "Viewpoints - God's and Man's" chapter in Volume III, WWAY where the idiom is illustrated but not fully explained. It also pops up a few times in the "Job - From Victim to Victor" chapter in Volume IV, GMWD. In the meantime I found an interesting aspect of God's justice system that fits in with all this. This is a mechanism likened to an evil person digging a pit to ensnare a victim for robbery but who ends up falling into that pit himself. I just thought it was interesting. Here is what I found: Psalms 5:10, 9:15, 10:12, 34:21, 35:8, 37:15, 57:6, 64:8, 69:22, 109:29, 140:10, 141:10 Proverbs 1:31, 5:22, 8:36, 11:27, 11:3, 11:17, 11:19, 11:27 Ecc. 10:8 II Chron. 20:23 Ez. 22:31 If anyone sees anything odd about any references her I'm open for correction. I'm too tired to look them all up right now. I just copied these from my wide margin and haven't looked at them in well over 25 years. There could be some mistakes or odd twists in there.

CM, Gosh, what is it that you saw? I'd be happy to discuss some things with you, if they fit in with my agenda. I have to warn you that I'm pretty much only interested in seeing what God taught Dr and Dr put into written form. I don't recognize the authority from which you speak, so I'm declaring myself to be non-meek, uncoachable, and closed minded... unless you can show me something within the PFAL writings. Just to satisfy Raf's inner vigilantee, maybe we should go to a new thread. Is it Christ's return and the gathering together the topic you want to discuss?

It may have been from the Advanced Class, or maybe Walter Cummins' research class where it was originaly handed out. It got circulated around after that and I lost track of where it came from for sure.