Mike

GrouchoMarxJr You asked: "...and who decides who the normal people are?...You?" No, by default we ALL are normal. The very few special prophets are chosen by God. He decided in the OT who could get spirit upon them and who could not. He WANTED all of Israel to have it, but they didn't cooperate. In the NT God decides who gets what jobs. *** You asked: "God had to search far and wide for very special and rare people...says who?...You?" No, the Bible says this. Just look at how rare it was that people had spirit upon them in the OT. In Moses time it once occurred that 70 got it and it was a big deal. *** You asked: "Am I to assume that YOU have decided that I am a "normal" person and not a "special and rare" person?...If so, how did you conclude this?" If you were the type who was chosen to bring forth the Word, then you'd be the one teaching right doctrine. Instead you just post on GreaseSpot your opinions like normal people. *** You asked: "I noticed that you included yourself in the category of being a "normal" person when you used the word "We"...Seeing that you have concluded that you, yourself, are not a "special and rare" person, why do you believe that your spiritual insights are more valid than anyone else's here at the GreaseSpot?...especially when you define the "special and rare" people as those "who could tell the difference between senses and spirit and between the true God and satan"?" I came back to PFAL and started studying it intensely 7 years ago. That is what gives me an edge, not any specialness of my own. Come back and you can have it too. It takes work. *** You wrote: "By you're own words...You are not a "special and rare" person, therefore you cannot tell the difference between senses and spirit, nor can you tell the difference between the true God and satan." Again, I have the advantage of spendig time with writings that are God-breathed. *** You wrote: "Of course, the message you convey is contrary to what the book of Ephesians says about every Christian having the abilities that you attribute to only "special and rare" people." No, the God-breathed text of Ephesians asserts that it was Paul who had the charge of bringing for the the mystery and no one else. All of us Christians have the ability to to operate the revelations manifestations, but we weren't all given the revelation of the doctrine. In that century only Paul was given that. You're confusing this specialness that enables one person to get a job done with special favor. *** You wrote: "In fact, your words cause division within the body of Christ because you falsely manufacture 2 categories of people within the body of Christ...those who are "special and rare" and those who are "normal"...or as I like to say, the "haves" and the "have nots"...this is totally contrary to what the bible teaches. Is it any wonder that people think you are a buffoon?" It is no wonder that people (like you especially in this case) are like sheep and need a shepherd. You have totally missed my point about specialness, so it is you who are engaged in buffoonery. God's Word points out that only a select few have brought us written doctrine. That doesn't make them special in the category of the Body of Christ, only special in what jobs they were given. *** Let me explain this specialness more, so that even a buffoon can get it. It's in the category of temperament, upbringing, even body chemistry. There can be a genetic component, and upbringing plays a part. God's prophets, His mouthpieces, need to withstand the fierce onslaught of the adversary who will try to prevent their bring forth and distributing God's Word for the first time. Once it's out there in the senses realm and distributed, the adversary's forces are diluted, but they are really concentrated on the prophet who brings it for th for the first time. The specialness I brought up is NOT special favor or special standing. It's a special ability to hear God's voice and a special willingness to face the wrath of the adversary. In the Old Testament prophets were rare. Sometimes hundreds of years would go by with none around. In the New Testament, God tried to get Peter to hear the mystery but he just wasn't up to it. Paul was, and Peter finally acknowledged him. John the Baptist was one of these special people, in fact, the most special. How he had spirit before he had soul I have no idea, but it's there in print. On page 23 of "The Bible Tells Me So" Dr handles II Corinthians 9:8, which says "And God is able, to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work." He then goes on to teach (with my bold fonts): "Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God’s will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency. "We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, “That just cannot be,” and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, “Sufficiency in everything.” We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place." We are so slow because we revere reason and sense knowledge, but we CAN change. ***** Now, I'm tired and must get some sleep. I hope this makes sense tomorrow.

Mr Hammeroni, I had written to you as you mocked what you thought was a lack of fruit or results in my life: "Wasn't there mockery similar to yours thrown in Jesus' face as he hung on the cross." You responded with: "But you sir, are not Jesus. And why you continue to pretend to be, I have no idea.." Oh YES YOU DO! The pretense totally originated with you. In THIS case I was not pretending to be or even comparing myself with Jesus. There ARE many cases where we SHOULD act like, compare ourselves with, and even step into the shoes of Jesus Christ, and if in this case i were doing that and you objected I'd point out the false sense of humility that you would be pretending with such a criticism of me. But in THIS case I was not making a comparison and seeing similarities between me and Jesus, nor between me and Joseph, nor between me and Paul, the latter two you seemed to leave out of your criticism. No in THIS case I was comparing YOU with those who mocked Jesus saying that his difficult situation on the cross indicated a lack of connection between him and God. I was comparing YOU with a hypothetical critic of Paul or Joseph in their difficulties. Now, since you missed the point so badly, maybe you should go back and re-read my post. ****** Belle, You wrote: "Mike *thinks* he has the right to judge and question the fruit in anyones' life, but for someone to question the fruit in his life....well, that's just WRONG!" I didn't question the fruit n others' lives; I challenged THEM to question it. Too many people are content to think they are on the right track if they are happy. Conversely, when persecution and torment arise, many people (or their neighbors) think they must be on the WRONG track. It's in these kinds of situations that Dr taught us that experience is no guarantee for truth. We can't look at our experiences to determine what right doctrine is. God's Word guarantees that those who live godly lives are going to be pursued by persecution and mental pressure. If we apply correct doctrine in a correct manner that persecution won't catch us and we can deal with the pressure.

Jbarrax, You are not at all accurate when you say "whenever" and "every time." I do this sparingly and only on SOME threads. Sometimes I'm dragged in. ****** Bob, I'd be happy to bow out of your thread if you asked. I can't remember how I got so involved in this one. I did notice that you were somewhat absent before I got started. ****** templelady, Yes, I'm aware of the extra-biblical similarities between my message and Mormonism, but that's where the similarities end. I have spent MANY hours discussing LDS stuff with Mormons. They haven't a clue what's in the Epistles of Paul, no matter how much they claim to accept the Bible. Their doctrine vastly contradicts many important Biblical doctrines. PFAL, on the other hand, clarifies and fits in perfectly with the doctrines of the Bible. That'a a HUGE difference you seem to have overlooked. ****** Now, my head is spinning a little with all the other responses I'd LIKE to make that have accumulated against me since noon. If anyone gets missed, please bring up your points again. I have no idea how much energy I have left to cover two threads worth.

If I answered ALL the questions thrown at me I'd never have time to master PFAL, donchya know? I do my best if I think it will help anyone.

I have only a few minutes to talk. Would you like to now, or talk some later?

Hi Exy, Long time no talk. How did you know I would come back here?

Groucho, I didn't see the activity on this thread until just this afternoon. You asked me some of the same questions on the other thread I've been working on lately, " VPW's Source for the Law of Believing" and I gave some answers. These two threads have some same posters and similar posting, so I will answer more over there. It's complicated enough for me to deal with a barrage of questions from many people on even one thread, but two overwealms me. Let's shift the action over there, ok? See you later.

rascal, You wrote: "I have been on both sides of this issue" There's more than two sides! I'm offering the OTHER other side. I don't think you've tried out the side of meekly mastering written PFAL, AFTER it was all completed in 1985, and ONLY PFAL with no contamination mixed it. This has been strenuously avoided by absolutely every grad, and ESPECIALLY the top leadership. Refusing to do what dr told them to do from 1975 to 1985 is what all the nasty top leadership have in common with all the nice ones. Coming back to written PFAL is THE unturned stone. If you're done searching and are content with not being even close to doing ALL the things that Jesus Christ did, then you wont look there. In my search I left no stone unturned. I looked everwhere I could. ****** Garth and Groucho, I'd love to respond to the great depth and content of your posts, but I must be off to work. Maybe next time. Hold those thoughts (I'm sure yo will).

rascal, Because you are so focused on the flesh, you may have to wait for some of your close friends to come back to PFAL and they THEY might be able to show you the truths in there are bigger than Dr. You can't examine Dr's life for spiritual fruit. He's long gone. If you witnessed any of his sin first hand, it's STILL just a flesh observation. I think most of your "observations" is looking at the flesh testimony of a very few others who did see something (along with the chorus behind them who are also not first hand witnesses.) I feel for those who were hurt directly. In some limited ways I was one. I greatly pondered this dilemma, and saw that Uriah's family had it too. I searched God's heart for how to deal with it. You don't know written PFAL; you only know the TVT, the Twi Verbal Traditions, and the great misery they brought. That's all just about all ANY of us have in mind now when we think of PFAL. I was able to distinguish between the two ONLY after I came back and looked at what was actually written. If it helps any, what is written is NOT Dr, but the team effort that went into what got written. He had editors, and the plagiarism freaks will tell you that a lot of the material came not from Dr. I'm convinced that Dr was not the real author, but it came from God. If you insist on looking at the flesh and the flesh stories, then you will forever be blind to the great blessings that await us in written PFAL , blessings MUCH greater than the average American bounty you described.

CM, Tell me what fruit did Joseph see in his life at the point two days before Pharaoh sprung him from prison. Tell me what fruit did Paul see in his life as he wrote Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians from his prison cell. Wasn't there mockery similar to yours thrown in Jesus' face as he hung on the cross. You're not a very accurate living book. You're missing a few chapters. If you want to see the great joy I have you'll have to come back to the written forms of PFAL (not the verbal corrupted forms, rascal) and get it yourself. If you're such a great book, why aren't you out letting those who never heard the gospel read you right now. What are you doing here talking to those who already heard? ****** rascal, Gain does NOT prove godliness. There are lots of VERY devilish people with great wealth and happiness... for now. ****** Raf, For every invitation you've given me you've insulted me 50 times. That's not much motivation for me to come to church with YOU.

LG, Thank you, for your ability to write civilly in the midst of a bar room fight like this. I almost didn't see it slip by me in ruckus. You wrote: "What is it that you see in PFAL (all the writings) that you think is "gospel?" The whole collection is primarily exposition of a few parts of the Bible. In fact, most of the "Studies in Abundant Living" are just transcriptions of teaching sermons." I simply obeyed Dr's final instructions to master the written forms of written PFAL. This was somewhat out of desperation, and somewhat out of extreme curiosity. I was impressed at how well the devil had hid that last teaching from so many. For Dr's last teaching to be so totally lost to so many top leaders that said they loved him and that t hey followed his teachings, it got my attention. It was an extreme anomaly, like a burning bush that wasn't consumed. I am STILL running into grads who never even HEARD of his last teaching, thinking that "The Hope" was it. Once I came back and started seriously reading with meekness I saw MANY things I had forgotten or that had slipped past me unawares. *** You wrote: "Wierwille never claimed that his writings were "God's Word" or gospel. He claimed that they were essentially either keys to understanding the Bible or expositions of portions of the Bible." Well, THIS is one topic that slipped past YOU unawares. I have found about 90 places where Dr DID claim to be giving us God's Word, unlike the man-made attempts to re-construct and translate the ancient scriptures. Many of those 90 places are subtle, I'll admit that, but at least 20 of them are sledge hammers. We just got in habit of tuning them out. Maybe I'll do a thread on them. In the old GreaseSpot's PTs I did such a thread and got twenty into writing. If you want I can send you the text through this new board's PM system. In my studies I've seen that the text in between the many KJV verses Dr quotes are many astounding revelations. Many things are taught there about the return of Christ that are subtle but interesting enough to cause me to re-think everything I thought I knew about the Appearing. God slipped in the PFAL texts an amazing amount of information that only the meek and obedient can see. We were not meek and obedient to the revelations God fed Dr over a period of almost 43 years. Most of my previous activity in absorbing PFAL was spent in fine tuning my KJV verses in the wide margin, and I paid little heed to the text in between the verses Dr quoted. ******* bliss, Thank YOU TOO for your insights AND for your civility. Yes, I am locked in and have closed my mind. I've admitted that many times here. I searched until I was 50 years old and then decided what I was going to commit the rest of my life to. I would have like to devote a separate post to respond to you, but this board has a "squishing feature" that prevents that. Did you get my PM the other day?

rascal, I didn't label them. (I don't think?? It's been a heavy fight this morning) I think I asked you how you can tell, among the three possibilities, which one fits you. Those who think that gain is godliness are in for a rude awakening someday. The death and destruction you've seen is from NOT paying attention t the written message of PFAL. Those who suffered (me included) did so from winging it on the verbal traditions the grew up.

Mr Ham, You are not in a position to really examine the fruits in another person's life, only your own. ****** rascal, You wrote: "Mike, you disparage that which God has seen fit to supply by." Funny, I though the same of you. You spit on the revelations God gave to Dr and his team of editors and that they put into print. ****** Belle, You wrote: "Why are you and Alan so hell bent on judging, classifying and labeling people????? I don't get it!!" Well, I'll admit, Alan does seem to have a heavy hand, and I'd like to see the gentle side of him more. But don't you see the heavy hand of those who post in my face? Maybe you are blind to it because you engage in it yourself. You think you and others here have a good reason to be nasty, but you object when I respond in kind. I'm interested in bringing a positive message here. I see a lot of judgment and condemnation thrown at me for my efforts. When some try to thwart it I sometimes fight back. Why don't you see the attacks against me? . .

Belle, I edited out my comments to rascal that you just responded to, because I was trying to avoid the way this board squishes back-to-back posts from the same person into one post. You might want to move your response to below this one where I have little choice bu to squish three posts together. As for your latest post (yikes! this is getting complicated), here is my latest response: With those who are over the top, I can over top them. With those who are condescending, I can see if they area able to take it as well as they dish it out. I much rather prefer civil discourse. ****** Mr. Hammeroni, I'm much closer to BEING in their shoes than you know. Plus, I have put myself in their shoes, and I interact with them in a different way that with you others here. AND I do it in private. ****** and rascal, What makes you so sure it was God who blessed you. He makes His rain fall on the just and the unjust alike. It could have simply been your operation of principles that got you what you are happy with now, and the devil decided to not hassle you much. Or, your blessings could even be a direct bribe or reward from the devil. How can a person tell the difference between those three kids of blessings?

Groucho, You wrote: "So Mike, Seeing that you have admitted in another thread (The Word of God), that you are a "normal" person and not one of the "rare and special" people...how can you possibly trust your own experience of studying the writings of Mr Wierwille? __ Perhaps God tranformed you into one of the "special and rare" people and you are just to modest to admit it? __ ...because otherwise I'm confused. Are you saying that YOU can tell the difference between the true God and satan?" I was wondering if anyone was going to ask me that question. No, I'm not one of those special ones to get it directly. I got it first from reading with my 5-senses, and now am learning to see it directly by spirit. I'm simply in an early wave of those who see it in this normal manner and sequence. Why were the shepherds some of the very few in that early wave to see Jesus in his infancy? Why weren't the chief priests, the religious leaders, the scholars, the leaders in that first wave? Why weren't there thousands of the middle class there to see him in his swaddling clothes? I used to have these kinds of questions about that time, as well as the present. When I first got into the Word I was always wondering "Why me?" or more generally "Why US? Us rag-tag hippies don't deserve to see the light. Why aren't the majority of the people able to see that SIT is available to them?" I gradually got my answers as I got into very heavy and systematic witnessing. Somehow my very first witnessing excursion at twig was mall witnessing. The twigleader didn't call it that, though. Praise God, he said "We're going to the mall to have some fun tonight." I hadn't even had the class yet, but I was paired with a wonderful woman who also had a positive attitude. We had a wonderful time, and from then on I witnessed to everything that moved and a few that didn't. I saw first hand that the general population DIDN'T WANT IT! They genuinely had other priorities way above the things of God and it was obvious. With those who would mouth the words that they loved God and would attend to much religious activity, when I took close looks at their responses it was obvious that they were totally missing it on the first commandment (mentioned in the first 12 minutes of the film class) and that they were FAR from putting God first in their lives. Many would even mis-quote the greatest commandment as loving their neighbor as themselves. They were loving the image of themselves as being spiritual and being loving to their neighbors, but they didn't love God. As Isaiah put it, they drew near to their god with their lips, but their hearts were far from the True God. They would approach the Bible to see how much they could get from it, not to see how much they could contribute to God's plan. As Allan put it the other day, they acted in phileo because it made them feel good about themselves. I saw all this first hand in people I knew well and in people with whom I had a lot of witnessing contact... MANY people. They just didn't WANT it very much, much like Esau. That was what I saw in ordinary people. In people of great intellect I saw that they had an even greater impediment: their ego. They wanted to derive the truth so that they could get credit for it. In addition to their lack of desire for the True God, they had so much pride that there was no way they'd accept hearing it from a low lifer, a "downer and outer" like me. They were far from being like a Naaman who listened and acted on the words of his humble maid, and then listened to and obeyed the humiliating action required by the man of God. So, Groucho, which class of people do YOU fit in? Isaiah 57:15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

rascal, If you got out a map, and drew a circle around your house, how big a radius would that circle have to be before the circle contained 10,000 people who could claim the exact same level of blessings you just did? If you live in a city, I'll bet the circle is pretty small. How many of those 10,000 do yo think love God and put Him first in their lives? How many believe that Jesus Christ is physically alive, up from the dead, and soon to re-appear? How many? Try knocking on some doors if you want to be scientific about it. I did.

Has anyone here ever wondered how the family of Uriah received the Psalms of David? I'm talking about those in Uriah's generation, and several generations afterwards. I wonder how they were tempted to feel... ...no I don't. I just have to look at some posts here. I wonder how any in Uriah's family were able to resist that temptation... hmmm ...no clues in the posts... ...so far.

rascal, What makes you think you aren't already there? Some surface happiness, that's surely only temporary?

dmiller, I totally agree. He didn't thank me for the CONTENT of my posting, just the fact that I posted, and possibly because I stimulated other posts.

I've noticed over the years that many here think that I equate Dr receiving this abundance of revelations as some kind of reward for good behavior. I do not. Many denominations look at the "gift" of tongues as a reward for good behavior or being super spiritual. It is not. Just the opposite of being a reward after the fact, SIT is a means TO BECOME super spiritual. Similarly with Dr, those revelations were not a reward for him being a goodie goodie. I remember the Rock of Ages '72 movie (plus I was there) where Dr thanked God on stage that God had showered out His blessings not on a bunch of goodie goodies, but on "downers and outers like us!" Many of you may think that first I liked, loved, adored, and idolized Dr, and THEN I believed PFAL. NOT TRUE! I saw many, many grads going down that route in the 70's and I had my brakes on full to avoid that. Many of YOU people may have done that, so you think I am now doing it. I am not. It's just the opposite with me. I distanced myself from the man all the time he was alive, and only when he was 13 years cold in the grave did I get really excited about the written form of PFAL. The reason God gave the job (that's the JOB, not the reward) of writing PFAL (and collecting for all you plagiarism freaks) to Dr is not because he earned it or deserved it, but because he had the natural ability, he had the willingness, he had the balls to defy tradition, he had the tenacity, and most of all because he BELIEVED it, he believe God's call have him do it. Many, many times Dr said that his ministry was by grace, meaning he didn't earn it. How many of you all did not hear this or did not believe it? He also said, plus put into print, plus chiseled in stone "I wish I were the man I know to be." He knew what kind of man he could have been from the revelations he received and wrote to us, yet he knew he fell far short of BEING that kind of a man himself. I sometimes think that ONE of the reasons God chose Dr for this abundance of revelations is to show for all time the magnificence of God's grace and mercy. Another reason is to stop the mouths of all fleshly thinkers, who look at the flesh and judge merit there. When all is said and done there'll be NO PRIDE possible for religious people (like many posters here) when they do see that they are being judged by THIS gospel that God deemed fit to place in PFAL. It's a little like Jesus being born in a stable to confound the royalty. It's a little like God choosing Saul, a Christian deprogrammer, to receive the Great Mystery revelation. I Cor. 1:26-31 "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: "That no flesh should glory in his presence. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." No, it won't just be Craig & Co. who are humbled by the appearance of the Son and what he has to say. .

Raf, You wrote, attributing to me: "If not for Wierwille's writings, Jesus would not know as much as he does today." No, that's not my position. It's the revelation from God, the Father of Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ derives his knowledge. Since PFAL is revelation from the Father, Jesus respects it. A similar (but not identical) situation came up in the Gospels which bring up the SEEMING paradox that David was the anointed leader, yet he called the Son his lord. I'm winging this from memory, so please fine tune me if I got some wrong. I'm sure someone will, but I got the idea right. David was lower than Jesus, yet he received revelation from the Father that proved very necessary for Jesus. There's no paradox when you recognize that the revelation given to David was bigger than David and his position. If Dr's PFAL writings weren't by revelation (to him, or to others with fine tuning and timing by revelation to Dr) then I'd be in the soup and all your charges would be applicable. It all comes down to that. Now, who are YOU to decide when, where, and to whom God Almighty can give His revelations? Are YOU the Father's lord? I actually had some personal distaste for Dr at many times, and this was at it's peak in 1998. However, my search for the truth culminated in the recognition that the PFAL writings were bigger than Dr, so I changed my thinking. I know you don't believe me that I had my beefs with Dr, but then again, you're neither my lord NOR my judge, so you can stuff your opinions.

VPW is dead. Jesus Christ is ALIVE! I do not bow to Raf as Lord; that is for SURE!

No. He thanked me for my posting.

Has anyone ever seen comedian Emo Phillips do his little skit depicting the meeting of two religious people? It's quite funny. Two people meet in an airport lounge and gradually compare notes on their lives. They are overjoyed to discover that they come from the same religious backgrounds. They compare their identical tracks through the evolution of their church and celebrate one great doctrinal agreement after another, hugging each other to tears. Finally they come to one last item involving some synod split that occurred only a few years prior and that they are on opposite sides of this one last minor difference! With a sudden burst of hatred one draws out a dagger and plunges it into the heart of the other while screaming the words "Die, you heretic!" Raf, you remind me of that skit. Have you pondered much the fact that for nearly every element of doctrine you derive from your Bible, I stand in complete agreement with it? We both believe in Jesus as Lord, but as a man and not God, and that God raised him from the dead. We both expect him to judge us someday. I see that day as having arrived and you see it farther away. Besides my beliefs on Dr's authority to pen our instructions for being gathered together now, are you aware of any KJV verses we would fundamentally disagree on in content and not mere timing? I'm not. Maybe there a few.

My understanding is that WE normal people should not base doctrine on our experiences. God had to search far and wide for very special and rare people to which He could reveal His will to and trust them to DO His will with the message. These special people, prophets, are rare and had to be ready for the devil's high priority assaults on them to thwart the message. For these special (and hounded) people, who could tell the difference between senses and spirit and between the True God and satan, their spiritual experiences with the True God, recorded in writing, form the basis for our right doctrine.