Mike

WW, You wrote: "The Mikean pfal, however, leads AWAY from the Bible..." Yet, in my class materials nearly every page has Bible verses for study, and the net effect of the materials is to OPEN the Bible for students better than any other method in 2000 years. These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible. Remember, I never advocate my form of super charged PFAL to new people, only OLGs who have already had a lot of focused KJV study, and now after many years after the ministry meltdown many of them have shopped around other Biblical writers for a little balance as well. My message has always been a focus toward OLGs and it's "come back" to PFAL. As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?

A simple guy, My take on your comments is that you are forgetting that the gift of holy spirit does not affect the mind. Your comments on the finished work of Christ are true, but refer NOT to the whole thoughts in a believers mind that must be worked for. Your comments refer to the aquisituion of spirit. We were saved (given spirit) UNTO good works. It seems that good works and working out our own salvation (in the soul/mind category) have taken on a bad reputation among a certain strain of grads in the past 18 years, due to the heavy work load of the Corps program. And WW, I wish you wouldn't mis-represent me so.

Ok. I've said my peace too.

A simple guy, I was writing to you and then when it was done saw you posted again. So, I've withdrawn my post to read yours and then respond accordingly. *********************************************************** *********************************************************** *********************************************************** Ok, I read your post and i can see you're in a ministering-to-me mode and are just as unmeek toward me as I am toward you. Of course, why should you be meek to me? No reason at all. But how about meek toward Dr? That's what I argue below in the text I had alreaady written. *********************************************************** *********************************************************** *********************************************************** A simple guy, You wrote: “As far as what I've done wrong, I've never professed to having done anything right, quite the contrary. What I did profess was the one who makes us righteous.” You changed something. Previously, we were talking about having a correct and accurate understanding of the Word, getting it “right” or correct from obeying The Teacher we were given versus getting it incorrect. Previously were using the word “right” in the sense of “correct of having right thought patterns.” Now in this post your usage of “right” switches to spiritual righteousness, and you salute Jesus Christ as if you’re bringing him on your side of the argument. I don’t think you and I have any disagreement on the finished work of Christ and our completeness in him and our God given righteousness. We don’t have to go there. We’re in agreement on THAT doctrine. Let’s stick with using “right” in the sense of acting rightly toward the PFAL materials, as per the repeated and final instructions of The Teacher who gave us PFAL. Dr gave us all, especially Corps and leadership, explicit instructions in ’79 and in ’85, to master written PFAL materials. I’ve noticed that we all snubbed those orders. I’m convinced that it’s the “right” thing to do to not snub Dr’s orders any more. Of course, I’m assuming here that Dr issued those orders by revelation. If I’m wrong on that assumption, then my whole approach falls apart. If I’m “right” on that assumption, then YOUR whole approach falls apart. *** You wrote: “Go ahead ignore me, ignore what I've said, make the choice to continue with your dishonesty toward God, you don't hurt me in the process. Ultimately you deny what has been accomplished for you by Jesus Christ.” I wrote just above that I DON’T deny what Jesus Christ did for me. I also don’t deny the job that God gave us grads to do, but YOU are! What you deny is the great gift God gave us in PFAL by your snubbing Dr’s instructions as to how to work with those materials. I didn’t totally ignore what you said, I simply refused to discuss it with you in detail because you are not qualified to offer an “answer” from one and only one passage. I said I looked at your handling of ADAN there from a distance (fast skimmy read) and it looked just like how I would have handled it when I was a defiant student of Dr’s years ago, when I too was only casually and occasionally referring to PFAL instead of MASTERING IT! You wanted to jump the gun on what I was saying is a MASSIVE research project by skipping around the “all passages” method I was insisting on with your “one passage” method. *** You wrote: “Given the choice I'd much rather stand approved before him than you.” Let’s AGAIN stop switching the soul/mind/thoughts category to the spiritual and confusing the argument. I agree you stand approved before God based on YOUR rightly dividing of His Word. But that wasn’t what i was getting at in our discussion. We were talking about whether or not I could approve of you being fit to handle a passage in ADAN to deal with a complex issue. I was explaining to you why I refused to go with you in the direction you wanted to discuss it with me. I explained that you were disqualified in my eyes as worthy of handling these matters, in any sort of teaching or leading role because of: (1) your snubbing, along with me and all the OLGs, of Dr’s final instructions to master PFAL, and to start all over with a whole theology at the same time in 1985, AND (2) your re-snubbing of the same things in 2006 after becoming aware of them for a second time. The way you strut with a “thus saith the lord” attitude AND comfortably cite a passage from ADAN gives me cause to believe that you believe, or at one time did believe, that Dr taught us by revelation. So, how do you deal with the passages and tapes I quote here? How do you deal with that AC segment 5 quote where he said we had to almost memorize RHST? Do you think Dr wasted his final words on a triviality that doesn’t apply to you? Are those two nearly identical magazine article quotes, from the same issue, from his LAST written messages to us grads, ... are those two quotes new to you? How did you conduct your theological makeover Dr suggested in those two quotes? How long did it take? Did you use mastery of the PFAL materials in the process like Dr urged in his last gasps into a tape recorder? Why are you a defiant student of Dr’s? Why not try it HIS way, Dr’s way. Dr’s way is God’s Way if He taught him by revelation so he could teach us grads.

A simple guy, Time is not something I have to waste, so I will not debate you on your ground either. However, rather than “dissecting” your post for all it’s points, I’ll zero in on one point YOU GOT RIGHT. *** You wrote: “Rather than honestly examine what you wrote and study the materials I offered you've chosen to accuse me of being unfit to speak God's Word.” You got that one right! Yes, and yes! I agree with BOTH clauses of this sentence. I do indeed accuse you of being unfit to speak God’s Word. Because I have made that judgment on your unfit skills, why should I then waste my time honestly examining closely how you handle ADAN? It takes a lot of time to honestly AND closely look at something. It’s an investment. The way you’ve presented yourself, I judge you to be a bad investment of my time if I were to go where you want to go in this discussion. I steer myself in the directions I feel are a worthwhile investment of my time. *** How do I judge you unfit? Easy. You blew off Dr’s last teaching’s instructions AND you blew off his AC ’79 instructions, both of which were to master written PFAL materials. SO, you were twice disobedient to the man of God on these points by the time May, 1985 rolled around. A few months later Dr’s last magazine articles came out with the two quotes I posted above, and you blew them off, BOTH of them! *** Hey, I’m guilty of much the same, if not worse! But I changed when I was shown what I did. You blew off the above points NOT ONLY in 1985, but in 2006 as well, even after you were shown what you did wrong! You’ve not been fellowshipping nearly as closely with the God Who taught Dr and inspired his ministry as you THINK you have been. You’ve been totally defiant to The Teacher’s instructions for many years now, thinking that your ability to handle KJVs and NIVs and PFAL collaterals is sufficient. I don’t think you ability is sufficient. I think it’s a broken cistern. You’re as befuddled as Craig and Geer and all the rest of the Corps who blew off Dr’s instructions. Same disease: defy The Teacher, and do your own thing. Different symptoms: (I don’t want to go into that here.) *** I choose to be meek to The Teacher, not to one of his defiant students. So why SHOULD I waste my time going through and seriously considering your handling of an ADAN passage? Besides, it looks from a distance to be IDENTICAL to my handling of it years ago, when I was a defiant student. *** I gave you lucid explanation of WHY you had to first check out ALL of Dr’s writings on the same subject and you blew it off. You’re not meek. You can’t be taught this Word that God taught Dr and Dr taught IN PRINT to us, because you think you know it already. Dr said in 1979 and 1985 that you didn’t know it well enough. You think you can coast on your casual understanding of ADAN and discuss it in detail with me here, and I tell you NO! You have to start at the beginning again, like Dr TWICE urged in writing, his last writings, those two red quotes in post #325 above on this thread. *** I could delve into all the other points in your post, but why waste the time?

A simple guy, It’s grace that we can work. We have a responsibility to do the best we can as workmen, rightly dividing his Word. *** Let me try it another way. In Dr’s LAST writings to us, his last magazine articles, both appearing in the July/Aug 1985 issue of the Way Magazine Dr issued a challenge to all us grads, twice. The first one is in "Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice" on page 17, right column, in the upper half. There he says (with my highlighted fonts): "You have to honestly come to the place that you're willing to keep asking yourself, 'Where did I learn what I believe? How did I get to the place where I believe what I believe today?' For the most part, men believe what they have received from tradition and not from directly reading it in the Word of God." In other words, a self examination should be on-going. I see an implication here that we were NOT doing this at that time. I see that those who are quick to answer theological questions without first getting the whole story in view for a long series of examinations are STILL not experienced in self examinations of the kind Dr called for, which are complete doctrinal makeovers. When Dr says "men" above I see him primarily referring to leadership of the ministry. I don't see him teaching here about denominational churchgoers outside the ministry. Dr is addressing us grads and he’s saying we were believing was the verbal traditions that grew up within the ministry, what I have called TVTs. We were not (by that time) forming and maintaining beliefs from directly reading God's pure Word, the written material we were supplied in PFAL. We were forming beliefs not from written PFAL but from our own KJV or Greek research, the traditional approach, and drifting farther and farther from the written revelations God gave Dr and Dr gave us. This is why in his last teaching (and on many previous occasions) Dr stresses the written forms of PFAL for mastery. *** The second location of this challenge from Dr is in the Our Times Insight article on page 12, left column, lower half. There he writes: "We must honestly come to the place of asking ourselves: Where did I learn this? How did I get to the place of believing this? Who taught me this? The counterfeit is so much like the genuine, you have to know the accuracy of the Word to separate truth from error." The accuracy of the Word cannot be read from the KJV. The accuracy of the Word cannot be conjured up from stale memories, or learned from verbal traditions like sitting through the film class a lot of times. It is written in PFAL for us. PFAL is the genuine from which we can detect the counterfeit. *** In addition to the twice occurrence of this challenge in one magazine, he also twice (once in each article) decries the "dark clouds that hover over us" due to the traditions of men. I am convinced that the "us" Dr is referring to here is not rhetoric for "us human beings" nor for "us Christians throughout the world" but is referring to "us PFAL grads." I believe the traditions Dr refers to here are not things like the trinity or salvation by works. He's nailing our whole scale reverting back to tradition of searching for truth in the writings of men like the KJV, other versions, or the critical Greek texts. That job had been essentially finished by October 1982, as Dr reported at Craig's installation and on that week's SNS tape. In both of those articles he was urging us to take the REAL Bible as our only rule for faith and practice, not some version. *** In Session One Dr says that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God. Millions and millions of the world's population believe that their KJV or NIV or Greek texts are the Word of God. So how come Dr said in Session One that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the Word of God? It’s because the millions are WRONG and don’t know that those items are only mere tools to START finding God's will at best, and counterfeits at worst, if leaned on too heavily? How many people know that God commissioned Dr to commit to writing His Word like it has not been known since the first century? Hardly any. THAT is the greatest secret in the world today! The greatest literal secret in the world is that the written forms of PFAL comprise God's book, the Bible, the written Word of God. *** THAT these items were printed twice in the same magazine should have arrested our attention! THAT they also appeared in Dr's very last prepared articles should have arrested our attention. They should have been the theme at the Rock that year at the very least, but instead no one (hardly) even saw them. I plead guilty to this. Thank GOD! He's given us all a second chance here twenty years later!

A simple guy, I'm operating with the full awareness that ALL we OLGs disobeyed Dr's urgings to master written PFAL for ten full years, from 1975 to 1985. I intend to obey Dr's urging to master PFAL as per his last/lost teaching. I'm always on the lookout for grads who didn’t yet hear of Dr’s last/lost teaching to let them in on this crucial information they missed. I’m also, sadly, experienced at spotting grads who have no intention of getting serious about obeying Dr’s final instructions, even though they often may have an outward appearance of loving Dr and respecting what he taught. What he told us to do is simple, yet no one seems to be able to muster the honesty to do it. Many think that they did it enough, and that Dr wasted his final instructions on a triviality as far as they are concerned. If you want to wing it on what you think you know you will have no problem finding company. I know PFAL is God’s Word even if NOBODY believes it!

What the Hey, You wrote: “I can't speak for you or anyone else, but frankly I am more suspicious of the man (or the woman) claiming to be "of SPOTLESS character". Under that SPOTLESS surface there is always something rotten at the core.” I feel the same way. I was referring to this earlier, citing Dr’s 1972 Rock of Ages final teaching. It’s in the movie too. Dr said (paraphrasing) he was glad that God didn’t call a bunch of goodie-goodies to this ministry, but a bunch of downers and outers like you and me! Downers and Outers know that they have some serious work to do on their walk. Goodie Goodies don’t. Oftentimes they have such a good surface that they never look at the pride festering inside.

doojable, You wrote: “Mike, when I say things like, 'The most i would say...." or " if a certain point is conceded..." or some ilk - that does not mean that I have conceded to that point.” I understand. What I was referring to was only a “bone” of concession you threw me. I did use that word “bone” deliberately. You didn’t concede, but you did acknowledge the logical POSSIBILITY. It’s that acknowledgement that I was celebrating. It was ONLY a bone of concession, not a concession with any meat on it. *** You wrote: “As far and any further discussion regarding the works of vpw being revelation - it just doesn't fit for me.” I accept that, and thank you for the polite and rich discussion you DID provide. Would you like me to take over the thread for you so you can be dismissed? :) *** I also accept the fact that my lengthy post was more than you are ready to digest right now. May I suggest you bookmark that page and for future reference? *** You wrote: “Somewhere in there I feel like the cart is pulling your horse - but I cannot quite pin it down well enough for you.” I think you are correctly sensing the angst that drives me to write with the intensity I do. I recognize it too, and seek to refine with agape daily. I have had the strong sense since 1987 that we grads are in a great spiritual emergency. The more I work this Word we were given the more I can relax in the expectation of God’s Final Victory coming.

A simple guy, Contrary to Raf’s expectations, I am hungry, but not for quick off the cuff answers. I’m hungry to master ALL the clues Dr left us and that takes time. Earlier you wrote: “We speak the Word, what other "job" do we have to accomplish that wasn't already accomplished by Christ?” The Body of Christ has to function. It has a job to do. It has to deal with the Bride sooner or later, so there may be work involved there. Christ’s accomplishments for us, it seems to me, are accomplished, but there’s more to do after that. *** Later on you posted some on some passages in ADAN. I just read them the other day. I see them every so often, but I’m searching out all the other places where the topic comes up as well. This new administration topic is huge. I don’t expect to charge into it in a linear fashion as it seems you want to do. Citing one passage is only the first step, and after that the path bifurcates wildly. There are two key chapters in I Corinthians and the two key chapters in Thessalonians plus an assortment of other verses we need to put on the table. Then add to that all the scattered KJV verses with identical words. Then add all the scattered KJV verses with non-identical but topically related words. Then there are all the PFAL passages that deal with those verses to add to the stack, plus all the scattered PFAL references that are topically related or identical word usage related. The few items I threw on the table need not a quick dealing with citing one PFAL passage, they need a thorough going over like the above listings suggest, and THEN these issues can be dealt with better. We need to be at least somewhat deeply into the mastery of PFAL to even begin to address these things with any sense of surety and finality. Do you get it? Dr told us that our understanding of what he taught us was insufficient in 1985. Unless a grad has been into those books a lot over the past two decades a lot has leaked out since then, so our understanding is even more insufficient. I think that means we who have not yet mastered PFAL should not be cranking out answers to issues brought up for discussion but seeking out ALL the page references where these scriptures, words, and even general ideas come up in PFAL. I just don’t think any of us are qualified to crank out answers to these questions, we should be HUNGRY for the answers and seeking them out, but not resting on our laurels and arm chairing an answer in a few hours. I’ve been collecting page references and tape references in Dr’s record for 8 years now and I have over a hundred items on this topic. I’m still finding more. I’m all for a discussion of all so far found, as well as a continued search for more. I’ve laid a few cards on the table, but there are like 90 more, AT LEAST. We’ve got to go slow and start at the beginning. The fact that every one of us OLGs dropped the ball 20 years ago, letting Dr’s final instructions slip through our fingers. We let the ministry slip through our fingers. We should be so humbled that we don’t trust ourselves to shoot from the hip and crank out theories and answers on these items I bring up. We should be proposing research strategies, collecting and categorizing lists of page references, even compiling a concordance of Dr’s books. Cranking out answers, or judgments on proposals even, should be on our schedules way down the road. Just the phrase “dead in Christ” need a huge amount of work. What kind of dead is it referring to? Is it only referring to one kind of death? What about the “in Christ” sub-phrase in there? Who has ever looked at I Thess 4 with this “in Christ” phrase in focus. Who has chased down all the places where Dr used the phrase “in Christ” in his text, let alone TAUGHT ON the phrase? I’m not laying my cards out (the ones I have so far) so that you guys can spin them the way your non-mastered understanding of PFAL would spin them. I’m not offering out some of the things I’ve seen so that you folks can pass judgments on them or try to fit them together. I’m not even showing you the whole puzzle, so trying to solve it is premature at this point. I’m offering these things to show you that there’s exciting work to do in coming back to PFAL and mastering it deeper than ever before.

Good questions. I can work with you on some of them, but I'm off to work right now. SUPER briefly I can outline some things. (by SUPER I mean I retain the right to drastically edit and add to the this folowing): 1. There is a new intriguing phrase that rises up in GMWD: "the ministry of reconcilliation of Jesus Christ" 2. We need to work and re-work the phrase “dead in Christ” and this takes time. 3. There are lots of trumpets, even for different groups. We need to re-think what the “air” means in I Thess 4. Is there a connection between the trumpet and the air? If trumpet means teaching by revelation, then the 1942 promise could be the opening event, God intervening with His Word. 4. We need to remember that sometimes our initial impression of an instantaneous process reported in the Bible can be an abbreviation and then we find that there are lots of events compressed in there. We are fixated on the mid picture of the whole Gathering taking place in an atom of time, and I think we need to drop that from our thinking. I’ve cited passages above to this effect. There’s precedence too, the prophets and angels who wanted to see if the sufferings and the glory of Christ were a compression or not. I can see the 1942 promise as the sound of a trumpet that’s STILL sounding today for those grads who open the books. It’s not a momentary compressed event but it’s has many phases and events contained within. 5. An event that also is a possible administration change marker is the Living Victoriously class. The entire year of 1982 has stunning things documented in Dr's tape and written record regarding SOMETHING that changed, and it wasn't Craig's coronation. I can provide more on this later. When I return (no pun intended) I’ll try to re-post many of the details, to fill in the gaps of the above, that I have posted before here.

bliss, I found one of the references that I happened upon just a few weeks ago in the first chapter of the Green Book. Here is TNDC p. 14, 15: “The mystery, so important that it was kept secret since the foundation of the world, is that all born- again believers, Jews and Gentiles, would be fellow- heirs of Christ and that Christ would be in every one of them. Imagine that! When Jesus Christ was here upon earth, He could only be at one place at one time. But after He ascended into heaven, and God had given the power of the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost, then Christ could be in every born-again believer. Wherever a believer is, there Christ is present. Had the devil known this mystery he would never have crucified Jesus. Through Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension, power hitherto unknown in history was made available. The devil was totally unaware of God’s plan, as told in I Corinthians.” Why has this passage not been discussed by the “absent Christ” accusers here? Because it cuts across their thesis. I remember when JAL was spreading this idea all around in the late 80’s that we were robbed of the presence of Christ. At first I thought he was right until I started finding things like the above passage in the books. This was one of the first alerts I had that the TVTs differed greatly from the written teachings. When I showed JAL some of the “non-absent Christ” references he just blew them off. So do promulgators of the same theory here. You have been hoodwinked by them to think that Christ is absent in Dr’s books and that he taught Christ as absent in our lives. Nothing could be farther from the truth! *** Look what else is in that same passage above! Dr uses the word “Jesus” all alone TWICE in that paragraph. Another TVT that arose, due to our sloppiness and not Dr’s teaching, was this taboo on saying “Jesus” without the word “Christ” in there. What a bunch of garbage has been spread about the PFAL writings! The only ones who can see the lies being told about PFAL are those who actually open the books and do their own thinking. The rumor mill directs most people’s thinking.

bliss, I do not believe Christ is absent. I do not believe PFAL teaches Christ is absent. The whole idea of Christ being taught in PFAL to be absent is a HUGE distortion of what is actually taught in the books. In the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) Christ became more and more absent, but he is taught to be totally present accessible to us. I was planning a separate thread on this sometime, or posting my documentation on one of the other threads that focus on this. I see Christ’s presence being taught all the time in PFAL. Want to see some page references and quotes sometime? Those who promote here the idea the Christ was taught to be absent do not present those passages of PFAL that teach otherwise.

Hi A simple guy, Did my response to WW answer your question to me opening your recent post? You wrote: “I addressed you because I was curious about what administration you think we’re in. You seem to be saying we’re not in the grace administration anymore.” Actually it looks to me like it’s even MORE grace that’s now available. But I can understand you wanting to ask me that. This new administration stuff totally blew my mind when I first came back to PFAL. It was the LAST thing I ever expected to find there. In my wildest dreams I never could have seen me saying things like “It’s TIME!” but here I am doing it. *** That was a nice summary of your life you posted. I’d like to discuss a little of it. You wrote: “...I spent many years in TWI. All classes, WOW 2x, Corps, I left before finishing the Corps and was never really in any leadership position, praise God.” It sounds to me like you were in an “unofficial” leadership capacity. *** You wrote: “I’ve continued to study the materials from my time with TWI. However I believe the scriptures are what the PFAL materials were directing us toward. If the materials had any validity it was in showing how the scriptures interpret themselves.” Well, if you want things simple, what we have left of the ancient scriptures and how they are to be reconstructed from the fragments, and translated is FAR from simple! The PFAL materials Dr produced ARE simple. As I argued in my lengthy post, I see PFAL as not only containing keys to unlock the ancient scriptures but also much more. The first time through was mostly that: keys to help us fix up the most glaring problems with the ancient scriptures, but I see much more in there now in my second time through. If PFAL is only a man-breathed Bible aid, then I can see you point about it merely directing us to (and somewhat simplifying) the complicated situation of the ancient scriptures. But if this Bible aid were actually God-breathed Bible aid then I can easily see God packing much more in there for us. *** You wrote: “And yes I’m aware of VPW’s last public teaching, which wasn’t the first time that material had been presented, as I’m sure you know. I left in the late 80’s when LCM started having his melt down.” Ditto for my exit timing. Yes, I’ve seen that Dr started slowly urging top leadership to master PFAL materials in the mid 70's and he kept on doing it to the end, with greater and greater intensity. It just makes great sense to me that since no one really took him up on this advice and things went sour, then why not try it and see what happens. I did, and I was very surprised at what I found. *** You wrote: “...That we were sinners, that we couldn’t earn our salvation, that Romans 1-3 is as applicable to the spiritual walk as Romans 10:9-10, and that the real point of the Word of God is to reveal Jesus Christ. While all of this was taught in various contexts and materials, the sense of relegating our own identity to the grave and accepting the identity of Christ was rarely believed among those I saw in TWI. LCM was the epitome of this in my opinion. I’ve also learned things about VPW that I find… troubling.” VPW was troubled too about his failing to be the man he knew to be. I agree with you that we all are sinners. This is one reason I can’t get excited and focused on VPW’s sins like so many here do. It was troubling to me that so many of us fell short, but the ballgame isn’t over yet. I see that Moses and Paul fell short at times, yet they were still able to help us in our walk. Ditto for VPW. He is still helping me via the writings he produced at God’s direction. *** I agree that it’s grace. It’s even grace that we are ABLE to do some good works, that we are ABLE to study to show ourselves approved, that we can work to gain a more thorough and more accurate knowledge of His Word and will. I know that knowledge puffs up if it’s not knowledge to help the knower serve others, and that this was a terrible failure in TWI. When I seek more knowledge I keep this in mind. *** You wrote: “As a living lord and head of his body I trust him to reveal God’s Word to me.” This is admirable. I want to add to it. The HOW that God selects to reveal His Word to us is FIRST written and then direct. As we do our best to work (remember it’s grace that we CAN work) the written Word He has supplied us. We were taught that revelation begins where the five senses leave off. From the "16 Keys To Walking In The Spirit" in the Advanced Class we were taught that "What you can know by the fives senses, God expects you to know." After we know what we can naturally, then God can teach us the spiritual point of view, and the arena for accomplishing all this is in that set of materials Dr identified in his most important final words addressed to us all. It is with the collaterals books that we need to spend a lot of time if we want the fullness of what God has made available. *** You wrote: “Where he is not the subject I do not believe we have the Word.” Sometimes he IS the subject and it’s not immediately obvious. Remember, God has warned us that his second coming would be “like a thief in the night.” He can be present yet hidden if there’s a veil over our eyes. I see PFAL as God’s way of removing that veil. The contents of PFAL is the mind of Christ we are to put on. *** You wrote: “I no longer see my life in terms of spiritual levels to attain to, I couldn’t have attained to anything without Christ. I know there is a maturing process but that isn’t what determines our communion with God, or how “spiritual” a man is. I took off my nametags and I couldn’t be more thankful.” Yes, it seems one of the big things leadership forgot was that gift ministries are a gift TO THE CHURCH not to the leader who operates it. It was terribly forgotten that the only reason someone is placed in a leadership position is to serve others not themselves. I think it’s a noble goal to grow to a greater spiritual understanding level from which greater service can be given. I can relate to your backing off from the counterfeits of this noble process because they were terribly discouraging to me too. We can revive our drive to work hard (remembering that it’s grace that we CAN work hard) to grow and serve more by coming back to the simplicity in PFAL.

WordWolf, The topic of administrations is not one I am totally comfortable with posting on because I’m still studying it out. I am not yet sure about the difference between Dr’s uses of the word “age” and the word “administration.” I’m also not sure about the clean delineation of all the administrations' beginning and ending points. Some seem to have fuzzy borders, like the beginning of the Christ Administration. It’s also not yet clear to me if the beginning of some administrations occurs at the same time for everyone. For instance, I see many people going to churches where the people, for all practical purposes, are clearly living in the Christ or Law Administrations. When I post that the administrations have changed what I MOSTLY mean is that new things were placed by God on the available list, new things can be claimed by believing that previously were only a hope. Dr brought up this idea at Living Victoriously in Hope. That passage is electrifying. I’ve posted on it here, and can resurrect that post sometime if it was pruned. As I get more clear on the administrations I will clarify any mistakes I may have made in using the word administration to indicate what I so excited about here. The best I can see it we ARE in a new administration and I post this much to stimulate discussion. There’s an interesting page in GMWD’s last chapter, “The Final Victory,” where Dr explains something that relates to all this. The first two paragraphs of that chapter read (with my bold fonts): “The great hope of the Christian Church is the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him. There are aspects of Christ’s return which we find most clearly explained by God’s rightly-divided Word. In order to understand the coming of Christ, we must also understand “the mechanics” of his coming. Jesus’ first coming began with his conception and birth and ended with his ascension, over thirty years later. There were many significant phases and events during this time. In this, the second coming is similar: it will also cover a period of time and encompass several significant phases and events. __ There are four basic events included in the times of the end, when Christ returns...” Your rejection of the idea that we could be in one of these early phases or events in the Appearing Administration is based on your pre-formulated theology which includes a pretty detailed timeline. In my lengthy post I argue that we need to completely revamp our time lines and mind pictures of the Return. I’ve started from scratch and am building an understanding from within PFAL exclusively. I don’t try to fit it into preexisting theologies. The expectations people had of how Christ’s first coming was to play out were inaccurate, and as a result many events and phases of that administration took place for years without those theologians even knowing it. I say the same is happening now. All the common mind pictures and time lines of the Appearing phases and events need to be thought through from what is freshly revealed in PFAL. Another reason I am not satisfying you with how few details about administrations I bring forth is seen in how Dr originally taught us in the PFAL book. There he writes: “As far as I have been able to study the integrity of the Word of God, there are these major administrations in The Word: (1) the Original Paradise, (2) the Patriarchal, (3) the Law, (4) the Christ Administration, (5) the Church, (6) the Appearing, and (7) the Final Paradise or Glory Administration.” That phrase “As far as I have been able to study...” gives me reason to pause a little, although I recently saw something else he wrote (forget where) where the number 7 comes up more strongly. But then again, here he uses the word “major” in the PFAL book quote above, too. If there are 7 major administrations, can there be some “minor” administrations too? This idea of a “minor” administration is related to the idea I reported in my lengthy post about PFAL being ADDRESSED ONLY TO GRADS. I’ve toyed with the idea of a minor administration set up just for us grads in order for us to accomplish a goal, a job, related to the Return. I’m being honest with you about the weak areas of my research to show you I’m still learning.

I know BG Leonard was still into the "gifts" of the spirit instead of the manifestations of the spirit as late as 1986. Look WordWolf, I don’t want to get bogged down in the minutia you think is important. I have my own minutia I want to get on the table, so please excuse me from your rant about Dr doing bad. I want to focus on the good he did. Do you MIND? I will focus on that good. BTW, For me, as a 60’s hippie, there’s NO WAY anyone like BG Leonard could have gotten through to me. If it weren’t for been-to-Woodstock-naked-and-tripping type hippies telling me: “Ok, he LOOKS just like a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher, and he SOUNDS just like a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher, and he IS a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher... but he’s cool anyway!” If Dr hadn’t come with that endorsement from my hippie twig friends, I’d have NEVER given vpw 5 minutes worth of listening. And there were thousands of “downers and outers” just like me who’d have NEVER heard one verse of God’s Word if it hadn’t been for Victor Paul Wierwille and PFAL. I was there at the '72 Rock when Dr used that phrase to describe us all, including him: “downers and outers.” I completely reject all your sob stories for BG. BG had not the genius to get his stuff over the world. Look how God worked with Jacob. Jacob was a go-getter. He bent the rules. He got the job done. My hippie friends would have NEVER endorsed BG to me. Dr was able to relate to us hippies and we moved what God was teaching Dr around the world. The books got written, printed and distributed world wide. They are ready to bless any grad who walks away from all the useless focus on sin and scandal, whether factual or exaggerated or invented. I an just not interested in engaging in endless discussion of pointless finger pointing and bitter blame gaming. There are wonderful good things to be found in the books.

Dr did BG Leonard a great service. No one would have ever heard of him had it not been for Dr. WW, you oversimplify. Dr cut out a lot of items from all of the people he learned from. He contradicts Bullinger and others in many places. He put it all together in one place where they only had some good pieces jammed up with bad pieces in their classes. The end product of what Dr put together is VASTLY superior to the end products of any of the men he learned from. The men Dr learned from were blessed to give to us God’s family. I refuse to respond to your evil thinking of a man who did much, much good. I experienced the Way of a Father (God) with His family. I’m sorry if you didn’t.

I'm GLAD he did what he had to do to get us taught. It was the Way of a Father with His Family, not a University! God was ministering to His children His Word and He was confounding the ways of man in the process. I even LIKE the way Dr "covered his paper trail" or however he put it. When I read the books now I'm not bothered by useless citations. The flow of the text is smoother. I LIKE it. I thank God He showed Dr where to find so many good things to place before me. I thank God He showed Dr HOW to place those things before me.

I just did and it's empty.

Modaustin, I’m not sure if you have any familiarity with my posting history, but I do punctuate it with a little tongue in cheek at times. If you want me to explain my jokes to you I can, but it looks to me that you hadn’t had a chance to go back and read the pages that are referenced in the remark of mine you are questioning. If I am to be brief then I’ll refrain from recapitulating those pages and wait for you to read them. *** I have MANY conversations here. More than most. I also sometimes exercise the unofficial ignore function with some people who are rude and abusive toward me, and sometimes I use humor on them. If you see an abusive post of mine I’d be happy to deal with it on your terms. Edit Addition: Did you want to know about the WayGB remark too? I've posted that about five times before. Gads, you guys, can't a guy go to the bathroom? I didn't even see Maudaustin's post in th eflurry of posting.

WW, You wrote: "We're supposed to trust your version of what they said?" No. What I say is just window dressing. The real action is when we get into actual PFAL passage quotes. *** And your STILL abbreviating the process. And your still insisting on stiff Academic Standards when it was really a family deal. Dr trained those committee members. Many of the chapters were previously seminars and summer school classes. They knew what they had to write. Dr had plenty of access to the drafts and galleys. God and Dr supervised the process.

Hi doojable, I’d be happy to discuss any parts of my lengthy post with you in the weeks to come. I’d be honored if you even just read the whole thing, but if you don’t have that much time I won’t be angry. A lot of what I write is really for lurker consumption, even WayGB. You wrote: “Dr compiled the works of many men before him - Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, et al. Don't all these men also deserve the "revelation status" that is being ascribed to vpw?” Yes. Dr assigns them that status on a SNS tape. Want the quote? I’ve posted it before. Anyone remember it? This is a spot quiz. I’ve posted it about 5 times in the last three years. *** You wrote: “Now one only one point - I DID work for years to master the written material. I didn't come to the same conclusion as you, Mike. I dont' really know what else to say on this matter.” I know what to say. It’s the second time through PFAL that we are called to. Dr constantly calls us to “come back” to the Word in PFAL. There’s more available now, today, than there was to you when you first worked on mastering it. By the way, I should point out that your first research effort, though admirable, sounds like (I could be wrong) it did not last very many years. I’m on 8 years now and I’m nowhere near done. I also suspect (I could be wrong) that you never did any PFAL word studies, it takes many years to build up even a partial mental concordance of PFAL vocabulary. I also suspect (I could be wrong) that there are other investigation tools you didn’t get around to using so your mastery effort could PROBABLY have been beefed up had you had the time and inclination back then. Here’s another thing to consider: The book and magazine set of Dr’s writings was not complete until mid 1985. If you did your first time through research project before that date, then there’s tons of new material available for you to include in the mix. *** Anyway, regardless of your particular situation, since it’s a new administration, that means that new things are available to be administered. It’s a new Age as my lengthy post discusses. In this new administration one of the first things made newly available is a MUCH deeper understanding in reading the PFAL revelations. I could do a whole thread on the 50 some PFAL page references I have collected where Dr uses this peculiar phraseology where “come back” and “return” and “really begin” come up. Much of the PFAL material is more applicable now than it was then. There are things in there that can now be seen as prophecy of the ministry meltdown and then the RETURN to this Word we were given. The first time through PFAL it was only available to receive a 5-senses understanding of the material. The second time through PFAL it is NOW available to receive a SPIRITUAL understanding. There’s another whole thread topic: my collection of PFAL page references on spiritual versus 5-senses understanding. *** Instead of threads for all these major topics I’ve been ticking off lately, I may instead or in combination do the topics as issues of a monthly or weekly newsletter for those grads who want to study these things out. Anyway, doojable, it was fun writing the response to your post in my head for 6 weeks and then finally typing it out in the past few days. Please take your time reading it. I hope it will be a fun time for you too, an exercise in new thought.

Hi A simple guy, I’m honored that you addressed your first two posts here to me. Please allow me to be your official greeter. Welcome! From whence come ye, and what is thy shtick?

Hi WW, I think you over abbreviated the situation when you reported that some of Dr's books were written by committee on your thread in “About the Way.” First, nearly every high ranking University Professor has a team of graduate students writing for him at times. It’s always highly supervised. I could elaborate, but my time is limited just now. I knew some of the committee members, and just like Dr’s editors, I discussed this phenomenon of committee written books with them over the decades.

dmiller, I think he knew what he was doing and did properly here. Let me remind you of this: Please excuse my formatting and truncation in re-presenting the following quotes: First dmiller wrote: “Docvic (plain and simple) took from other's works, and passed it off as his own.” Then oldiesman wrote: dmiller, sorry but I am going to have to disagree in part with you, and I base my belief on the following: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit -- that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then I worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped.” Victor Paul Wierwille, 1972 The Way Living In Love Elena Whiteside page 209 The previous statement by VP disproves that he “passed it off as his own.” In 1972 he said it wasn't original; ... if you don't believe he said that, there it is, right before your eyes. He deserves credit for not passing it off as his own, but rather saying “lots of the stuff I teach is not original.” If he was trying to hide something, and pass off all of this as his own, he would not have made the previous statement, nor have other authors' books, from whence he learned, selling in the Way Bookstore for all to read.