Mike

You're making up rules and then complaining he didn't follow them. It was a FAMILY, not a University or a brute marketplace. His job was to teach us ABOUT GOD in those books, not about all the details of where he got the pieces from. Those details were not important to us then, and they SHOULD have no importance to us now. It's the CONTENT of the books that's important to us, not the origins. We need the CONTENTS of Dr's books to be alive in our hearts, not the soap operas surrounding the writing of them.

Ex 10, My haughty attitude is manufactured to SOMETIMES match and even exceed the haughty attitudes with which I am faced. It's a response to your friends' lack of decency towards me. You seem to tolerate such an attitude in them but not me. I can have a very civil conversation with anyone here, but if they show me grief, I SOMETIMES show them I can match their attitude, and that it doesn't impress me nor scare me when they are so belligerent towards me. If you want to discuss some aspect of PFAL with me I can be very civil. Try me. But if all you wan to is attack me, watch out, I may just hit you with your own medicine.

dmiller, You wrote: "I DID *poo poo* his putting his name on their work" Please let me remind you of this: (With my re-formatting and truncation in re-presenting the following quotes) First dmiller wrote: Docvic (plain and simple) took from other's works, and passed it off as his own. Then oldiesman wrote: dmiller, sorry but I am going to have to disagree in part with you, and I base my belief on the following: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit -- that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then I worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped.” Victor Paul Wierwille, 1972 The Way Living In Love Elena Whiteside page 209 The previous statement by VP disproves that he “passed it off as his own.” In 1972 he said it wasn't original; ... if you don't believe he said that, there it is, right before your eyes. He deserves credit for not passing it off as his own, but rather saying “lots of the stuff I teach is not original.” If he was trying to hide something, and pass off all of this as his own, he would not have made the previous statement, nor have other authors' books, from whence he learned, selling in the Way Bookstore for all to read.

Ex 10, WHAT are you talking about?

What the Hey, Good point. People here poo poo PFAL. People here poo poo Dr's learning from teachings of others and passing on to us. People here praise the same teachings of others. People here are confused!

Ex 10, Yes, I am serious. I have never been a misogynist, nor have I ever acted like one here. ********** dmiller, If you want to see the sense that I see in it you must think it through from my perspective. Try believing it temporarily, and think through the details. Here's a start: if it were the case that PFAL were God-breathed, then think through all the strategies the adversary would be motivated to use to deflect attention from it. The adversary's top priority is to get us to doubt the integrity of God's Word. You got to be willing to slog past all the camouflage and subterfuge that is this website grist for the mill. All the stories that fascinate people here you got to find ways to suppress in your thinking as you think through PFAL’s God-breathedness. You got to open the books a bunch to see it. You can't arm-chair it at your computer. Open the books!

Dmiller, Please calm down. When we get into the details that are written to us you will see light. You seem to be in an unusually bitter mood tonight. Where else are you going to go for some good news? There are good things in PFAL for us to find. Let's look for them! Ex 10, I have no idea why Raf or you hold that kind of a grudge on me.

alfakat, There was a time when you saw the benefit of PFAL and you devoted your life to it. What I am saying is that your investment was NOT a waste and that you will reap good from what you sowed back then. This should be GOOD news for you.

Raf, I wondered the same thing. I'm sticking to my methods, though: assume the text God-breathed at the start and proceed from there to search how it fits. ******* dmiller, You wrote: “...did someone say the gloves were off??” They’ve always been off for you and others who attack me. It’s ME that the restrictions have been taken off here. Usually I have to walk on eggshells, because if readers hit the squawk button over my proPFAL posts on other threads, then I hear from management. Here on THIS thread no one can complain on ME. Sorry if this disappoints you. *** You wrote: “...the film class means NOTHING, while the books are EVERYTHING?” No. Who ever said it was nothing? I said it was introductory, but wrongly treated as ultimate. Conversely, the books were often treated as mere souvenirs of the class by older grads, while the film class was thought of as ultimate. *** You wrote: “The SAME DOCTRINE was taught in both.” Not so. I once started a project comparing the whole film class with the written versions of the same text passages, like I just did with the “abundance” issues for rhino. I never finished it. By the time I got to Session 3 it expanded to be too large a project to finish. Plus, there were many written portions with little or no corresponding portions in the film. When I pulled my “time travel” trick on posters here two years ago I demonstrated this, as well as grads’ lack of familiarity with the books RELATIVE TO their greater familiarity with the film. The “time travel” section in the film class is only few fleeting sentences, but is expanded into an entire chapter in WWAY titled “The Third Heaven.” About 74 posters were debating with me in those months, and none of them could remember the fleeting sentences of "time travel" in the film class, even though they had pretty well mastered that soundtrack. The corresponding chapter in the book was far from all of their aging memories because they had spent much less time in the books. In general, there’s much more detail in the books, and it’s much more accurate, AND it lends itself much greater to the idea of finding the hidden meanings God impregnated it with. The film class was never made available to us for such finds, while the books were. *** You wrote: “The film was what was offered to prospective *inductees*, not the books. The magazine was an *offshoot* production.” Not so. The books were either given to new students or promoted to them in the class. The magazine was given to new students of the class, a one year’s subscription. The magazine was declared by Dr to be an intimate part of the class. *** You wrote: “The films, the books, the way rags ALL promoted docvic and his teachings.” Garbage! They promoted to me the good God and His Son! *** You wrote: “Docvic was promoting himself, what *ministry* he thought he had, and made a pile of dough (from folks like you and I) as a result.” What did he do with the dough? He put it right back into the ministry. You have a bad attitude towards a man who helped me, and many thousands like me, very much. If you want to communicate with me with any credibility you can’t deny this or spit on the GREAT benefit of PFAL like you just did. *** You wrote: “Now you might look for *hidden words* in the way rag, but to me ---- it is a magazine, with some articles, nothing else.” What’s important to me is that in the magazine we have Dr’s printed words, and he spent much more time on fine tuning his printed words than his spoken/recorded words. Hey, if you think that a magazine is lesser than a book, I’m gonna challenge that all your KJV reading doesn’t count, because it’s ONLY a book, and the originals manuscripts were scrolls. How trivial! I tried to pin you down on your mag-o-phopia before and you dodged it. Printed is printed! Dr said it’s “book and magazine form” that his revelations took form in. *** You wrote: “Docvic had a *machine* rocking and rolling, and he used all *available* resources to keep that sucker bringing in the cash.” So that as many people as possible could hear the Word. He used the population’s fetish with cash to keep a lot of creeps out of the ministry and I’m glad he did. He insisted that searchers put their money where their mouth was and that made the classes all the more successful. It filtered out many of the non-serious students. He paid himself a salary of $100 per week and he worked longer hours than most people in the ministry. You attitude here stinks! Dr could have gone into business and made money that he could have spent time consuming, but he didn’t. He was always working and teaching. This I saw firsthand. *** You wrote: “So he had a *last lost teaching*. Big deal. __ So what if it was on tape, and in print, and all us OLG's *missed* it???” I explained “so what” before. It means we tuned him out and we can’t blame him for the doctrine not working. That we were sloppy students is the whole key to my making a big deal out of his last teaching being lost. We can’t say he blew it when it’s so obvious that WE blew it! *** You wrote: “To me --- it one last desparate attempt by the MAN to continue a *ministry* (as a legacy to himself), after he was gone. __ His *last lost teaching* (either in print, or on tape) was a feeble cry for recognition AND NOT THE COMMAND OF THE LORD!” If you look closer, though, you’d see a pattern over a full decade of his attempting to pull us away from the rotten TVTs that had grown up in the ministry and get us back to the written accuracy of what he taught. It’s when you open the books frequently that you'll see all this for yourself, how much more superior the written teaching is than the tattered remnants of the verbal teaching you retain in memory.

Mark, Yes, all three categories, is what I remember too.

dmiller, Yes, that was “Masters of the Word – Mastering PFAL” and when it was pruned out last year it was the longest thread in GSC history... I think. These PFAL threads always stir up a lot of thought, because it’s where the real heart of the ministry was. *** Oakspear, This same idea you brought up here of Dr asserting that he had the ultimate say on Biblical research (stemming from the 1942 promise to him) was previously brought up by you on doojables “Ok, once and for all” thread, and I then commented on in my lengthy post on that same thread, in the green font text in the middle, and I thought I’d reproduce it here. The reason I’m doing this is because later on this thread I want to bring up many of the “Thus saith the lord” statements Dr spoke and printed. These statements fit into a context, a certain atmosphere you and I sampled in those early days, where Dr was constantly claiming by the attitude he maintained, that, being God’s appointed spokesman, he was the ultimate authority on Biblical research. Here’s how I put it in doojables’s thread discussing with her your similar comments there. Some of us were there, in the good old days, when Dr’s many verbal claims and hints of being God’s spokesman were still in the air. Dr’s authority to teach us what God taught him (his “thus saith the lord” attitude) was in the air EVERYWHERE in those earlier 70’s. It’s just that nobody ever flashed on the idea that, in addition to the God-given ability to speak by revelation to us, Dr could also write by revelation exactly what God wanted us to read. The reason we never flashed on it is Dr kept us too busy moving the Word and he wanted to keep the idea of his writing of revelation RELATIVELY under wraps. I’ll explain some other time what I mean by “relatively” here. (And all those concerned with plagiarism can note that my use of “write” here is complex and includes not only original and divinely dictated revelation, but the discussion type of revelation I’ve reported here, as well as the doojabble-recognized type of revelation as “from whom” he should learn, even if it’s exact text.) On this same thread of yours, doojable, Oakspear wrote: “Vic Wierwille clearly believed that his interpretation of the bible was superior to anyone else's. __ He also believed that if the existing texts did not support what he taught, then the text was a forgery, or that there was another text out there that supported his position.” Oakspear also wrote: “...his word was still elevated above anything that was written in the bible.” Here, I assume Oakspear, when he uses the phrase “the bible,” again means the commonly accepted ancient texts and modern versions of said Bible, not the originals. Oak goes on with: “Although Wierwille was careful to always elevate the written 'Word', in practice, no text, no verse was as elevated as his own opinion. So, in a sense, Wierwille did believe that his doctrine was superior to the bible in any of it's translations or versions. So, of course he wanted us to ‘master’, not only the bible, but his spin on the bible, PFAL, and all of his other books.” I think Oak, with his advantage of having seen the earlier days, and with his advantage of being a more detached observer as a self-proclaimed atheist, is able to see that Dr claimed to be THE authority, and I’ll add “because he was appointed such by God.” ********** Now, on this same thread we see Raf, who was a relative late comer, after Dr’s death, never having known Dr or his ministry (only Craig’s) arguing the opposite of Oakspear. Just the opposite of the “air” I described above that enveloped Oakspear and all us OLGs, Raf was surrounded by fallen corrupted TWI leaders (and later by similar Geer and CES leaders) who had all long rejected Dr’s authority, and were busying themselves with re-inventing the wheel God and Dr had already perfected. Raf wasn’t exposed to the same atmosphere of absolute respect for Dr that Oak had and I and other OLGs (Older Leader-type Grads) had experienced. The written “thus saith the lord statements” of Dr’s sailed right past Raf when he got in, as they continue to do to this day. But those of us who knew Dr’s attitude of “Thus saith” can see them plain as day if we’re not spiritually suffocated in churchianity tradition or something else. Later, when I post a string of “Thus saith the lord” statements of Dr’s it will be understood why I’m doing this if these things are kept in mind.

Mark, I distinctly remember hearing a SNS tape from a year or two after he filmed the class where Dr complains that many of his students were getting the idea that he was teaching an abundance that was a “carload of money.” In other teachings Dr points to the manifestations as the real abundance. I’ve heard Dr teach with Bible verses (Timothy I think) that if we were healthy and had food, clothing, and shelter we ought to be extremely thankful, so these items constitute some of our physical abundance. He also taught that it’s needs, not greeds, that we can look to God for. It’s this kind of thing that I was trying to show “A simple guy” on doojable’s thread. We can’t just launch into big theories from one passage of PFAL, we need to collect ALL the places where the same topic comes up. Dr taught us to do this collecting of ALL occurrences of a topic in our KJVs before we start jelling our thoughts, and the same key applies to rightly dividing PFAL.

dmiller, The film was only supposed to be an introduction to the books. The books WERE edited and tweaked over the years. Related to this “written over the spoken” is rhino’s previous topic of “more than abundant” versus “abundant.” One of the reasons Dr constantly urged that we master the WRITTEN materials from the class is because we had mastered the SPOKEN part TOO well and it was preventing us from graduating to the more accurate and more full written aspect of the class. This issue of Dr’s handling of “abundant” in those opening moments of the class show some of why graduating to the written was so important, and that it still awaits our action. Here are corresponding sentences, first in the film class and then in the book on this issue of abundance. *** film: And here I was reading from the Word of God one day Jesus said he came that we might have life and have it more than abundant. book: Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. *** film: So I began to ask myself the question, "Why is it, if Jesus Christ came that men and women might have life more abundant, why is it that the Christian believers do not manifest an abundant life?" book: Thus I earnestly began to pursue the question, “If Jesus Christ came that men and women might have a more abundant life, why is it that the Christian believers do not manifest even an abundant life?” *** film: Then I noticed furthermore that that verse said he didn't just come to give an abundant life. He came that we might have life and have it more than abundant! book: sentence deleted *** film: You know I believe most people would be thankful wouldn't they, most Christian believers, if they even manifested an abundant life. But that's not what the Word says. The Word says that Jesus Christ came that we might have life not abundantly, but have a life which is more than abundant. More than abundant! book: I believe most people would be thankful if they even lived an abundant life; but The Word says Jesus Christ came that we might have life not just abundant, but more abundant. *** film: But if he told the truth, if he meant what he said and said what he meant when he declared that he came that we might have life and have it more than abundantly, ladies and gentlemen, somewhere, someplace, somehow, surely there must be keys, there must be signposts that will guide us into the understanding and the receiving of this life which is more than abundant. book: if Jesus told the truth, if He meant what He said and said what He meant in this declaration, then surely there must be keys, signposts, to guide us to the understanding and the receiving of this life which is more than abundant. *** Notice that the book gradually converges up to the film’s level of abundance. The film class is like an introduction to the greater abundance that is available today in book form. The film class ushered us into the 5-senses understanding while the books usher in the greater spiritual understanding. There’s no question that the abundance we have now is much greater than the abundance Jesus was referring to in John 10:10. The abundance of the mystery was still to come when Jesus spoke those words.

rhino, You're referring to the film class. All that was cleaned up in the book.

Oakspear, Yes, to Dr's claiming to be THE authority. When Dr was alive and especially President, he exuded an attitude of "Thus saith the lord" nearly everywhere he went, AND we believed him.

Looks spacious in here, plenty of freeway access, convenience stores nearby, a church just down the block, ...and RED DRAPES ON THE WINDOWS!!! I'll TAKE it!

Raf, Here are the facts I refer to here: From 1975-1985 Dr presents to leadership first, then everyone else, a project of mastering written PFAL. I have, and can again, produced the documentation in exact quotes and cited where in the public record I got it from. I’ve done a poll with roughly 300 people in 8 years on grad awareness of Dr’s last teaching and in the non-Corps population 99% never, ever heard of it. The number of people I’ve asked about Dr’s last written messages to us is far fewer, hence I ask now. But so far no any one I’ve asked recognizes that Dr said those two things twice in that last magazine. I’m talking about Dr decrying the “dark clouds” hanging over us and Dr calling for a theological makeover for everyone, twice each, IN THE SAME MAGAZINE, and all this was his last written communication to us. Not even Dr’s call for a makeover, just these events of extreme spiritual slumber on the part of us OLGs (notice I plead guilty here myself) should lead us OLGs to the very humbling realization that we must have blown off one heck of a lot of spiritual wisdom and knowledge Dr was trying to impart to us at that time. THANK GOD he did so much in writing and on tape so that we OLGs can back track where we went wrong and what to correct. Raf, you’re a reporter. Don’t you see a STORY in here!?

A simple guy, My words are nothing. I point to very special words when I point to written PFAL (magazine included) because they are words that God inspired. You still didn't answer me if those two magazine quotes of Dr's were new to you. I'm just takig a poll.

A simple guy, Back to my bottom line, my GOOD NEWS bottom line: there's un-tapped treasure in written PFAL for OLGs. This should be good news, at least for OLGs who believe it and see it. I'll accept your credentials as stated, but I've heard the arguments you set forth before from grads; they're in the wind. If I jumped on you more than you are accustomed to, then I apologize. I kinda assumed you were ready for a slugfest like a lot of the others around me were, and we’re all used to it, ...somewhat. If you did not see my plee (in my lengthy post just preceding your arrival) for a complete re-vamping of our handling of PFAL passages and topics, then I apologize again, for that. I assumed you had read it, and that’s why you singled me out for your first post. But tell me, I’m dying to know. Had you ever seen those two quotes of Dr’s in his last magazine that both call for a theological makeover for every grad? As an amateur historian I find it fascinating that with both Dr’s last spoken AND written communications with us, most of us never heard nor saw them. If this was fiction I was writing, the chain of events I’ve documented from 1975 to 1985, my editor wouldn’t buy it. It would strain credibility of the fiction reader, that the venerated cult leader’s last recorded and written words just slipped through the cracks somehow. Any fiction editor would realize that can't happen in real life. It’s too implausible to happen in fiction, but it DID happen to US! This should get out spiritual attention! I find it doubly astounding, that not only would these last words be ignored and lost 20 years ago, but bringing them up AGAIN strikes no chords of significance in most grads STILL, even today. A few OLGs see this. Just a few, so far.

CW, I was just next door and thought I'd say hi. I don't want to spread myself out on multi-threads, though, so I have to get back.

rascal, How do you handle Philippians 2:12 ? "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." And how do yo handle Ephesians 2:8-10 ? "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Works are involved, but it's grace that God even ALLOWS us to work. Before we have holy spirit, good words are impossible, but afterwards good works (especially working to know God's Word better) are required by God if we want to receive more salvation, not spiritual salvation, but in soul (mind) in body (healing). It's useful for bodily healing if we do some good works for it (like sleep, food, medicine) but the REAL healer is God and every healing is still a gift from God.

A simple guy, At the end of you post you wrote: “Oldiesman, I’ve seen enough of Mike’s heart to know who’s works he’s magnifying.” I object! You stepped into the middle of a food fight and saw only a few of my 4000 posts. Your first post was aimed square at me. I don’t think you picked a good time to judge hearts. And I seriously object to your mixing soul and spirit in our discussion. It doesn’t confuse me but I think it does confuse others. Here you do this mixing again: “Accusation, fault finding and laying guilt are not sonship rights and God doesn’t use them to motivate his children to know his Word. In fact, he gave his son so that we no longer have to reap the consequences of sin and guilt. Remember Romans – Shall Christ lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?” In my admittedly harsh remarks in posts above to you I said you fell short of my standards of who I should trust to handle an ADAN passage. I said nothing of you falling short righteousness wise. *** You wrote: “Mike, you compared me to Craig Martindale. It’s interesting to me how guilt and accusation rolls off your fingertips as easily as it rolled off his tongue.” No I didn’t. What I rhetorically called “your disease” is what I compared to Craig’s "disease." I said “same disease.” But you mention nothing here of my next line noting the differing symptoms, where I can add now (now that I’m calmer, and that foodfight seems to be over) I’m sure differ greatly from Craig’s symptoms. *** You wrote: “...the biggest part of having a renewed mind lies in knowing who one is in Christ.” I can agree. And the biggest part of knowing who one is in Christ, FOR OLGs, is coming back to PFAL. That’s my assertion. And those OLGs who try it like it. *** You wrote: “Your statements over the last couple pages make it quite clear that you still don’t have a clue what your identity is yet. If you did you would think twice about laying guilt at the feet of one whose life was paid for by the blood of Christ.” I plead not guilty to your charge here. It should be clear to you that the last couple of pages represent only about 1% of the last couple of days in my life. If you are hinting that you got revelation to see the other 99% you need to re-calibrate your operation of the revelation manifestations. As I said above, I only judged you in the category of handling an ADAN passage. I cited proof that we OLGs are ALL guilty of being poor PFAL students, so why SHOULD I trust you to adequately handle such a passage. I was in the middle of an argument that we needed to re-vamp everything, but you acted as if you’d just “minister to the situation.” I objected. If we don’t start at square one with PFAL we are not following the instructions of the man who taught us PFAL. I do plead GUILTY to THIS charge of not properly following the instructions of our teacher. I’ve always included myself in this boat of “OLG guilt” in all my posting here. *** As to you again “ministering to me” about my identity, and ignoring my arguments, please don’t be offended, but I didn’t ask for you to minister to me. I don’t want a diagnosis from you, I want a discussion based on what I’m putting forth, not based on your hunches about what’s ailing me. That was a big problem with many of you “simple non-leadership” Corps people. I don’t know HOW many times I sat down with leadership with a valid complaint about something in the ministry and they turned it around to make it seem like it was me that had a problem. I’d sense that these leaders were not listening to me, so I’d step up my flow of details and dialog, only to see them glossing over their eyes and “asking Father” how to minister to me, completely ignoring everything I was saying. How many others here ran into this problem with leadership before? *** I don’t believe you’re a very simple guy. And your claim to not be a leader doesn’t fit with your walking right up to me and digging right in. You’re not an ordinary new person here. I even think you and I have talked before. Am I right? The bottom line of my “charges” here is that we OLGs have not yet finished the class, and that there is much more in there for us. This is good news. This is where I stake my identity.

Later on. After holy spirit is received. After that mind feeds from the written Word provided.

[Raf, The idea of "replacement" comes up in the ChattyKathy dialog which is referenced in my response to WordWolf below. ] WordWolf, You wrote: “You've said before that the only Bible verses that MATTER are the ones in the pfal books.” Yes, but ONLY to OLGs who’ve had decades to learn all the other verses. *** You wrote: “Therefore, someone following YOUR method-as you've advocated-will turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers, and NEVER crack open a Bible, EVER.” No. Again, it’s only OLGs who I advocate to “turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers” ... and these OLGs are expert Bible-crackers from their youth. What I have urged is that OLGs reverse their priority scheduling wise. Where in the past we OLGs would read the KJV 10 to 100 times as many hours per month as we would read PFAL, I advocate we OLGs now read PFAL 10 to 100 times as much as our KJVs. *** You wrote: “I also drew a distinction between PFAL -the books and tapes- and YOUR doctrine and methodology- since they often lead in OPPOSITE directions.” I don’t follow what you mean here. *** I had written: “These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible.” And you responded: “I can agree with that sentence, as stated. The materials were useful. (Of course, not everyone agrees with me.)” Well I am one who does agree with you here. Thank you for this agreement. Maybe we can build some mutual respect for each other based on what beliefs we share instead of focusing on where we disagree. *** You wrote: “Well, no one who hasn't had the years of "God spoke to vpw" indoctrination takes you seriously. So, anyone other than an "Older Leader Grad" laughs in your face. Hence, only OLGs get targeted for your message. So, we agree you only target OLGs.” Right, as a practical matter it would be silly for me to even try to approach nonOLGs. But I see a doctrinal matter in it, too. It has to do with the idea of PFAL being ONLY ADDRESSED to grads. This came up twice in my lengthy post. I’ve been trying to slog through 3 years of resistance here to get this idea of ADDRESSED TO GRADS, and to OLG grads at that, to the general mindset of those who read my posts. Just as my message is addressed only to OLGs, so it seems to me right now that PFAL is addressed only to OLGs. It’s taken me three years to get this to this point. *** You wrote: “And ‘super-charged PFAL’?” Yes. I’ve mentioned this before with different nomenclature like “second time through.” In the years of our (OLGS) first time through PFAL not as much was available to us. We could only receive a 5-senses understanding of it, and we didn’t even have a complete collection of the writings yet. The second time through (ALL the writings) the spiritual understanding is available. *** I wrote: “As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?” And you responded with: “But- any new person will be AVOIDED in your approach!” I not sure I understand you comment. The dialog I had with Chatty involved a hypothetical “new person” who happened upon PFAL materials. I was not in that dialog arguing FOR a new person opening up PFAL materials. I can paste in that dialog if you’d like to see it.

oldiesman, Thanks. And there are many thousands of us grads who think the same way who never post here.