Mike

Duh! That is what I did. I went from KJV verses first, many of them. Then a year or so later I heard Bishop Pillai. Then later still I saw Ezekiel 28:13-15. Then a bunch of years later I figured there had to be a reason Jesus talked to the devil in the desert. My impression of Jesus' conversation with the enchanter was that it took some time and a few rounds of dialog and action for Jesus to see that this enchanting vision is not as good as it appeared at first. Then Jesus rejected the enchanter's attempted influence., Think about it. If Jesus knew it was the devil he was considering thoughts with, he'd be making the first mistake Eve made. I don't think it looked like a snake in the desert to Jesus. It probably looked like beautiful something or other... like maybe a burning bush not consumed or something interesting and enchanting. I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place. As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation.

Yes, it would be. Bishop Pillai taught that the word for snake or serpent should be translated or thought of as "enchanter." Some snakes are amazing enchanters; just look at National Geographic. Hence, the downward spiral of Renaissance Art depicting a snake and an apple, corrupting people's mental imagery for centuries. Lucifer was created to be astoundingly beautiful; he charmed one third of God's angels. Our mind picture of Genesis should have in it an enchanting beauty deceiving Eve, not a slithering snake.

Talking dead people is fantasy.

Jesus would not speak a parable that would mislead his audience. The Gospels document that the people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate a little on that.

It took me a long time to understand the way ADAN handles this story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. I now see it as a cultural thing. The people loved parables, and Jesus reached them often that way. Imagine yourself in a movie theater, about to see a drama or something. The lights go out, and a cartoon comes on. What happens? The people love it and laugh and applaud as the Merry Melodies play. Then everyone eats up the talking animals like Bugs Bunny cracking jokes, and that Wiley Coyote gets smashed by a giant heavy rock, only to get up and continue the chase. No one gets the idea from the cartoon that animals can really talk. When Jesus ran the Parables Reel at his shows, the people loved it! Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk. They just did not have the centuries of twisted training to think that the dead are alive now. They loved the teaching of principles in a fantasy setting.

Hi Twinky. I see the two questions you mentioned as pretty merged, and both angles are in my mind. I agree, silence with alert love is my best strategy so far.

My statement there was a preventive measure, here. Many people are prone to make that mistake that I warned against. I have seen people misread that way, the statistics I mentioned. Not here, though.

True. Just the opposite, it mitigates it. AND more importantly: heavy smoking is not EVIDENCE of schizophrenia. Thanks again. You and waysider are the first people I have discussed this with who had first hand knowledge. I've only been reading about this a little.

Here is where you suspicions took you down the wrong road. I wrote: "What I do mean is I am seeking information on how friends and family deal with a loved one who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia by a professional." The professional diagnosis mentioned in that sentence refers to anyone HERE who had friends or family with the disease, and not to my friend having a professional diagnosis.

I went back and re-read my opening post. If you do the same you will see my emphasis is on how do I deal with the family IF this is what I suspect it is. I also noticed that I did not include one of my biggest reason's for suspecting his condition is schizophrenia, because it is a little bit involved. It's the nicotine connection that I am talking about. My friend was a heavy life long smoker. Have any of you heard in the last 10 years the news about nicotine and this disease? For decades health care workers has suspected this connection. What they noticed was that in a KNOWN population of professionally diagnosed schizophrenia patients (like in a mental hospital) the percent who are heavy smokers is significantly higher than percent heavy smokers in the general population. STOP! This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia. This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia. Please digest that. The percent differences are not that great to make such a leap in statistics. This was just a hunch that mental health workers had and it was labeled anecdotal for decades. THEN came the Chemists in Neuroscience and ten years ago they finally determined that nicotine is nearly chemically equivalent to the best schizophrenia meds. It acts similarly on the same sites in the brain. You can now Google this connection, as the chemistry has been super verified since I first heard it 10 years ago. Lots of schizophrenia victims find that nicotine helps them think better, and they became life long heavy smokers for it. It's the old self medicating thing. After I heard all this my suspicions increased that he had problems and I watched very closely. A few years later his doctor demanded that he cut his smoking in half. He got a little kookier in my unprofessional opinion. Then another couple years and he got some other disease and his doctor said it was cold turkey time, so he totally quit. Within 3 months he was pretty radically different. My observations ended soon after that. He is older than me and I expect to be trying my best to help his family at some point after he passes away. So that is why I took the time to look into this disease some, and ask here how the family of such victims handle it.

LoL You folks are WAY too suspicious. I hope for your own sakes that you aren't like that in real life.

Yes, you got that right. I'm not a professional so my hunch is much hunchier that a professional's. I'm just thinking that IF my amateur hunch plays out as right in the coming years, I want to be prepared to help the family, and not accidentally antagonize them. Maybe they got a professional involved by now. I am sort of cut off from most news about all this now, though, since his other medical conditions have worsened. I will look into the MMPI-2 test, so thanks for that. I had heard of that some.

Thank you. That is very helpful.

Did the odd behavior come and go? For my friend many months could pass and I'd see no signs, then then one or two would pop up for a day or two, and then everything would be fine for another long time.

What you did not understand in my hunch statement is that unlike many other medical conditions, there is no objective chemical test for schizophrenia. Or at least, none at the time of the data I found. It should be diagnosed by a professional observing body language, and spoken responses, history of events, family history, etc. But if a second opinion is sought, a contradictory diagnosis might be given. This doesn't usually happen if there were a chemical test to aid the diagnosis. That is why the word "hunch" was very appropriate, in comparison to a chemical test.

By "first-hand experience" I don't mean "what you know" if you are afflicted with schizophrenia yourself. Although, that could be interesting in itself. What I do mean is I am seeking information on how friends and family deal with a loved one who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia by a professional. A dear old friend of mine has been going through multiple medical issues that are pretty extreme. For almost ten years I have thought that schizophrenia was possibly one of them. Though I've spent a lot of time studying the brain, schizophrenia was never included, so I am very ignorant here. In the meantime I have learned very little in how to deal with my friend and his family. I have learned a full one percent of the population is afflicted with this disease. I also learned that there is very little known about schizophrenia, and that there is no chemical test for it; only the hunch of a psychiatrist can be obtained as a diagnosis. But the shame of this disease is great in our culture. Very little seems to be known about it in common culture. Strangely, I don't know how schizophrenia was handled in the ministry. Mental illness in general seemed to rarely come up. Devil spirits came up often, that's for sure. I do remember rare, short AC teachings on a some of this delicate spirit/chemical topic, but it was never assimilated into the culture of the ministry, as best as I can remember. I do know that schizophrenia is NOT the Hollywood story of multiple personalities, but I do wonder if there is a trace of that kind of thing in the disease. In my ten years of observing occasional short duration fits of strange behavior and words from my old friend, I can see how some might interpret that as separate personalities. Most of the time he was perfectly lucid and loving, and sharp with the Word. I don't think his family can handle me asking them about this. I already know for sure that they want strict privacy for even his medical conditions, and that would be even more for his mental condition. I guess I am wondering how families deal with schizophrenia, so that after he falls asleep, I can most effectively comfort them.

It's because you have not asked them. Have you ever asked older grads, not connected with GreaseSpot, what they think of this place? I mean have you asked MANY grads, like an informal poll? Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI. Then, if they speak up about the positives, they are shot down with barrages of bitterness. Either that, or they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness. This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.

I point to the collaterals, because they round off my argument. I point to what I got from the collaterals in the 1970s, and how they served me a clear window into the Bible. I still use that window to see clearly. I asked you and others what window you use to see clearly, and you dodged the challenge. You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.

Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit. What do you do for "new" people you minister to? What standard do you conform to in ministering to them? Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver? If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started? Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world? Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW." You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff. There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now. I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.

Are you afraid to open up for all to see how little you have going on? I think your personal believes ARE the issue here. You are afraid to show your empty hand.

And exactly how do you do that? Does he come and instruct you? Did he leave you with a book? Or more likely, do you wing it and assume anything you like in your head is what Jesus likes too?

Which brings up a good point. We all gotta master SOMETHING. There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against. The question is WHAT? What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts? Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present? If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing? Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them. */*/* On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW. But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?

Thanks for the tip. I noticed that he deals a lot with A.I. and I am very interested in how the kind of mundane free will that I am proposing could work in A.I. someday. I bookmarked his book for future reference.

I don't see it a big deal that our perceptions be all that accurate. What we get mostly from perceptions are how can we move in tight quarters without bumping our head. Perceptions are for survival, and they work just fine for that. The ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe, and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time.

So_crates: “You're still presupposing Saint Vic was an MOG. What proof do you have of this?” The proof is in the package that was delivered to me: the written collaterals, mostly. */*/* So_crates: “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” That is putting evidence on a slightly higher pedestal than it deserves. ][][][][][][][][][][][] T-Bone: “wierwille demanded to be considered a man of God in the unique class of the Apostles- but take note - wierwille had no signs of an apostle!!!!!! Proof is in the authentication by God. wierwille didn’t have $hit!” I was impressed with how efficiently the film class got so many to genuinely S.I.T. and VPW’s policy of “no one gets missed” almost worked for us who ran the film classes. I can tell that few here ever went into the deeper details of SIT, and that’s why all the doubts over faking it. I went there plenty of times, but I did it in at a time when the local ministry was nurturing, functioning and thriving. I got my answers to the genuineness of SIT that I see most here completely missed. ][][][][][][][][] Chockful: “I challenge Mike to equally employ his model of Gods ownership across all areas of the Earth planet as God owns it.” God will assert His ownership in due time. Meanwhile, His revelations to us (including to Kenyon, to BG Leonard, to Bullinger, etc.) work this way. “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.” It is a big enough challenge for me to employ this model to whatever He God-breathes in these later centuries. ][][][][][][][][][][] Nathan_Jr: “Don't the epistles provide criteria for a man of god? Haven't we already shown victor doesn't meet those criteria?” The epistles give us guidance for how we should pick ministers to do jobs for us like preach and guide a flock. The epistles do not tell us how God picks people for super special jobs, like listen to what God said he should trust and not trust in other authors and researchers. That super special 1942 job also entailed teaching it, distributing it and listening to God’s guidance in that as well. He got the job done, mostly, by his retirement in 1982. God picked VPW for the job and it was done before most of you took the class.