Mike

Hi waysider, Thanks for the Physics help. Hope this helps you too: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ic=1512&hl=

Hi Mark, Ok, to not wasting each other’s time. To answer your question, I left around 1988 but it was a leaving TWI to join Geer, so it was pretty seamless as far as my fundamental beliefs. I did my big re-evaluation in 1998, ten years later. At that time I discarded my own research, and the research of all others, and discarded all the TVTs I could identify. TVTs are my symbol for Twi Verbal Traditions. I’m still running across a few deeply buried TVTs in me every now and then. That same year I also decided to accept (for the first time) written PFAL as my written authority, seeing there were no others to choose from, hardly. Many years prior to 1998 I had utilized some of the written PFAL texts as KJV Bible aids, but never as authoritative in themselves. My utilization of them was relatively short-lived (as was with us all), being concentrated in the early 70’s and pretty sparsely by the mid 80’s, to none n the early 90’s. There was a tiny bit of general recognition by us all that the collaterals were given by revelation in the very early 70’s, but that died out in less than ten years.

Belle, My plea is “Not Guilty” to the derailing charge. I waited for this thread to run it’s hot course and then cool down before posting. Then I posted DIRECTLY to a most recent comment by Oakspear (the thread’s originator), then I posted directly to Oakspear’s first post. Sure, my posts carry more tangential temptations for other posters, and if I answer them, it can get away from the original topic easily. That’s why I waited for the thread to cool down a little before posting. Now in the process of my posting yesterday, a few tangential comments were made posters addressed to me, and I’d like to address them here, briefly. If these comments are dealt with further b y other posters, they yes, a slight derailing occurs until those tangents are finished. ******* Hi Mark, It’s good to be back, albeit temporary. I’m taking a short “post-taxes” break from work. Hey, I’m sure what I said is a shock to both you and the Church Lady, but think it through a little and it’s not so bad. Are you under the impression that there IS a bookstore Bible available that is authoritative? If so, I’d like to have it’s Library of Congress number. ******* For one, the KJV Canon cannot be found in the KJV text. Things like “the mechanics of speech” cannot be found explicitly in the KJV and the traditional canon of ancient scriptures, but were crucial to help untangle the SIT camouflage. At the time the ancient scriptures were written the Return of Christ and his Second Coming were in the distant and secret future. That time has finally come, the Return is underway (albeit, not like we imagined it) and it’s no longer needed to keep our post-Return instructions secret. In other words, the KJV contains nothing that will tell you “Now! It’s time NOW to rise and meet the Lord in the air.” The KJV won't tell you how to do it, it just says wait for it. ******* Listener, Yes, I’m serious. So is God when He had Paul write: “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.” And as far as village idiots go, I can hold a conversation better than you can, so be careful. Answer me this, why does a mirror reverse left and right but not up and down? I’m very serious about investigating what no one else wants to look into or even think about. ******* No, Garth, I don’t have the time to do this day after day like before. This village idiot has better things to do than debate with people who want to suppress debate. I checked in here because I like Oakspear and I had some pertinent things to say to him. ******* Let me ask you this, where IS the real Bible? Do you have a real Bible? I mean one that is authoritative, unchallengeable, and not needing any research to clarify any passages. For that matter, do you have any finished Biblical research, that needs no more work, and that is repeatedly arrived upon by numerous researchers cranking the keys? If so, please inform me and Oakspear of this breakthrough! Most people find my thesis radical because they have never deeply contemplated what their own “only rule for faith and practice” really IS! So, wrdsandwrks, what’s the authority YOU look up to as bigger than you? ******* OK, that’s it for the derailing tangents. Posters can PM me if they have burning comments, or even start a new thread. Just to reflect back on my ON-TOPIC posts here, isn’t it odd that Dr warned us TWICE in his last written messages to us that there was a great need for us to re-evaluate everything we believed?! I wish I had taken him seriously back then. I was 11 years late in my re-evaluations. Do you GreaseSpotters ever re-evaluate your MODERN positions? For instance, it’s a given here that VPW was evil. Do those of you who think he was evil ever re-evaluate THAT position? How many GreaseSpotters went from an unquestioning TWI lover to an unquestioning hater? I find that it’s often scary to look at one’s own foundations. However, in my science training I learned long ago that when things aren’t working right, challenging one’s own fundamental assumptions can unclog many a roadblock. Einstein was a master at this, tinkering with fundamental assumptions. Re-evaluation is a good process to try out, and to keep it installed ongoing, running in the background.

In that second to the last verse of John's Revelation, the word "book" should read "scroll." It was referring to that scroll, not the Canonical collection which came hundreds of years later. I know we can't add to God's Word just as a general principle, but He can, like He did in Jeremiah 36. I'm betting my time that He added a bunch to PFAL too. Peace and love to you too, T-Bone.

T-Bone, I've got to get out of here before any more of the pose arrives. I just don't have time. You wrote: “The span of time is not the issue. How do you know exactly what's missing from the original ancient Scriptures – if you don't have original ancient Scriptures to refer to? You're not making any sense.” God restored (and added to) what was lost by way of His 1942 intervention, teaching Dr and his editors for 40 plus years what to put into written form. I don’t need to know this by deduction or induction, I read it in the written revelation of PFAL’s “book and magazine form.” You wrote: “So you’re saying there’s portions of the Bible missing that would reveal this?” I’m not sure I said missing. Lost, yes. Things can be lost via many methods, and removal is only one such method. Things can be camouflaged in many ways. Language and culture changes are phenomena no one has a complete handle on… appealing back to Oakspear’s lament on the slipperiness of operating the keys in that area. It would be a long discussion (too long) to include the possibility that entire chapters or books of the New Testament were lost to both the customary Canon AND to the apocryphal ones.

Yes, in a way. All the Bibles available in bookstores are devoid of authority, and subject to re-evaluation with the keys, as Oakspear pointed out. No bookstore Bibles are authoritative. They aren't given by revelation, but by perspiration. They have SOME revelation incorporated with them, but crucial errors too. God arranged for grads to have something authoritative in written form, AND something sufficient to enable us grads to see Christ at his return, which is now, kinda. Written PFAL is authoritative; bookstore Bibles are not, and never were.

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Hi T-Bone, One or two topics at a time is all I have time for, so I’ll have to chose which of your points to respond to in this immediate now. *** I have often, very often in fact, quoted the exact same passage in Jeremiah 36 that you just quoted. There is a short time gap between God’s originally giving the words for that burned scroll and God’s giving the second scroll WITH MANY WORDS ADDED. God altered via addition His own word after a short time gap. There is another instance where a scroll(s?) was buried in the temple debris for a longer time gap, and then found. It just so happens that there was a 2000 year gap for us. *** The fullness that was lost, that was in the spoken and originally written Word of the first century, was the learning of the power to do all the things Jesus Christ did and greater. *** You wrote: “Getting back to Oakspear's topic – it's obvious YOU didn't re-evaluate what you were taught. Insinuating any understanding other than the "original full understanding" as taught by VPW is wrong. I find the assumption in your "thesis" confusing…” I don’t blame you for finding it confusing. My presentation of that thesis here has always been in the midst of tumult. If you want a more clear understanding of it, that is available if you want to PM me about it. It’s neither obvious nor factual that I’ve neglected my re-evaluation responsibilities. I did neglect them 20 plus years ago, but about 9 years ago I finally got down to business on this important matter. Not only that, but I informed many others (like in posts here) of Dr’s two calls to us to do the same in his last magazine article to us. Dr twice urged us to re-thing EVERYTHING, in writing, just before he died. I’ve posted on this double re-evaluation urging of Dr’s here before. Here’s a repeat of some of that info: It was in the July/Aug 1985 issue of the Way Magazine that Dr issued that challenge, twice. They were in his last two prepared articles, both in that same issue. The first one is in "Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice" on page 17, right column, in the upper half. there he says (with my bold fonts): "You have to honestly come to the place that you're willing to keep asking yourself, 'Where did I learn what I believe? How did I get to the place where I believe what I believe today?' For the most part, men believe what they have received from tradition and not from directly reading it in the Word of God." In other words, this self examination should be on-going. I see an implication here that we were NOT doing this even once by that time. When Dr says "men" I see him primarily referring to leadership of the ministry. I don't see him charging this to and about denominational churchgoers outside the ministry. The tradition they (we) were believing was the verbal tradition(s) that grew up within the ministry and that I have called TVTs. We were not (by that time) forming and maintaining beliefs from directly reading God's Word, the written material we were supplied in PFAL. Many were forming beliefs not from written PFAL but from their own KJV or Greek research, the traditional approach, and drifting farther and farther from the written revelations God gave Dr and Dr gave us. This is why in his last teaching (and on many previous occasions) Dr stresses the written forms of PFAL for mastery. *** The second location of this challenge from Dr is in the Our Times Insight article on page 12, left column, lower half. There he writes: "We must honestly come to the place of asking ourselves: Where did I learn this? How did I get to the place of believing this? Who taught me this? The counterfeit is so much like the genuine, you have to know the accuracy of the Word to separate truth from error." The accuracy of the Word cannot be read from the KJV. The accuracy of the Word cannot be conjured up from stale memories, or learned from verbal traditions like sitting through the film class a lot of times. It is written. *** In addition to the twice occurrence of this challenge in one magazine, he also twice (once in each article) decries the "dark clouds that hover over us" due to the traditions of men. I am convinced that the "us" Dr is referring to here is not rhetoric for "us human beings" nor for "us Christians throughout the world" but is referring to "us PFAL grads." I believe the traditions Dr refers to here are not things like the trinity or salvation by works. He's nailing our whole scale reverting back to tradition of searching for truth in the writings of men like the KJV, other versions, or the critical Greek texts. That job had been essentially finished by October 1982, as Dr reported at Craig's installation and on that week's SNS tape. In both of those articles he was urging us to take the REAL Bible as our only rule for faith and practice, not some version. In Session One Dr says that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God. Millions and millions of the world's population believe that their KJV or NIV or Greek texts are the Word of God. How many know that those are good tools to start finding God's will at best, and counterfeits at worst? How many know that God commissioned Dr to commit to writing His Word like it has not been known since the first century? THAT is the greatest literal secret in the world, that the written forms of PFAL comprise God's book, the Bible, the written Word of God. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike, July 27, 2005 13:20

Hi Oakspear, Are you related to James Joyce? You seem to have the gift of gab, at least in ASCII. I often enjoy it when you lay out your logic. You wrote: “Another key ingredient in my decision to put aside what I had been taught in TWI was stumbling across the CES website. They had a (long) list of areas where they disagreed with what TWI taught. This wasn't just disagreement with Martindale, but disagreement with Wierwille as well. I realized after looking at what other offshoots were teaching, as well as what individual ex-wayfers were saying, that simply using the "keys to research" taught in PFAL (or in Bullinger for that matter) in no way guarantees that the results will be the same.” It’s this last phrase of yours that catches my attention, “that simply using the "keys to research" taught in PFAL (or in Bullinger for that matter) in no way guarantees that the results will be the same.” I agree wholeheartedly with this point. This is a major point in my thesis, that sense knowledge cranking away on those keys, when applied to the tattered remnants of scripture, CANNOT produce the same final answer repeatedly for all those cranking. This DOES happen somewhat in science, that repeatable results are received at times. In fact, they’re insisted upon before a theory is accepted. My thesis (as presented here so far) is that the essence and full power of the ancient scriptures are IRRECOVERABLE with sense knowledge methods, due to the superior intelligence that suppressed the originals 2000 years ago. The devil messed up the original FULL understanding in a way that it is not possible for man to untangle on his own. My thesis has been that in 1942 God intervened to settle this issue of the impossibility of scripture recovery, but He chose to do it an a MOST non-traditional way, kinda secretive until it was all done, like a thief in the night even. However, I do think the keys will produce much more repeatable results when applied to written form PFAL, especially and fully when the spiritual perspective (as in the “Viewpoints: God’s - Man’s” chapter in Volume III, WWAY) is given predominance.

Howdy Folks! Boy oh boy, is this deja vu all over again, or WHAT!

On an old, pruned thread here titled “Innies and Outies: all men are liars” I posted as my very first post the following on December 25, 2002 09:13: The Truth About Lies Many, many threads here have focused on truth vs. untruth and so I thought I’d put in my two cents. This is my first post here after years of friendly lurking since Waydale. Since leaving TWI in 1989, I have carefully cultivated a set of rather extreme beliefs compared to most of you, and I feel a need to go slowly in attempting to communicate them here. I don’t want to start off by offending people or scaring anyone off, so I chose this relatively safe topic based on a few recent threads about lying that now look to have somewhat run their courses. Over the years I have had a varied correspondence with several of you privately, for which I am thankful, and now I hope finally to add something to this public forum. Some of you know me personally, and we’re still actually friends, in spite of doctrinal differences! Hi Mandii ! Hello Pamsandiego ! Will you two at least verify that I’m not WAYGB if I’m ever placed under that suspicion? I’ll try not to embarrass you both with my extreme doctrinal stances, but there may be times I want to ask you to vouch for my integrity. I guess that the best way to make friends here is by relating how I too was hurt by the ministry machinations. This is something we all have in common. We all got hit in one way or another with lies, and maybe some of us even told a few ourselves. It just so happens that the subject of lying was very interesting to me well before I got into the Word, and I’ve spent about 35 years of pondering the topic. My initial interest was in the electronics that polygraphs are based on. As I became educated in the Bible, during TWI’s good old days, the phrase “all men are liars” seemed to be a frequently underlying motif for many Bible passages, contrasting with the total trustworthiness of God, His Word, and His Son. Then, during TWI’s first collapse in the late Eighties, I frequently found myself being lied to by the leaders (from twi AND from splinter groups) as I attempted to confront them or extract information from them. It was a very confusing time, and most leadership was keeping unusually quiet about all the raging issues. Sometimes it wasn’t quite lying that they did, but certainly the factual info was being withheld in one way or another, and that went on for years. I often noticed that slightly different words or phrases would describe the situation other than “lie,” but these would still be words with many connotations similar to simple lying. The next area relating to lying that got my attention was in studying the workings of the human brain. During the Nineties I happened to live near one of the world’s largest brain research facilities, and all that decade I enjoyed getting to know some of the scientists that worked there. I was allowed to attend seminars with many top scholars in the field, and was invited to parties at their houses. In that field they often study people who are the poor victims of severe brain damage, and a very frequent phenomenon they observe is what they call “confabulation.” Confabulation is a nice word for “lying.” It turns out that many different forms of brain injury can result in the victims lying through their teeth a lot. It is truly a pitiful situation, especially when the lies are very transparent. The victims are totally unaware of how incredulous their words are. For example: a totally blind person claiming to have perfect sight to an eye doctor! This lends a lot of support to the Biblical contention that we ALL are very predisposed to lie, but when our brains are intact we employ very complex skills that can hide this profuse lying from others (and ourselves) very well. So, I heard some new synonyms for “lying” in my exposure to these scientists, and started collecting a list of such words and phrases to assist me in my lack of skill in confronting ministry leaders. I learned to expect resistance from them, and I wanted to be able to spot it as it happened, not hours later, so I tried to somewhat prepare myself this way. I figured that if I was sharper at spotting their dodges, then I could get better at on-the-spot follow-up questions that could circumvent the dodge. They had a policy of keeping mum on all behind-the-scenes ministry info and I was developing a policy of penetrating this barrier. This proceeded for several years, as I struggled with leadership in a newly evolving twi-clone splinter group that pretty well took over my area. As I got more and more aggressive in confronting leadership, the common forms of persecution that religions often degenerate to became more the rule than the exception. I was confronted unjustly at times, and somewhat shunned at times. Eventually I experienced a few more psychological horrors other than mere lying, and it all got to be quite a zoo. Of all the hurts reported here at GS that TWI-2 went through during the Nineties, this very similar splinter group ALSO went through, just on a much smaller scale. It was late in this period, around 1997, that a scandal broke out in the national news involving a man named Larry Lawrence, who had lied about his military service and ended up being buried in Arlington National Cemetery. It was front page news for weeks, and the reporters covering the story nearly doubled my list of synonyms for “lying.” Then another big news event hit the front pages: the Clinton/Lewinski scandal. President Clinton’s lying was portrayed in the media by many more words and phrases that were added to my expanding my list. Still today, every now and then I run across another, and the list grows a little more. I’m placing a SHORT version of this list below. The full list has many very subtle entries, and some that only communicate to a specialized field. So remember, this is the SHORT list. If it’s the case that Eskimos have some 22 words for “snow” because they are so immersed in the white stuff, WHAT DOES THIS BLIZZARD OF A LIST SAY for the human condition in general? What does it say about OUR old man nature? Is there anyone out there in GreaseSpotLand that thinks they are really immune to this? If so, please come forward with your secret... ...and be honest about it! The Short List air brushed alias alter ego ambiguous artificial bait and switch bamboozle based on a true story bend the truth bias bluff bogus bribe broken promise .... bunk camouflage check's in the mail circuitous clandestine comedy con game confabulate conflabulate - Batman, I only weigh 108 pounds. conspiracy contradiction cook the books counterfactual counterfeit cover story cover up covert operation crossed fingers deceive denial deviate dilute diplomacy disguise dishonest disingenuous distort dog and pony show double minded downplay drivel embelishmentationalism embellish emphasize equivocal ersatz espionage euphemism evade exaggerate fable fabricate facetious facsimile fake fallacy falsehood fantasy feign feign fib fiction figment of imagination figure of speech finagle flatter flim flam flimsy excuse force fit fraud games people play go through the motions gossip half truth hallucinate heresy he's in a meeting hoax hokey hoodwink hooey hoopla horse feathers humor hype hypochondriac hypocrite hysteria idiom illusion imaginary impersonate impostor incognito inconsistent infidelity inflated claim innuendo insinuate interpretation irrational it's the alcohol talking jest jocular joke josh jury tamper just between us juxtaposition kidding kiss up lame excuse lawyer lead on libel lie lure make believe make up malarkey man made manipulate (the truth) masquerade metaphorical mirage mirth misinformation misspeak mistake mock up myth No, darling. That dress doesn't make you look fat at all. nonsense obfuscate occlude off the record optimist oversimplification oxymoron padded bill padded cellular phony pickup lines pat answer pen name perjury persona pessimist phantom phony placate placebo plagiarism plastic play along with play down play up ploy poetic license politician pomp poppycock post-progressive prank press release pretend professional wrestling prop propaganda protocol pseudo psychological warfare psychosomatic publicity stunt pull the wool pulling leg pun put best foot forward put on rationalization ravings renege resume reverse psychology rhetoric rogue role playing rose colored glasses rumor ruse sales pitch sarcasm satire scam schizophrenic sea story secrecy seduce sensationalize shallow shenanigans shield from the truth shifty eyed shill showy shtick silly simulate siren song skepticism skin deep beauty slander slant slight of hand sloganeer smear campaign smoke screen sneaky snooker snow job spin spoof spoof stage personality stand in stretch the truth substitute subterfuge subvert sugar coat superstition surreal surrogate take with a grain of salt tall tale tax deduction technicality the fish was THIS big theatrics thespian throwing the bull tip the scales tone down touch up toy with trick twist the truth two faced typo ulterior unofficial water down white lie white wash with a wink and a nod yarn yes man you're leading me on

Oh by gosh, by golly! I sure didn’t have any foreknowledge of this at ALL!

I put instant coffee in a microwave oven, and I almost went back in time. Steven Wright circa 1988

Graduated from high school in '67, I was there... then. Yes, I lived it ... Spare change? I was one of the original air heads. Before inflation!

"...there is no way this subject has been exhasted." I'll drink to that.

dmiller, How are you going to make that 10K count? Now you're under the gun to come up with something really significant... but don't let that get your goat. You'll think of something.

Sorry to hit-and-run (again) but... I was long ago (and now am constantly) impressed with the ego crushing efficiency SIT wields. The operation of SIT as we grads were taught is essentially a matter of training the “English Editor” portions of our brains that their services are no longer needed until the current stream of SIT is over, and THAT may hopefully not be for hours. It’s humiliating to the English Ego to SIT. The operation of much SIT helped me to reckon dead one of the most influential elements of my old man nature: my internal English Editor. The operation of SIT was a constant reminder AND primer that there was extrasensory information available if we were walking in the right direction. By primer I mean it “primed the pump” for the flow of spiritual information and data in the other manifestations. SIT... rivers of living water. But when will it cease? How will it cease? Who will execute it’s cessation in any one believer? Will it stop by free will, just like it started? What will be the “go-ahead” to stop for YOU?

Hi Todd, I have almost zero time for this, so please pardon my lack of participation later. I agree in part with your premise, and have so advocated in the past. It is my understanding that the EARLY STAGES of the Return are subtle, hidden, and not visible to the five senses. They are within, spiritually, and not noticed by the flesh realm inhabitants. For us to see (and thus participate in) these early stages of “The Return” (NOW PLAYING in selected local hearts) we need the 3-D glasses that written PFAL mastery will provide us. In these early and on-going stages it is the Christ in us that RETURNS to the nourishment of the pure Word of PFAL. As the baby Christ in us grows up into manhood on this Word we will work with God in ushering in the LATER STAGES of the end times when the 5-senses world WILL see it. Coming back to PFAL and The Return are intimately connected on many levels.

Howdy folks. I'm experiencing the annual Spring Cleaning rush in my business and am not able to spend much time at my computer. It looks like I have a lot of reading to do. I'll see you all when my my schedule clears up a bit.

dmiller, But the orange book didn't come out until 3 years after the film was made. If you don't believe PFAL is the only thing that fills the bill, then name another.

Tom, Give me an alternative. I said there is only one answer, and I don't think you can come up with another, not fitting all those conditions. So, unless you CAN, it's your opinion too, albeit reluctant.

Tom, THANK YOU for posting on PFAL and not me. You wrote: Mike, don't you think that if veepee had meant "PFAL writings" he would have said it? He didn't and he didn't... but I know you won't let that stop you.” There are lots of ways to refer to what I usually call the PFAL writings. There is no rightly divided Word sold in regular bookstores, not in pure form anyway. PFAL writings are the only things Dr COULD be referring to here. *** Dr wrote: “Having this background, we can now turn to the Word of God and see its clarity.” You wrote: ”Again Mike, notice here... veepee didn't say "turn to PFAL"...” Again, Tom, where are YOU going to turn to get the Word of God into your hands, or on your desk, or on my Table of Challenge? What Word of God that has weight and visibility to all, that is tangible and is concrete, that we dare not alter and must accept as is CAN WE TURN TO and see clear? There’s only one answer: PFAL!

templelady, You wrote: “The five senses do just fine in imparting this information to me.” The five senses work somewhat fine for dealing with the five senses realm, but they are extreme hindrances when trying to receive spiritual information from God. What I’m trying to point out is that FOR US GRADS, we get can a GREATER VIEW of the Return than what the rest of the world can get. We can see it NOW spiritually in this early spiritual phase. Here is a passage I have posted many times and should be totally familiar with everyone. Searching this GSC board for the other places where I’ve posted it should bring in many details worth keeping in mind. GMWD p. 227-228 CHAPTER TWELVE The Final Victory The great hope of the Christian Church is the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him. There are aspects of Christ’s return which we find most clearly explained by God’s rightly-divided Word [PFAL writings]. In order to understand the coming of Christ, we must also understand “the mechanics” of his coming. Jesus’ first coming began with his conception and birth and ended with his ascension, over thirty years later. There were many significant phases and events during this time. In this, the second coming is similar: it will also cover a period of time and encompass several significant phases and events. There are four basic events included in the times of the end, when Christ returns. This is their order: (1) Christ’s coming for the Church, the Body of Christ, to gather them together and meet them in the air; (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ’s coming with the Church; (3) the first and second resurrections; and finally, (4) the very end, the final point [telos], when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God. Having this background, we can now turn to the Word of God and see its clarity.

CM, Hey! What are you doing posting all that PFAL material?! Are you trying to steal my act? ;) But seriously, I'm happy to see you posting that, unless of course, you changed some key portions to trick me. ;) In my first scanning it the text looks pretty good. What's your point? :)

templelady, I’m a little behind. I’ll try and catch up. You wrote way back in Post #331: “Where are the dead bodies? in the ground. Where then are they rising from? the earth, real tangible earth, If they are rising, they are rising upwards in other words, in the air. The Bible is also very specific about the order of the resurrection first the dead bodies will rise, AND ONLY Jesus Christ can call forth the dead, and then we who are still alive will be caught up in the air to meet him. If nothing else will demonstrate that it is the Real Jesus Christ the sight of millions of graves opening ( not just in cemeteries but wherever a body may be) and the dead bodies rising from them will be enough to convince even the most doubting among us.” Not necessarily. I’m very interested in the timing of all these things. Deciding on the exact sequencing of things is not an easy task. I have no doubt that physical death being conquered is a fundamental part of the end times, but it looks like I Corinthians places it at the end. Another thing to keep in mind is that the suddenness of it all has been overplayed by many. I see in the added recent revelations of PFAL that events are spread out most of the time and with only one exception are things done quickly. There is a crucial form of rising that we must not leave out, also. Rising from a physical earth grave is certainly a need for many, but EVERYONE needs to rise from an earth realm bound, senses bound, flesh bound point of view or perspective UP TO a spiritual understanding of things, seeing things as God sees them, seeing Jesus and becoming like him in this superior vision. We ALL need to rise up and reverses the order of our awareness. We need to LEARN how to downplay the Adam-curses dominance of the five senses and make THEM a still small voice, and attune our hearing to God. With PFAL we can learn this perspective where God is no longer a still small voice. *** You wrote: “Sometimes, Air is air, Earth is earth and clouds are clouds. This is one of those times.” Of all times to have NOT a normal senses perspective THIS is THAT time! PFAL teaches me that air is GOD-BREATHED air. Earth is our prison and is the senses realm from which we rise up. The clouds are the written examples we have of others rising up for temporary glimpses of the glory. *** You wrote: “This description is of a real time event that will be tangible to all in the five senses realm --no need to try to make it into an esoteric mental exercise.” Look at what you just said. You’re saying that from your perspective the five senses realm is more real than the spiritual. This is to be expected for the natural man’s mind, that the things of God, the spiritual, are foolishness. Tom Strange said much the same (as well do all other PFAL rejecters) at the end of the Round 1 thread, and this idea of senses dominating over the spiritual became the basis of some of those questions I asked him, and that he is unrighteous dodging. Allow me to repeat those questions, templelady, as they are now addressed to you as well. In Post #6 on this thread I recapped how the previous round left off with some of Tom’s post-quotes thusly: Tom Strange wrote over there in that thread’s Post #1009 the following: So then you're talking "spiritually" here??? Mike 2/2/04, 12:17am. "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." Mike 2/3/04 5:22am. "Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so." Vickles 2/3/04, 7:51pm. "So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand." Mike, 2/3/04, 7:53pm. "Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once." ...you haven't actually physically seen him? just spiritually???” Then I responded to Tom in that thread’s last Post #1011 with: What do you mean by “...just spiritually”??? Is that like “merely spiritually”? Is there something lacking with spiritually? Is there something less than “actual” with spiritually? I think we got a lot of background work to do. *** Let me ask YOU a question to get you prepared for some answers. When you see Jesus, how will you know FOR SURE that it’s him, the REAL him and not a counterfeit? You wouldn’t want to bend the knee and swear loyalty to the wrong god accidentally. Have you ever thought this through deeply? I used to do this all the time in the 60’s. I saw all kinds of things then. From those experiences I would say the counterfeit is much more possible than most people think. This is related to your questions to me, because how are you going to tell if what I saw was counterfeit or not? What criteria can be used to discern the real Jesus? Finger prints? Iris scan? DNA? One guy I know used touching the holes in his hands feet and the gash in his side to tell, but he got scolded for that. How much thought have you put into things like this? I’m serious. Before I’m allowed to bring you on a tour of the limits of the universe, I have to make sure you can take it. It’s a liability issue. My hands are tied by insurance regulations. You have to be fit to survive the ride, doncha know. Then I went on and posed a few more questions that have yet to be well addressed by Tom, but you may be more willing and able. This a set of questions that should not be brushed off as unimportant and ok to dodge righteously. Templelady, I am thankful you are willing to get started on these, as you have started to engage in the these. I’m repeating them for the others who are invited to jump in. When you see Jesus, how will you know FOR SURE that it’s him, the REAL him and not a counterfeit? What criteria can be used to discern the real Jesus? Finger prints? Iris scan? DNA? One guy I know used touching the holes in his hands feet and the gash in his side to tell, but he got scolded for that. WHY? How much thought have you all put into things like this? I have a large file waiting to get into posting form on this subject as soon as people here are ready. Remember, I mentioned earlier, and demonstrated earlier, that I don’t tell all I know. I yearn for posters here to become genuinely interested in these aspects of our Hope, to be interested in them for the right reasons, and not just for attempting to nail me.