Mike

I'm getting the feeling there's a conspiracy here to get me to derail this thread and fill it with my InfoMercial. It's too bad you folks don't have any Search Skills, because most of those questions and topics I've already discussed here. The answers were posted, and many of them are still on the board. Some threads were purged (as were many threads of many posters) when the bandwidth bills were getting out of hand a few years ago.

There goes the bandwidth bill!!!

Well, paw, I see you haven't lost your delicate sense of humor. Well Ham, I'd urge you, don't look at the senses.

Howdy Eyesopen, I’m not sure we’ve met here. Just to introduce myself, I’m strongly proPFAL. I came here to GreaseSpot with that conviction firmly planted. I wasn’t trying to PROVE this assertion of mine, that PFAL is God-breathed, instead I ASSUME it. Often here people have mistaken statements of mine as proof of this assertion, but I always try to point out that is not the case. Waysider quoted me to this effect just after your post with this assertion of mine and then asked the reasons. I have not provided those reasons on this thread, but I have on many other threads in the past. Summarizing one the many thoughts that come up when these reasons are discussed, I don’t think it CAN be proved. Not like a mathematical theorem. When the discussion gets around to these kinds of proofs, I bring up the question of “How does anyone ever know anything?” Have you ever thought of how someone might try to prove that the KJV Bible reflects an ancient work that was the pure Word of God and not man?” The only way I’ve ever found to prove that FOR ONESELF is to believe it and see the results. The only way I’ve ever found to prove that FOR SOMEONE ELSE is to encourage them to believe it and see the results.

No, I didn’t point out a parallel. I simply pointed out there that that the author being dead does not automatically mean his writings are useless. I would be wrong if I asserted there that VPW being dead automatically put him in the same category as Moses, who is also dead. I was not asserting that at all, but it seems you thought I was. No, I put Dr’s writings into the same category as Moses’ for reasons FAR REMOVED from the fact that they both died.

Don't forget, we are told to reckon the old man dead. If he's up and walking, that old man nature might not like being reckoned dead. *** What I was trying to say is that every human has to tolerate adversity and injustice, and though widely differing in timing and intensity, we all face the ultimate catastrophe, death, and that dwarfs most of the other previous mini-catastrophes. So there’s a commonality we humans all share in dealing with the negative crap of life. On top of that we OLGs have a vastly differing commonality. We OLGs saw something different for a while that was very positive. We OLGs who have seriously come back to that positive part now see it as even more positive. *** Here’s what I mean about the statistics. If we grads had been, instead of a Bible ministry, a tiddly-wink playing club of 100,000 who held tournaments of all sizes from home living rooms to giant hotels, then a certain number of human patterns of power trips and stepping on toes would surely emerge and a certain number us would have even died in the process. Some of us could then have gone on to decry the evils of tiddly-wink playing, and try to rid society of that scourge. A worthy thing to look into? We were humans, and we were playing a much tougher game than tiddly-winks, and the stakes were higher, and so were the consequences and rewards. I think the rewards are worth looking into.

doojable, God's Word is as much God as God is God. If the books ARE God-breathed, then they are also the mind of Christ. *** You wrote earlier: “Mike, most of us are prone to gather five senses information. Uhhh... it's the first thing we do as babies.” Yes, however, the way religion is set up, it’s often the case that when someone gets that “religious bug” or even genuinely born again, FIRST THING they can do is tend to think that any little thought or emotion is revelation. When this happens dutiful reading of the scriptures and dutiful searching for pertinent facts in human relations both fall by the wayside. Here is the laziness to which I had referred. It was this common human phenomenon that Key #4 was addressed.

Ouch! A dead man's writings. Moses is dead. Should we throw out his writings? *** You ask How do I know? Statistics. Statistics like: all the Twelve Apostles died, fourteen including Paul and Barnabas. Where was the way God provided for them to not get eaten up and die? He may have provided it, but it wasn't received. Eventually everyone dies. I was just looking at the grand overview and seeing that the suffering we experienced was rather trivial (compared to victims of war, plague, disaster...), but the benefits exceeded all since the first century. *** Yes, the books need a preacher. Where will we find someone who is willing to announce the good news that the books are still good for us, and even better than the first time? Any ideas?

No, no, doojable, I wasn't linking laziness with staying. The laziness I mentioned was linked to gathering 5 senses information. The staying I asked about was linked to my intuition that SOMETHING very good that was in there too, along with the BS, and it was the good and perfect that motivated staying. For some of us it was HARD WORK to stay and tolerate the BS.

cman, The essence of this is that we can't be lazy and expect to be spiritual too. We must exert the effort to seek, find, and then learn what we can, and THEN God comes in with revelation. George, Yes, the whole key reads "Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know." HOWEVER, Dr used an example in the AC where it was NOT 5 senses scripture reading that illustrated the proper collection of sense information. It was where Jesus heard that the man born blind, whom he had healed, was thrown out of the temple. Jesus ASKED people where the man was. The laziness factor in studying the Word applied to other types of needed facts too. The Key #4 was primarily aimed at not being lazy in scripture reading, but it applied elsewhere too. rascal, Why did you stay then? I stayed for the good stuff, and it was plenteous. Are you sure you are not just forgetting that which WAS perfect? There HAD to be STRONG reasons to tolerate the BS, and there WAS BS in there too. Maybe if you exercised your analytical skills here at GreaseSpot more on rekindling the positives your memory would spot that which is perfect.

doojable, I think God got the job done that He wanted done. The books got printed and distributed all around the globe. If there had been no ministry, a similar percentage of us would have gotten eaten up by some other of life's many kinds of tragedies by now... and THEN eventually we ALL get hit by some kind of overwhelming tragedy, and then that's it. Everyone suffers and dies... It's just that in that grueling universal human process of suffering and dying (mixed with some laughs and loves) we grads, especially OLGs, got to see something perfect, and it's still here to see again.

dmiller, YOU TOO! Up so late! I think he means that if you want to significantly GROW your ability to receive revelation you’re going to have to face a significant foe and use ALL that God has made available in order to succeed. Because of this, NT believers stand an MUCH better opportunity to receive revelation since they have extra leverage over the resisting powers. If a NT believe neglects this extra leverage then something’s wrong and that growth in receiving revelation is not going to happen. Does that make any sense? In other words, the number of people who COULD revelation was rare in the OT, but that number has the potential of being greater in the NT with SIT. In other other words, if SIT were neglected CHANCES ARE you aren't going to get heavy revy... unless you're one of those RARE individuals like an OT prophet... not too many of them... In other other other words, the SIT Key#3 to Walking in the Spirit was just that ... A KEY! not an iron-clad hard-fast rule... I unfortunately DO remember scenarios like that, it's just that they were much more in the later years. I was pretty lucky in that I was able to dodge the dark spots in the ministry, in the early years. As the years went by I'd hear more dark stories, but somehow I kept finding great learning situations. Finally the dark spots became prevalent... around 1985ish.

WordWolf, What are you doing up so late? No one was perfect in the application of the doctrine. The doctrine (especially written) was pure, but the we all blew the applications at times, even vpw. But then again, SOME TIMES it went phenomenally well. It's what went RIGHT that I try to hunt down and figure out.

To guess what your name means Means I'll have to ponder it.

Please allow my drawing attention to the understated. I'd re-write your sentence to read "That is not IN MY OPINION how a MOG is to confront evil." If God had a differing opinion for that particular set of situations, and then told vpw to do it in print, then that's God's business and He need not consult you about it. Or course, that's a big "if" as I well know. But then again, I have been looking at the printed materials for ten years now almost. I'm benefiting from them. *** George Aar, yes it was the STRUCTURE of benzine to which I referred. It's circular. Someone had a dream about snakes in a circle and then saw that the carbon atoms in benzine were in the same positions. It's been a long time... like 40 years... since I was taught this stuff... high school and early college... long before PFAL... but what I had learned earlier then later fit well with what VPW taught about discovery and originality... oh my here's the back end of that pesky little plagiarism issue...

Have you ever read Arthur Koestler's (of "The Thirteenth Tribe" fame) book "The Sleep Walkers"? It documents great advancements in science that took place as the scientist dreamed at night after totally failing to get the answer by the normal methods. The most famous example is the chemist who dreamed of a ring of (I think 6) snakes devouring each others' tail in a circle. The next morning he solved his previously intractable problem and discovered benzine. *** polarbear, your answer is excellent. You quoted Key #11 - Do not be deceived by the five senses. So how do we know when the five senses are to be accepted and when are they to be rejected?

Ok, lets's get this discussion underway. In review: Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know. In conflict: Thread Topic Title - Don't look at the five senses Some of you might want to challenge me with: "Since I heard Dr teach both of these items, that proves he was wrong by contradicting himself." Ok, I'll accept, but first we might want to document the source of "Don't look at the five senses" to examine it's context, RIGHT? Surely we want to make sure the wording is right before we proceed. Why DID people often say "Don't look at the five senses" if they knew Dr taught that Key #4? But first, is there anyone here that can reconcile these two seemingly contradictory statements? When were we taught that it WAS it right to go by the 5 senses, and when was it NOT right?

doojable, You outlined EXACTLY what I meant by TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions). However, I think you simply missed how, when and where Dr tried to do something about it. He may have not done it the way YOU wanted it done, but he did it. In his last magazine issue he TWICE (in both the main article and in the Our Times editorial) issued the warning that “dark clouds” were enveloping us. In many Our Times articles he addressed things in a way that if we had been paying attention we’d have got. Since he put many corrections to the TVTs in the tape and print record, these records serve to humble us into seeing that we did not in any way RECEIVE all that was taught. Many of the things that went wrong (or went MORE wrong) were because of us OLGs slowing down the learning processes as we got more "Mature" in the Word and/or got more official status. Example in this topic: when "Don't go by your five senses" was inappropriately blurted out, we could have learned Key #4 enough to bandi it about in the presence of the kind of immature leaders reported on this thread. I did that. I also noticed that few took it seriously. The good news is that those attempts by Dr to correct things are still in the record and I’ve already reported many here. The good news is that we can still get it right. AND there are many more things besides correction. The stuff on the Return is dazzling! What went most right in Dr’s ministry was the print record he AND his editors AND his teachers hammered out under God’s supervision. Sure many things went wrong, but why focus ALWAYS on that? Just for a little while, here, thank God that what went right in the ministry AND in all of our lives is that we saw God and His Son in PFAL, and that we can do it again even better the second time. It’s all in print. There are many ways and times Dr tried to correct things, but we OLGs (Older Leaderlike Grads) got less and less meek to Dr’s later teachings as we got to know better and better his earlier teachings (film class). There are so many surprises in the print (and tape) record that I can totally assure you, doojabble, that you are simply unaware of all the attempts he made. Thank God, that as we find these items, we can fix things like the issue under question. *** I was being sarcastic about no one remembering key #4 because no one brought it up. Seemed so pertinent that I used color, and I thank you for repeating it.. twice the impact.

...and of course, because of everyone's great learning capacity and retentive memories, I'm sure we are all now poised and ready to integrate the following more advanced information into the discussion. From the Advanced Class syllabus' "16 Keys top Walking in the Spirit" we read: Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know. Discuss and explain... if you can. <_<

Count me in for a "yes" here, Goey. The other items looked too negative for me to ponder much... boring too. I have too often found that whenever I've fallen into focusing on negative items like the ones you listed, no spiritual benefit results, just me getting negative. I've learned to avoid that kind of thinking as much as possible. That's just me. :)

No these aren't straws I'm holding. What I reported about Judas I got from Bo Reahard's Orientalisms class and Bishop Pillai tapes. GADS! You people are all so busy criticizing a set of teachings that you either can't remember or never got! YES, Judas is misunderstood. People focus on his negatives and ignore his positives. Jesus selected him as an apostle. He worked for Jesus as the treasurer of Jesus "entourage." He was sent out WOW. paired off with some other apostle and healed people and cast out spirits. He blessed people BIGTIME! Yes, he did great wrong... but sticking to this negative side, which was worse? ...his betrayal of Jesus or his giving up and committing suicide and missing pneuma hagion on Pentecost? The whole point to Dr teaching us "The Day Judas Hanged Himself" was to show that GOD LOVED HIM, even though he had betrayed His son. Heck, we do the same thing, spiritually equivalent, when we grieve the Holy Spirit, and God still forgives us. God forgave Judas; he was a wonderful man. ...a man of GOD! ...an APOSTLE! God loved him. God forgave him. God offered him the new birth! I think some of you people need to see that. *** How would YOU try to convince someone in Uriah's family that David was still a man of God? Think about it for a minute. It would be a good exercise in "creative" writing to come up with a plan to convince Uriah's brother that David still got revelation from God after him murdering Uriah. Try it. Then apply that thinking to Judas. Force yourself to look at the good side that HE DID HAVE. Ask yourself... if you were one of the Twelve apostles (not Judas) and you found out that it was Judas after all, would YOU break bread with him in the Upper Room? Pray with him at the proper times? Would you be of the mindset that COULD forgive him, or would you operate in the mindset that you do when you think of VPW and only magnify to the skies all the reasons to NOT forgive him? *** Hey! All this money stuff I've said, all this Judas stuff I've said... we were all taught it. All us OLGs at least. Why doesn't anyone remember it?

I think the idea of non-profit means something a little different. People can still get paid reasonable salaries (meaning pretty high) in a non-profit corporation, but the extra money left over after all expenses and salaries are paid must then go back into corporate activities, and not into share holders pockets. That’s a pretty technical idea, and not a general financial principle solely governed by the prefix “non.” *** Didn’t anyone here take the Orientalisms class? Where did Judas get the money to pay for the property where he was ultimately committed suicide? Was it from “the thirty pieces of silver” that he got for betraying Jesus? Think logically, and watch your times. John 12:1 ¶Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. 3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. There’s an ancient scrap of paper that fell somewhere behind my desk, and it documents that the Sandskrit for “bag” is “cornucopia,” ;) but I can’t reach it.

Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes? May I challenge you to show from scripture that teaching and preaching God's Word was supposed to ALWAYS be a freebee? That's something OUR CULTURE teaches with a vengeance but I don't see that same attitude in Eastern culture. Ministering is just as much (and much more) an honorable service to perform for someone as window cleaning or waitressing, so WHY not expect cash for it? In Eastern culture people know that they owe MORE for receiving the teaching and preaching God's Word than for receiving food, clothing, or entertainment. I observe business as a hobby. I see how the SIZES of the tips for people like waitresses are a voluntary thing, but it's still considered dishonorable to stiff them after the have worked for us in service. Not so in our culture for the service of teaching and preaching God's Word in our broken culture, severely broken on this account. Why should a preacher not be able to charge for his services, but it’s fine for a plumber or a tree trimmer to do so? In our culture if a preacher delivers good feeling to a churchgoer it’s not considered stealing to walk out of the church “tipping” that preacher nothing or for contributing far less than what the preacher’s service provided. We will willingly pay $100 for one hour’s good feeling on a psychiatrist’s couch or for many other kinds of counseling, but not for preaching? It’s our culture that’s broken on this matter of insisting that teaching and preaching God's Word MUST be always free of monetary charge. We should be willing to pay MORE for that. As an educational exercise, might some dutiful poster search out HOW it is that our culture has developed such a screwy hang-up like this? I might throw out one possibility: Elmer Gantry. *** Or course, someone will quote “freely you have received, freely you should give.” But is that enough to form a whole theology that money should not be charged for a formal class that required equipment and supplies to run, plus a substantial initial investment in film and processing and regional staff to coordinate it all? I never saw, nor even heard of, a twig fellowship that charged an admission price. Many things were freely given to us back then and we freely gave them to strangers as we freely opened up our houses to them. *** It’s my opinion that one of the reasons to charge for the class was to GET RID of people who were there mainly for social reasons and who did not have the mental flexibility to jump over the cultural hoop which insists that all teaching and preaching God's Word be given away for nothing. I think the class was a bargain for those of us who wanted God more than money.

Yikes! I guess I should look at my Spell Checker's "On" light more accurately. Or maybe it's the settings, that ALL-CAPS words are not checked. Gosh, I hope this won't affect any of my rewards? But the GOOD NEWS, Belle, is that you don't have me set on "ignore" anymore!

I choose to look at the good, to look at it ACCURTELY, and to cultivate it.