Mike

Ohhhh. I thought you meant that I added words to the verse quotation. Hmmm. Don't we all add words to the words of the Biblical text, when we discuss that text, after quoting the text? When did the rule come down that we can only use words found within a verse, when discussing the verse? Is that what you are doing? Condemning my expression of an idea because I use my own words to describe it and not the words that the scholars who translated the Biblical text used? Please write us an essay on your new rule here. I think we all violate it often. */*/* I added words to show what I thought MAYBE the text was implying, or that other related texts could imply. I capitalized the word MAYBE, because I got the impression that you think I am committed to this budget idea.... when I am not. Evidently you have not seen the many caveats I have made in this thread that say I am NOT committed to this idea at all... NONE! This budget idea kept popping up over the decades as I read my Bible. It has nothing to do with the collaterals as you and others are stuck in a rut thinking. For decades I would notice this idea popping up, make a small note, and throw the note in my paper folder, and dismiss the idea completely.... sometimes for months, sometimes for years... until it popped up again as I read my Bible. To bad you didn't see this stand-offish attitude I have toward the budget idea. You and the others are so caught up in condemning me (along with VPW) that you can't fix your minds on a new idea. You are stuck in many ruts an have almost no idea why I posted this thread. I posted it to see the idea in daylight and focus for the first time, as I present it to the toughest audience I can imagine, to see if they can shoot down the idea, and see if I can defend it. This month is the first time I systematically explored this idea in my whole life. Do you see how wrong you were to think I got this from VPW and that I have been thinking this budget idea in all my doings since the 1970s ??? You (and the others here) just have no clue to what I think or what I am doing, and that convinces me you were scant on understanding in the past when VPW was alive. */*/* Too bad most of my audience has not the focus of mind to get it off VPW condemnation, and get it off Mike condemnation, and get it on the idea of the budget... just temporarily, for exploratory discussion. Every now and then someone makes a good point on the topic of the idea or may latest post on the idea, and I am happy for that. But for you to try and pry my conscience with statements like I had no heart for what Jesus went through in the Garden and how could I say such terrible things .... All I can say is you've stooped to become what you condemn. You, along with others quickly stoop to try and use the same mind control on me that TWI used on you, if it will win you an argument before others. That is what happens when you focus on hate and dislike and disgust in a brother in Christ. You become what you look at, if you do it long enough and hard enough. Read John's first epistle and see if you are skirting the edge of hate that he warns about there with how you regard your brother VPW, me, and other PFAL fans.

I neglected to cite which version I was quoting there. But I wouldn't add any words deliberately. It may have been one of those looser versions? I don't remember where I pasted that from now. Sorry if I erred...

I don't get it. Are you serious about implementing NT scriptures, yet you say the whole Bible is myths? Did you say that? That was my impression. It's hard for me, sometimes, to keep track of who wants to believe the Bible and who does not.

In all these 40 pages, did anyone ever once flash on these verses from Mark 5 and Jesus noticing that "virtue," a real spiritual commodity, had flowed out of him. Has anyone ever wondered what these verses were talking about? Why mention this part of the story, when we might think that the woman's healing was the big deal. Why did God put this "virtue" flow idea in there? What can we learn from this?

I should have included more of the Mark 5 pre-context for the virtue drain verses. Jesus was on the way to heal a sick girl. The virtue drain occurs while on the way. Then news arrives that the little girl had died. Big job ahead for Jesus and virtue.

Well if you folks were paying more attention to the idea, and less attention to finding rhetorical ways to shame me out of the idea, maybe you’d have come across this spiritual commodity in your scripture memory. This following scripture has an attention getting passage involving the flow of “virtue” or “good stuff.” Mark 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, “If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.” And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, “Who touched my clothes?” And his disciples said unto him,” Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?” And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change. These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit. WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead? Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him? Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job? These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it.

Rocky, why is it that you can't see that my calling Charity a rank amateur at evil is a compliment to her?

Nice try, but you are a rank amateur at conjuring up fear and condemnation. Here's a hint: even if you get skilled at this, it only works on those who have not made the Word the guiding light of their life.

Continuing to look at the idea and not the invalid criticisms, I ask you this: WHY would God put the idea of limited measure in where spiritual commodities are being talked about? We have no way of performing such measurements, nor understand what they mean.... YET God outs that idea of limited measure of spirit in the scriptures. I am trying to understand what He is telling us here.

What did Jesus mean by teaching us that prayer? Sure, sometimes people do God's will. But all sin, sickness, and death are against God's will.

That looks familiar, somehow.

FINITE MEASURE versus INFINITE I realize that using the word budget is a real hot loaded word a real attention getter. I used it to get my own attention in my file cabinet with my paper folder for this topic. It was a very underused folder and it needed an attention getting name to avoid getting completely lost in my file cabinet but it communicates something to me and I haven’t been real clear about what that is, so then so I’m finally getting to that. This is the beginning list I promised for the budget scriptures. It seems that dumping the whole list here would mean some items get less scrutiny, so I’ll do it in pieces. */*/* The reason budget is such a crazy attention getter is because we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets. But we also know that God doesn’t always get His way on the Earthly flesh realm that we live in and die in. The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth. Brand new to the Bible at age 22, I had never even seen a Bible in church, and never touched one, never read one. We had a book we called a Missal, which was Bible clippings, and prayers and passages from the Middle Ages, and a big mixture of a lot of things. But they looked just like Bibles with black covers and ribbons. But I had never read the Bible at all until I became a hippie, and then my working of it was very lame, and then it suddenly changed one day with my first twig fellowship. One of the first things I noticed in the Bible was that a lot of times God just barely won the battles in the Old Testament. It was a struggle between God and Pharaoh in Egypt. It was a struggle between Archangel Michael and that angel who reported in Daniel 9. Then in everyday life, when God would win the struggle it was always just by a hair, or it seemed sometimes the timing was just at the last minute. These were just impressions I got from life, and I’m noticing at age 22, that it’s in the Bible too that God seemed to be somewhat limited in His dealings with people in the Old Testament. And then it changed with Jesus. John 3:34-35 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. Jesus was given spirit without measure, as opposed to the way things were done in the Old Testament were spirit was given with measure. Jesus got an infinite dose of spirit whatever that means. Which brings us to the great principle. But more on that later. Elisha said, “Leave me a double portion of your spirit…” Elisha had a natural man mind that was enmity against God, and thought the things of God were foolishness, and had a natural reaction of fear to any kind of spiritual intervention by the true God. Daniel 9 talks about the reactions of the other people around Daniel to the angelic visit and how fearful they were about it, resembling the way wild animals are afraid of humans. */*/* 2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 2:10 Elijah replied, “That’s a difficult request! If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” [NET] Remarkably, the Bible records 28 miracles done by Elisha and 14 done by Elijah. Elisha knew enough that he needed an interface with God so he wouldn’t be afraid, and he wouldn’t be ridiculing the things of God that he heard from Him, and that he could embrace things the way God saw things. A natural man mind can’t do this. It needs help. That’s what “spirit upon” was. But what’s the most pertinent here is that Jesus got it without measure, while people before him got it with measure. It was limited; not infinite. I have no idea what double spirit means, but I know God is saying something that’s getting my attention there, and I keep it in mind. why not triple? Why didn’t that prophet ask for triple? I don’t know but I do know we asked for double and that’s interesting to me. The big question I get from all this is “Why is God using the idea of MEASURE here for spirit and spiritual things? Measure denotes limits, finite bounds to size. That’s what budgets are. Our cars do not have infinite gas tanks or batteries to run on. There is a FINITE MEASURE to how much gas or electricity we have to move our cars, and this applies to lots of other things. This is the stuff budgets are made of if a wise eye is aware of such finite measures. */*/* Sometimes and in some places and some scriptures the “budget” seems a little tight. If it states it in the scriptures then we know something, and we may not know at all, but at least we got SOME kind of info from the scripture. Paul was being hassled by people a lot, and he prayed (with believing I’d think) for God to open His door to infinite resources and fix this hindering situation. I was stunned to read in my early twenties that God had this answer to Paul’s prayers for deliverance: 2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. There seems to be a sense of glory in just squeaking by with a finite measure… or budget. This verse STILL gives me cause to pause, and think a little about the things going on behind the scenes spiritually with Jesus and the good angels, doing whatever they do. The verse tells me here it was a tight budget time for Paul at that time… unlike other times where Paul was on top of things, like in jail and singing in a friendly earthquake. */*/* Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.” Look how explicit this scene is here: Mark 14:35,36 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” */*/* Giving a measure indicates a turning away from the possibility of infinite. Giving a measure indicates a budget if it includes a wise handler of the finite commodity. A budget means a wise handling of a finite measure.

Not quite. There is an element involved where I simply have better things to do elsewhere.... often. I didn't want to be so harsh as to say so outright, but you twisted my arm. But I still care for you here, so I make some time available to minister here. If you want me to spend more time here, try pretending that I am succeeding in helping you here.... and maybe it will catch my attention to re-prioritize.

Yes, we've been all over the map. That is with exploratory expeditions do.

I'm going with myth-like or mythy. A figure of speech is not a falsehood, though it is not true to fact; the gist is true, not the details that shape the gist.

No, it it was an admission that I needed to state better detail for the idea than Post #1 has.

There are some figures of speech in the Bible that ale like myths. In another thread last week I stated I believe Jesus' parable of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is like a myth, but it has teaching value anyway. I see the courtroom scenes in Job as completely myth like in the sense that it is pretty obvious that this a grand Condescensio figure of speech. God is teaching us something about the spiritual realm using scenery that is very physical and earthbound. We dare not read too much into it. I have heard and find very believable that the conversation between the beautiful Enchanter and Eve took about 5 years to actually transpire, while the scripture makes it look like a 5 minute scene. That makes that conversation bit mythy, wouldn't you say? I am REAL careful before I call anything in the Bible a myth like figure of speech.

That's fair. Part of my most current comments here are along the lines that my idea is not crazy and it is not disrespectful of God in any way. ALSO, please bear in mind I still have one more list of scriptures to post. Part of my motivation in this thread is to test my idea to see if it can work, and at least stand up to discussion a little. I am not committed to the budget idea, but it has popped up over and over for many years now, so I want to see it has merit. So far I am a little disappointed with my old paper file's scriptures. I have lots of them in it, but lots of them are less solid than I though when I first archived them. I am learning about the details of this idea as I discuss it here. Maybe I will put it in mothballs when I finally finish. Sorry I am going so slow.

Not really. I am just trying to take the hints of some amazing cosmic machinery of angels and devils that the Bible lays out regarding the interactions between the spiritual world and physical world. There is a great richness in the spiritual world the Bible tells us about in minimal ways. We've seen the in the thread in the angel talk from Daniel 9, and so many other places in the written Word. Because I view these scriptures as NOT myths, it shouldn't be thought of as myth that I grope around the clues we have. */*/* Oh GOSH !! I just realized I still owe you folks the last list of scriptures, that I have slowly been refining for posting. Sorry about that. I've been busy. Of course that means you haven't yet seen the whole idea. Soon to be posted in a major motion picture theater near you!! Check your newspapers for showtimes.

No! I insist on the right to move the goalposts! LoL. I didn't even read the rest of your post yet. This is not a debate to me, where someone wins and someone loses. I am exploring an idea, and you are not going to tell me how to do it or not do it. The reason I am doing what you call "moving the goalposts" is because I am trying to refine the idea under discussion. If my initial statement did not adequately communicate my idea, then please now drop your debate mode approach, and adopt the patch I have just suggested. I reject your rejection of my refining the goalposts in an intellect inquiry. I am exploring an idea, and I just made it more clear to you what that idea was in my last post, so please go back with this in mind and re-read, sans the debate mode in your brain busy churning as your re-read. I hope the rest of you post doesn't hang on it's opening, because I negated the opening in my mind and the way I will proceed. I'll probably skim read the rest of your post to see if there's anything as interesting as your last long post on Job. But first I wan to see if there are others posting here below who want to tell me how to explore my idea.

What is silly would be asking "Is God is limited by a budget?" You are mistaken if you think that is what I am asking here. Or maybe you are deliberately trying to distort my question here? I am NOT asking "Is God is limited by a budget?" because that would mean there is something bigger than God that imposes the budget. */*/* What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?" and then I go on with further detail to include within my budget question my guess that the method God uses is a universal budgetary one. I am asking if the method He uses in setting up His moral order here, is to impose a general budgetary limitation on ALL spiritual interactions upon the physical realm. This method really does limit the devil much more than God, because in His foreknowledge God makes this budget just the right size for Him to get His work done, and deny the devil the same. This is a subtle point you may be missing. God is not limited by His budget; He squeaks by just right and just in time every time. It is the devil who miscalculates his budget and loses when confronting God and His people who are walking with Him. */*/* I really liked your analysis of Job, and made a copy of it. I haven’t read all of it yet, but what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order. I also think it is a little ironic how you reject my budget idea, that it may be a tiny glimpse into God’s Moral Order. You criticize my idea as one having understanding of the genuine Moral Order of God, and mine is counterfeit by your authoritative comparison. I am asking if the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing. I think others have tried to explain this same glimpse as being like God sense of being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense. At best, both my budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given, as to why we live in a world that is pretty much run by the devil right now, but soon “…Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”

I understand there is a spectrum of intensity for these traits. I also see a street culture in this guy that exacerbates a few other traits. This guy seems pretty advanced in the disease. Fortunately I never saw my friend this far gone.

I agree. Peter talks on Pentecost how David did not go to heaven ahead of Jesus, but was still in the grave on that day. Plus, Jesus did not have to die to go to heaven. He went up to heaven alive, not going down first to the grave, and then to heaven. Same with us; we will be awoken from sleep and taken up alive like Jesus.

Let's get back to the topic. What do you believers in consciousness after death, or consciousness in spite of death, think about the "second" Lazarus, who was Jesus best friend. Do you think this Lazarus was unhappy that Jesus yanked him back to Earth from Heaven?

Well, I mean REALLY obvious. It was only in the very early stages that I think he had no idea. It says he was a man, so we as men ought to be able to relate to what he experienced. One human reaction to hearing something outrageous is to think "Did I HEAR that wrong?" or another is "DId they really mean to say THAT?" I think it takes a few rounds for humans to be totally convinced of very unusual things, at times.