Mike

God is so big in grace mercy that He can work us sinners. T-Bone, you just don't see how big GOD is. You're limited to the Roman Catholic model where only the "goodie goodie" saints get to be in God's presence and get revelation. That's not the Biblical model.

I'm trying to remember what Job said about books....

I don't elevate him. I'm elevating the revelation God gave to him.

Is this a flashback I'm having????? Didn't we already try this route?

God was behind that claim, energizing it. If it was merely vp making that claim, we here at GreaseSpot and many other places would not be discussing THOUSANDS OF TIMES what a back-woods preacher said in Dayton Ohio in late 1967 in front of a 16 mm movie camera. PFAL page 83 was NOT one of those items tucked away in a corner. There WERE some of those, but THIS one on page 83 was taken straight from the film class almost word for word. EVERYONE heard that statement from PFAL page 83, EVERY TIME they took the class. It was right out in front of us all the time. Anyone who thinks it's obscure in any way should look forward to a lot more surprises in the written forms of PFAL. I said the earth shook when he walked because God was walking with him. And here it still shakes! *** This PFAL page 83 claim is just one of 22 such similar claims I documented in Post #312 on this thread: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...9131&st=300 I have a collection of about 90 such claims. Funny thing, when I first started posting many claimed that I was going against Dr's own teachings by ascribing God-breathed status to the collaterals. They insisted that I was speaking contrary to Dr's teaching and laughed when I said I had 90 such statements. Finding even ONE such statement, therefore, is an indictment on the thoroughness with which those mocking posters used in their own PFAL study. Here are two more for good measure: TNDC pages 34 and 116.

Like you, I meant REAL change, not trivial change. Turning to Jesus necessitates that it is GOD's Jesus we turn to, and not to a "jesus" of our own making. Accuracy is important. If we love him we will WANT to get his personality down accurately. We want to become LIKE him, accurately, as God sees him, not like our own constructs of him.

jen-o You wrote: "the set of all items (without exception) and the set of all items (without distinction) contain the exact same items..." That may be the case IF we decided to agree on terms beforehand where "distinction" and "exception" will be defined as you set out. But I may refrain, as I write MY thesis, to NOT agree with your usage of terms. Within MY thesis, I will start out by defining terms the way the way I will be using them. Thomas Kuhn did this in 1962, in a book titled “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.” He needed a word to describe an idea he had. He turned to an abandoned word, that had been out of use for many decades or more, and redefined it HIS way. It was the word “paradigm.” In 1968 I took a college class on the History of Science. The professor was a student of Thomas Kuhn and based the entire course on Kuhn's one book. She told us that someday it would be a famous book. We went on a field trip to see him at Princeton and I got to talk to him along with just a very small handful of classmates who made the trip. He told us of how he coined the term “paradigm.” Not long ago Time Magazine called “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” one of the most influential books of the Twentieth Century, and cited it as the originator of “paradigm.” The reason you heard of that word is because that book became super famous. If it hadn’t become famous at all, Kuhn’s coinage FOR HIS BOOK would still have been valid. Authors do it all the time. If you want to understand PFAL you must become meek and adopt the author’s nomenclature. Q.E.D. *** I did an entire thread here titled “Why Does a Mirror Reverse Left and Right?” to demonstrate the relativity of definitions. In this case it was the definition of the word “reverse.” Check it out: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=mirror+reverse I suspect the ASCII art used in that thread to illustrate the riddle’s solution is all distorted due to numerous software changes in GreaseSpot since the thread was first posted. However it should still give your mind an exercise on the idea of dictionary definitions like it’s never had before.

That's pretty much the same thing I just said. Sin is where we have the Word wrong in our minds, which sometimes even leaks out into our actions. Repenting from sin is more than completing a 12 Step program to stop some action. Repenting is changing the mind from wrong thinking to right thinking. Messiah (Hebrew) = Christ (Greek) Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, so turning to him accurately and wholly (integrity = wholeness) is the same as turning to the accuracy and integrity of the Word.

Actually Kesey was doing clinical grade acid administered to him by the CIA in an insane asylum. He was a paid volunteer for the acid experiments and worked the midnight shift at the asylum. In those days acid was legal. This was 1960 or so. It was made illegal in 1966.

I'd like to second this, and also comment on the OTHER side of the coin as I see it. Compared to many of the splinter groups I have approached in the last 10 years, CFF is about the most civil and gentle.

Well, if you look back at Post #193 you'll see that I posted something simple, on-topic, and was ready to move on. I struggled valiantly to keep it on the CFF topic, but everyone else wanted to bring up other things that led directly to my bringing up the written PFAL deprivation. But this shouldn't be surprising. If my thesis is right, that most of our difficulties were due to missing the written PFAL component, and the difficulties are the mainstay of most posters, then OF COURSE my message is going to always emerge as what went wrong and how to right it. Man's basic spiritual problem is the integrity and accuracy of God's Word is not alive in the mind. This holds for CFF as well.

I don't think that's right at all. Plus, I think that people who haven't cracked the books in 20 years are in NO position to judge what's in them.

Nearly every word in any dictionary has multiple definitions. Add to that the not-so-common dialects like I mentioned above and each word can have a wide range of meaning. No, I'll decline your invitation to speak the more common dialects. Among grads I encourage growing up into PFAL English, an admittedly uncommon language, but a far more powerful one. It's a necessary one if you want to read PFAL with the understanding the author intended. If you want to read "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest" and want to get the author intended meaning, you'll have to get to know what KEN KESEY's definition of the word "combine" is and a few other Kesey-isms, or it's deeper meaning will fly over YOUR nest. *** PS - The idea of PFAL English is tied to Mark 16's "new tongues" for the Appearing Administration as opposed to old SIT of the Grace Administration. Reference I Cor 13 where tongues cease... more developing as Drudge would say....

Come on, really though, do you actually want to learn this? What's the difference between "exception" and "distinction" ? Are you saying they are 100% synonymous? Of course they are not. Same with "all without exception" and "all without distinction." They're SPELLED differently, so they CAN have different meanings. Different spelling = different meaning, usually. Many authors use idiomatic expressions of their own, or idioms that are not generally popular. In God's Word we want to know how HE uses the word "all" and not how YOU use the word "all." Dr taught that we could see more clearly if we knew this when we come across GOD using that word. If you want to embrace your own idiomatic usage of "all" then fine, it doesn't affect me. But if you want to know what is written in PFAL when you come across that word, then you will have to yield to the author's use of that word. Most grads only ever thought of applying "all without exception" and "all without distinction" to their KJVs, but the ultimate application is in written PFAL when it occurs in the text placed between KJV verses. The same is true for "Jesus Christ" and "Christ Jesus" and "Jesus" and "Christ" and "The Lord Jesus Christ" etc. All those phrases have different meanings as Dr taught us. This is useful to know for our KJV reading, but ESPECIALLY USEFUL for the written PFAL passages placed between KJV verses.

Thanks for the laundry saving tip, and the grammar lesson, both rolled into one: (nouns insult but adjectives don't) Speaking of "moronic" you might want to Google "Venn Diagrams" and "Boolean Logic" to read up on it more. Maybe the moronic computer engineers and mathematicians who use them could use a little straightening out by your insight.

Let's get more specific, because there are TWO KINDS of teaching that came from TWI: the written and the verbal. You wrote: "cff continues to teach the errors (and lies) of twi..." Yes, they are not well equipped to root out the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), including all the elitism that poisoned us. Because they never mastered the written part of PFAL and are determined to "re-write" that without that mastery, they are doomed to failure in rooting out a number of old problems. *** You also wrote: "if they accept the teachings of a false prophet like vpw, then they are still in the dark" As I reported Post #193, they are rejecting the accuracy of the printed teachings of Dr (the good stuff) but they are no more able to root out the TVTs (the bad stuff) than they were when they were grunts for LCM. I think they are far more interested in reeling in the still many grads who respect the good teaching that was in the class and collaterals, than they are in getting the good stuff mastered.

I agree, that forgiveness does not entail turning the other cheek and allowing another punch to the jaw, nor should we entertain bad doctrine to smooth over disputes. But EVEN I can see (without careful study) that there is a difference between "all without exception" and "all without distinction." I also know there is a third phrase that pops up once in the collaterals (GMWD) and that's "all WITH distinction." I think I can venture a tiny into this. WhattheHey may need to correct me, but here goes. Place two sheets of paper on a table, each blank except for a circle drawn in the middle of each. Now take a crayon and shade the whole left sheet with color, while on the right sheet color in just the circle. The left sheet is "all without exception" and the right sheet is "all without distinction." Hey Hey, did I get it right?

SOME of us are still interested in forgiveness, in spite checkered past of this thread. I'll admit, it does seem like a quilting party some times here. If I Cor 3 were looked at carefully we can see (and later imitate) God's method of giving out (like in forGIVEness) rewards for walking in the light, and allowing people to punish themselves with darkness if they insist.

I think it's a profound disinterest in forgiving on the part of many.

still no CFF reference.... I'm getting out of here before the Topic Police show up... Just say something... ANYTHING about CFF..... THIS bold font section was what I was commenting on.

waysider, You quoted me thusly: "Both the originals from Paul and the collaterals from Victor Paul are "by revelation of Jesus Christ." Yes, Paul claimed that in Galatians 1:12, and Dr claimed it JCNG page 9. Did you miss that? I mean we all had JCNG... didn't you read the introduction? Page 9 is in the introduction. 7th edition that is. It was in italic print. I assume you knew about the Paul one. You DID? Didn't you? *** But waysider, aren't you derailing a little? How's your post related to CFF? ;)

Now how do I, Mike, love with that knowledge? I try the best I can to debunk the "One Villian" theory as to what went wrong with TWI-1, SO THAT we can fix things better. Sure Dr and all leadership blew it on occasions. But what REALLY went wrong is that we all, both on the field and at root locales of all sorts, fell short, far short of receiving the material in print. So, we can't blame the printed teachings one iota for what went wrong with TWI-1. There are many, many elements of blame to be handed out, if that's what you're into. I'm not. I just constantly demonstrate that people who criticize the printed material are in for a major challenge if I hear about it and have the time and energy. The knowledge I definitely have. But so can you, just open the books. When grads take pot shots at the printed material, like that unnamed high official in CFF mentioned in Post #193 above, then I get real feisty and go to work at shooting down their shooting down with that knowledge of printed PFAL the Father has graciously given me in the last ten years of study. That’s how I love grads. I stop them when they start hurting themselves by blaspheming the pure printed Word of God given to us. By the way, that unnamed high official used to post here a lot but high tailed it and ran as soon as I started posting 5 years ago. There’s one thing high officials of all those splinter groups just can’t stand and that’s losing a debate in public. ANYTHING BUT THAT! Right Don’tWorryBeHappy!? Look how the CFF leaders, and the igotout Bastille gatekeepers run and hide from Don’tWorryBeHappy. I LOVE it! Did you see how I greeted him here? I LOVED it! The clergy must be held accountable for blowing it on missing the call(s) to master printed PFAL!

I liken it to "my muscle (energized by God) is bigger than he (the adversary) that is in this world, and likewise are my spiritual siblings being bigger." *** Christ most certainly IS the teacher, spiritually, not Dr. Wierwille. Same for the Epistles of Paul. They are really the Epistles of Christ from his ministry seated at the right hand of God, instead of his previous ministry on earth as recorded in the four gospels. Both the originals from Paul and the collaterals from Victor Paul are "by revelation of Jesus Christ." As Dr said, "I didn't write the book." *** You also wrote: “...so in behavior you can for the rest of our life remind someone how they are just not quite arrived yet...” Yes, I can. But that wouldn’t be love, so instead of moving TOWARDS mastering the Word (with it mastering me) I’d then be moving AWAY from mastery if I used my past ten years of study to lord it over someone with less. Sure, I can get very feisty here with those who try to out-feisty me, but I try to quickly calm right down and look for ways to bless with what God has shown me in these ten years. In the SNS teaching “Christ Formed In You” Dr addressed this subject. The SNS tapes were not copyrighted, and have been openly marketed by several grad groups for years now. With that and with fair use in mind let’s see what Dr said on that SNS tape #732 from November 24, 1974: In II Peter is a tremendous truth, chapter 3, verse 18. II Peter 3:18: But grow in [what?] grace [grow in grace], and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Grow in grace. The word "grace" literally could be translated "love's gifts." Grace is always God, who is love, at work. Love at work is grace. It says "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." It doesn't say "grow in the knowledge of scripture." The Way Ministry's loaded with that stuff at times, but no love. We've got grads of the class on Power for Abundant Living, I wish I'd never taught them. All they do is prance around showing how much knowledge of the scriptures they have and make everybody else that hasn't got that knowledge feel badly, if they can. Why my goodness, what did I ever teach them God's Word for? It breaks my heart. It's not the knowledge of the scripture you know, but the extent to which you know Him and walk in the love wherewith He loved. Nothing wrong with knowledge of the scripture, but it looks to me you haven't got enough knowledge if you don't apply it, and you ought to read a few verses that tell you how to put it on, how to love with the love wherewith He loved, how to forgive with the forgiveness for which He forgives, how to keep your tongue under control so you don't go blabbing everything all the time. It's an unruly evil, remember? The tongue. No man can tame it, so quit trying to tame it, let God tame it. He's the only one that can do it, otherwise you're always gonna have the running off of the tongue. Grow in grace. That growing in grace is to grow in the love-life of Christ, like you can grow in the new birth, you can't get more spiritually. Then in the growing of it is in the renewed mind and in the walk. Grow in grace. Love at work in your life by God through Christ who saved us when we were totally dead in trespasses and sins, without God and without hope, people. He loved us enough that He saved us. Can you and I really, if we know what that means, do less than endeavor to build the grace of God in our minds and the love wherewith He loved, to share that love. So, it's not a knowledge of the scriptures, but what? Do I love? How do I love with that knowledge? Does anyone have a “Back to Topic” emoticon? ;)

No. I haven't mastered every lick of it. I don't know anyone who has. I know a bunch who are in the process. This is a common sense thing, not philosophical. If you set the definition of "mastery" too high, then of course, no one could master anything and it would be a useless word. Mastery is always a relative thing. Compared to my knowledge of 10 years ago, I am well on my way to practical mastering the material in the USUAL sense of the word. My car mechanic has relatively mastered his craft and can do consistently great work with it. Could there be a college professor somewhere who has mastered internal combustion theory and practice better? Sure. Does this preclude me from saying my car mechanic is a master? No. If you had looked at my "Masters of the Word" thread (the largest thread in GreaseSpot history, but unfortunately pruned off the board), OR if you had read (with remembrance) the 1979 Way Magazine article "Masters of the Word" then you would know that when Dr taught it he meant that mastering the Word really means the Word becomes the master of our minds is crucial in the process. Has the Word become the master of my mind? Yes, when I walk in that mind of Christ, nourished by the collaterals God provided specially for His kids (Marsha, was that an infomercial that just flew past us? I don't know; it was so fast, just like you John. Oh, Marsha, you're something else! Oh John! OH Marsha! OH JOHN!! MARSHA, MARSHA!! JOHN, JOHN, JOHN. MARSH...) in these last days.

pond, Maybe we should discuss this elsewhere? I was trying to stay on topic. Ordinarily I'd engage you here and now, insert one of my famous infomercials, and move on to the CFF topic. But what I said above is about all I have on the topic. ................ that said.... I am immensely enjoying and benefiting from the process of just attempting to master it, let alone any areas where actual mastery occurs. It helps me understand many things about life... and things... like why all the clergy went so crazy.... and other things... like... uh... (((((( <_< psssst! Hey Mike! This is your evil conscience. This is perfect! You're back to the CFF topic with that crazy clergy phrase, all you have to do is work that phrase so it's time for an infomercial, right? It'll be easy! )))))) uh... so I'm happy with my studies, and .... and happy with a bunch of other grads who similarly inclined... uh... ((((((( No, NO! Mike, remember the topic. You said you depleted it, so going the crazy clergy route will not be honest and it won't help the cause. Just trust God that the little you said here will be absorbed by those who are ready for it, and then move on to already derailed threads, like "A note on forgiving" to do your thing. It'll be better for everyone that way. ))))))) uh... so I'm happy just studying it the best I can and letting God do the rest. (((((((Whshoooo! That was a close one.)))))))