Mike

T-Bone, Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? :)

...and a related thought is.... Has anyone closed their minds on forgiving? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Not many. But then again, not many subjects are so important as to require it. Plus, our culture seems to forbid it. Searching was very chic in the 60's, but even then, finding the end of a road was still anathema.

I had written "My mind is closed tight as a bank vault on this." The key word is "this." I can converse as to why I have closed my mind on this one issue, and I can discuss other issues where I have not made such a final decision. Haven't you arrived at the end of your life's search on any issues yet? Anyway, we have strayed too far from the topic here. Maybe you and I can discuss this in a Doctrinal thread or in PMs. There is still a bunch of stuff on I Corinthians 3 and forgiveness I'd like to finish up here.

OUCH! That hurt! ...but I forgive you. *** I see the weather is clearing up. A sparkling new penny for the poster who can steer this thread back to topic: A note on forgiveness... :)

What we study are the writings (book and magazine form) Dr put his name on starting around 1971, when most of the books originated. We accept Dr's claims that these materials are from God, and aside from a few printer typos and proofreader errors, these publications are inerrant. We're not satisfied with a sense knowledge understanding of these materials, although that was at one time the only proper and available understanding. The factual meanings are no longer what we seek, but to see the truths is paramount. In addition to the Way Magazine articles this is what we were given and told to master: PFAL – Power For Abundant Living RHST – Receiving the Holy Spirit Today CSBP – Christians Should Be Prosperous ADAN – Are the Dead Alive Now? BTMS – The Bible Tells Me So (Vol. 1) TNDC – The New, Dynamic Church (Vol. 2) WWAY – The Word’s Way (Vol. 3) GMWD – God’s Magnified Word (Vol. 4) OMSW – Order My Steps In Thy Word (Vol. 5) JCNG – Jesus Christ Is NOT God JCOP – Jesus Christ Our Passover JCPS – Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed *** I, myself, am past this hurdle. If you want to try your hand at finding errors for me you're not only too late, but I WILL find your methods in such searching wanting. I've seen almost nothing but arguments from secure ignorance posing as error finders in these matters. Spend a few months (then years) reading these materials and we can begin straightening out apparent contradictions, but if you can't adopt an attitude of meekness in reading the materials and only want to conjure up what you THINK are errors, then I turn a deaf ear. My mind is closed tight as a bank vault on this.

Exy, It's bad weather here. So I have the time. I always feel this way, though. *** pond, I'm all for straight talk. I resort to handstands, smoke, and mirrors when posters come at me with torches and pitchforks. It's happened oodles of times here, but I've developed a thick skin and watching the early Spider Man DVDs several times every night really helps me learn moves to keep three steps ahead of my attackers. I've been told it's more like a Road Runner cartoon than a cat and mouse one. Speaking of straight talk, doesn't anyone want to finish I Cor 3?

I found those words of Jesus very intriguing, the first time I ever heard them. Did you? Did you look into them? Find anything?

I think a lot of Bullinger fans, and Kenyon fans, and Leonard fans, and Stiles fans, are all going to think maybe you're exagggggerating a little.

******** No, I was toying with Godel's Theorem and a little word play. The scripture part is serious. Are you familiar with that part of the Jesus with whom you have a relationship, as per our conversation of many posts ago on this thread?

waysider, I don't believe you have accurately identified the culprit of that event some several decades ago. There's no amount of emotion you can try to bring to the board that is going to force me to change. That's an LCM method of the lowest order. I offered help for your pain, and you have a right to refuse it, but you can't bully me into backing off on what I have dedicated my life to. You'll wear out your emotions trying. Now, I'm going to end this conversation with you if you don't get a grip and drop this latest strategy to argue points. Let's see what's inside the books, not the details of all that went wrong. There's PLENTY of that on this board. I like to discuss what went right IN MY OPINION. If you got a problem with that, then put me on "ignore."

T-Bone, Here's one of the Jesus items I wanted to get back with you on: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." but you cannot bear to hear them now. (John 16:12)

Thank you for sharing.

I said earlier: I think the harm came from non-PFAL sources, or incomplete PFAL sources, or distorted PFAL sources, or verbal.... This means I think your friend, just like all of us, got certain critical things wrong in our thinking, and this drift got worse and worse with time. That said, YES, I feel badly that we all got hit hard. I think you'll get a lot of peace when you see that your blame is misplaced. When the proper culprit is identified, better remedial action can be taken than when blame is aimed emotionally. I know it hurts. I hurt too. I blew it on my understanding of the law of believing and I hurt for it to this day. But I try to be accurate in my blame. I can't blame you for not seeing this. It's only possible to see it by opening the books up FRESH and A LOT. If you can't bring yourself to do that you can't (for now) see the fine distinctions between culprits in hurt versus generators of the good part of the "good old days."

I think that's not quite an English text that's God-breathed, but the Greek one AT BEST. Your suggestion is an English text version of a translation of modern (1550 and up) scholarly compilation of fragmentary copies of copies of God-breathed documents from Paul's time, in Greek at best. (Talking about the NT part) You don't mean to assert that your suggestion is what I was asking for, DO you? If you do, they we'd have to invent a new way of describing documents that are God-breathed and in English, that is, the English part is God-breathed. THAT'S what I was asking for... it's like asking for a COMPLETELY AUTHORITATIVE translation, the last word on translations.

Yes, but it generally wasn't well studied in the early years, and in the later years many drifted even more from the written part. I'm STILL re-learning what the written record is on that subject, and purging the TVTs and private theories (broken cisterns) that I myself drifted into. Remember, we were taught that we need to see ALL the passages on a particular subject before we have the whole story. This key works for PFAL passages as well as KJV passages. It works for Computer Manuals and Steven King as well. There are hundreds of PFAL passages to deal with on the law of believing; many are satisfied with taking pot shots at a small number of them. It takes time to do it right, but it's fun work, and enlightening too.

jen-o, Ok, I’ll turn off the sarcasm and work with you. I’ll agree with you that IF the written part of PFAL is not God-breathed, then my thesis is idolatry, or something just as bad. Now that I said that, can you agree with me that IF written PFAL is God-breathed then I'm not idolatrous at all? I see what I am doing as helping grads get the good stuff from the good old days. It’s a right and proper presentation of something new that God has been trying to make available to grads for over 20 years now. *** From what you said above, I can tell you have not been accurately tracking with what I say. Can you at least track with the above paragraphs? I can help you track a little better by adjusting one idea you expressed as mine. Above you wrote: “you have added the collaterals (a set of books) and seem to be claiming that they are part of God's ‘revelation to mankind’...” It’s the ‘revelation to mankind’ part I disagree with. I see the PFAL collaterals as God-breathed English documents addressed to Dr’s grads of PFAL, a relatively small group of people. The reason I see this is because I dared to open them a lot, again. *** Here’s a good theological mental exercise you might try to get up to speed with me. Can you give me the Library of Congress number of a single English text God-breathed book or document? Just one will do.

well I think the harm came from non-PFAL sources, or incomplete PFAL sources, or distorted PFAL sources, or verbal.... but the printed part was not that way at all...

Oh BOY! Do I win anything?

That number is down from 74.

I think your G.D.D. (Glory Direction Detector) needs recalibrating. That might be expensive, what with gas prices rising and all, but I can help you for free here. I think you need to hear the statement the way I intended it. Maybe this will help free you of worry about idolatry in me. I hate to see you loose sleep thinking that I was digging my spiritual grave. By the phrase “when he walked” I mean when he was WALKING in fellowship with God Who had promised to teach him His Word like it had not been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. By “earth” I mean the 5-senses realm (not the planet Earth) which was run by the god of this world, and it shook because the adversary’s grip was terminating due to the greatness of the revelation God was so graciously providing FOR US. So in essence, I was saying EXACTLY as you wrote thusly: “the earth trembles when God speaks, NOT a man...” with the added nuance that it’s now time for the adversary’s grip to end so the trembling is BIGGER. I like to say things (once in a while) in ways that overly religious people CAN misinterpret them, because they WANT TO so much. Just being accommodating. I do the same thing (once in a while) with my “Jesus” quota, deliberately lowering it to see who takes the bait and reveal their religious disposition. I mentioned this earlier on this thread in Post #899. *** So, what’s this baloney about “you would NOT need to mention ANY man...” ? Where did you get THAT from? What do you say when you want to read out of the “Gospel According To Luke” or the “Epistle of Paul to the Romans.” and have everyone else turn to the same chapter? The reason I speak of vpw this way is because people like you need available to you a true sight through the camouflage the adversary has thrown over the treasure God gave us in the collaterals. God gives His revelation to men (and women) and mentioning the people whom GOD ALMIGHTY selects is fine in my book. Maybe you should ask your god to lighten up a little?

Are you forgetting the twenty-one OTHER times Dr said "Thus saith the Lord!" which are documented on the previously linked thread? And then there are still more in the wings. The 22 documented "Thus saith the Lord" statements can be found starting here deep inside a long Post #294 in purple fonts: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...9131&st=280 They are spread out in that thread in the next several hundred posts. Someday I'll start posting the remainder until I get all 90. He meant "Thus saith the Lord" all the time when he taught, and some times he said so outright. He would even say, at times, "Father just told me to shut up."

******* It had to be revelation or it was worthless. It was "Goodness Sake Himself" who told him, Exy. God can give revelation to us ALL, and He wants to! Let Him.

That's been done up already more than you can imagine here. If you did a word search here on it you'd have enough material for a PhD thesis. Here's the end of that road, though, a simple quote that Oldiesman found. I shall paste it in for us to see where any discussion (I'm excluding pot shots here) on plagiarism must end up at if it is to be honest: ******* (With my re-formatting and truncation in re-presenting the following quotes) First dmiller wrote: Docvic (plain and simple) took from other's works, and passed it off as his own. Then oldiesman wrote: dmiller, sorry but I am going to have to disagree in part with you, and I base my belief on the following: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit -- that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then I worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped.” Victor Paul Wierwille, 1972 The Way Living In Love Elena Whiteside page 209 The previous statement by VP disproves that he “passed it off as his own.” In 1972 he said it wasn't original; ... if you don't believe he said that, there it is, right before your eyes. He deserves credit for not passing it off as his own, but rather saying “lots of the stuff I teach is not original.” If he was trying to hide something, and pass off all of this as his own, he would not have made the previous statement, nor have other authors' books, from whence he learned, selling in the Way Bookstore for all to read. ******* Now, what's all this have to do with forgiveness? The evidence is (and not merely with this one subject of plagiarism) heavy that most of the complaints here are emotional and the pinning of blame is far from exact. The blame that prevents most forgiveness is hysteria driven largely by misinformation mixed with a few sad facts. When the correct information is presented, some of the complaining ones have an opportunity to get a grip and work with the facts instead of their bruised egos. Sure things went wrong, but let's get it accurate where they ACTUALLY went wrong and forget about the blame issue. Let's quit moaning and get things fixed, I say. The best way to do that is to see WHAT WENT RIGHT in twi, and why we stayed in there tolerating so much baloney for so long. There were good reasons to tolerate much, because we had a treasure in God's Word, we just forgot where it was: in the collaterals.

I consulted with two of Dr's editors on PFAL page 83 a dozen times in the past ten years. One of those editors was head editor of the Way Magazine for almost ten years. The other editor participated in the editing of the PFAL book with Karen. He remembered that line on page 83 the instant I quoted it to him, saying without hesitation to me "I remember THAT line." Both editors agreed with my assessment that it is a MOST strong "Thus saith the lord!" statement, tucked away with unusual aplomb, irony, and humor. Maybe YOU are doing to that line what you think I am doing to it? Has that ever occurred to you?