Mike

One of the big reasons I started thinking VERY differently about the Return and the PFAL books was "Living Victoriously in Hope." In that teaching is ANOTHER thing that slipped by us all unnoticed, yet deposited in the recorded for future access. I've been collecting these kinds of items for 19 years now. Does anyone remember what he taught on Romans 4:18 in LV 1982 how Abraham "turned hope into believing" and it's application to today? It's like an Indiana Jones passage where he pulls out this astounding gem, and then buries it like a hidden treasure. No one noticed, yet it's right on the tape. Chris Geer's transcript mangles it a little. I can post the accurate transcript. Is it possible for me to post the .mp3 of that few minutes? This LV passage basically says that the Return of Christ had moved from the future hope category to the presently available believing category. He said this in front of many hundreds of people, many thousands more heard the tape, and yet I’ve not yet run into one grad who remembers it. I did not hear it until 1999, but I was looking for things like this by that time. The way that vpw said this gem, and then tucked it away and distracted everyone’s attention was like a master magician. You have to hear it to see what I’m talking about. He really pulls a fast one here. Some of it was from how fast he said certain things, and certain things he pointed to. I’ve analyzed it from many angles; heard it many times. I’d love to post the mp3. If anyone has the tapes, it should be easy to find.

Now all of a sudden they are his writings? What happened to the plagiarism? I see no shame, just good stuff in the book's contents, the actual words. I look at the source of those words and I see right through vpw, right through his teachers, and ultimately to God. I only see vpw mostly 'putting it all together and getting it distributed throughout the world, and now the Internet.

Please remember that I am posting that stuff to explain the comments that bothered several people here back 10 years ago, as well as all the way up to now. Is it beginning to become clear what I meant and how I could say such a shocking thing?

I’d like to get back to the connection between vpw’s books and the Return of Christ. IF it’s the case that God pulled a fast one and injected His freshly written Word into the world by coordinating the activities of many researchers, writers, and teachers for many decades (like from Bullinger’s teachers through to vpw), then sooner or later I have to ask WHY NOW? I know this is a colossally big “IF” and emotionally difficult for some to even consider, but I have taken it up and am delighted by what I find afterwards. Can anyone see how great a blessing it is for us to be given a fresh set of English revelations, regardless of the delivery man who dropped it off at our door? So, taking up this huge “IF” I must eventually ask WHY NOW? What is God up to? I believe it’s because we're already in the early beginnings of the Return of Christ. THAT is the why and when for the PFAL books. The Return starts with the written Word, then it goes to the Word made flesh. Most grads can not well receive this because the standard model of the Return has no early stages at all; just a sudden rush upwards. But this suddenness I question. Two thousand years ago almost everyone had the details of his First Coming quite wrong, and as a result many did not even recognize him. Should we take the hint and suspect some possible errors in our own traditional mind images of the Return? Will we try to force him to mold into our expectations, or should it be the reverse? We were given an extra warning about the surprise nature of his Second Coming: like a thief in the night. I believe we already are into the beginning of the Return, and that it is already underway, just not at all according to our expectations. The reason for the PFAL books is to prepare us for these surprises, and get us ready to see Christ Jesus at some point in the parusia. The scriptures are clear that there are no ways to predict the timing of the Return, and the PFAL writings concur. They also mention a sudden flash, an atom in time, where things change. But what is the time sequence? When exactly does the sudden flash occur, and what events happen that are NOT sudden, but take time? I see the books as containing the pure mind of Christ. As we build the contents of the books within we grow from having the hope of glory, to the glory itself. At his first coming he was mostly not recognized. With the contents of these books infused into our activities and minds, recognizing him in the early stages of the Return is guaranteed. So, there’s suddenly a lot more on the table to hash through.

I'd very much like to hear more of what you remember here. It's likely on tape somewhere. I don't see any contradiction, though, between the Thess 1:1 tape and your report. The tape above mentions the process BEFORE it got written, not during. The process of vpw/karen/j.fred hearing the teaching taught and then discussing it with him was the process BEFORE it got published. Yes, this discussion was largely on paper. I see the editing/discussion as prior to committing it ti writing.

Help! I'm smothering in metaphors. What most moved me with this tape is the idea that the revelation of the scriptures was NOT done in a manner that some people describe as "Divine Dictation." The revelation first comes, then gets taught and discussed and clarified as to how it can be communicated best, and finally it's put into final written form. The process vpw describes on that tape is identical to the process in which he was engaged, along with his editor assistants! Even in the Old Testament, the men to whom God committed His revelations to would often have documented assistants, and sometimes they even had a dose of the same spirit upon them. After Pentecost all the assistants (and editors) could have spirit within.

If we were Veterinarians, then they could be even closer to roughly the same thing. Do you like animals?

I'm aware of these items, but it was roughly the same process. It's the idea I was relaying, not the legality.

That's alright, Raf. No offense taken. I can pigeon-hole it off to the side.

He and I exchanged letters back and forth a few times, met 2 times in his office, and 1 time in tape duplicating where I worked. We talked at lunch a tiny bit a few times and by phone after I left HQ once or twice. All from from 1972 to 1988. Not name dropping; just want to show you how serious I was about the editing process. I was on fire about it. *** I found the spot in Thess tape #1, about 10 minutes and 20 seconds into it. So far, what I heard is the word "taught" in the place where my faulty memory thought was the word "discuss" but that word may come up later. I'm not done hearing it. Plus there's another spot for II Thess 1:1 deep into the set of tapes.

Twinky, Like anyone I go in phases as to how much I read. I think about it all the time and review things in my head a lot, too. In the days when I was studying the Canon and filling that 3 inch thick folder it was mostly the KJV that I was into. But also consider this: every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something. There are times when reading PFAL that I suddenly want to go to may KJV for more context. That happens. A caveat for you: when reading your KJV is that the actual scriptures you’re searching? Or is that a scholarly, man-made attempt to translate another scholarly attempt to reconstruct texts that were pretty well scrambled for 3 or 4 centuries before being systematically preserved? Remember that the adversary was intimately involved in those centuries of scrambling, and then he joins (being in charge of all worldly kingdoms) the scholars as the try to unscramble it all. Beware that your scripture searching isn’t really just searching of man-made counterfeits of the scriptures. ************* TLC, Are you new here? I don’t remember your username from 10 years ago. What I said above to Twinky applies to our discussion also. I have a slight surprise for you about the Canon. The hunch Walter and I had and were working toward was that the SAME people God entrusted with the revelations were the people who “edited” it and decided which books to put where. We could see from the scriptures that the right attitudes were in place for this to happen. What the apostles and their assistants put together in their lifetimes was not recognized for a few more centuries. The traditional Canon studies always focus on this later perioe of time, and wrongly assume that it was totally un-together before hand. I personally think Timothy had the first copy, but he was totally ignored by history. Makes sense. My Canon research was oddly, mostly in my KJV. For a decade, every time I opened it I saw another clue to the First Century Canon. For example, all of Paul’s epistles were collected together by the time II Peter was written, where they are mentioned as a set. Another: at the end of Paul’s life he threw a Scripture Party with Timothy, Mark, and Luke. I literally found hundreds of such clues as to how God did it, some even in the Old Testament. *** As to those Thessalonians tapes, I’m remembering better what’s in them. If you can’t find them let me know; I’ll get them to you somehow. What I’m remembering is that vpw said that USUALLY, but not always it’s done with discussion before being put into written form. He does not use the word “editor.” He uses the word “discuss.” From my discussions with several of vpw’s editors, that’s pretty much how they did it, only on paper. Karen and J.Fred would type up a chapter from the film’s transcript, submit it to vpw, receive back his red-line notes, and then maybe have another round, until (like with Uncle Harry) he says something to indicate he’s not budging. I laughed when you wrote this: “Never did I hear what you now claim are there. Something like that just doesn't fit with anything I've ever thought, and it would undoubtedly have jumped out at me and slapped me in the face had anything like that been said.” That pretty much sums up my reaction when I first heard these passages many years ago. But I was attuned to these kinds of things. I had once thought I would be a technical writer of editor. I was on fire for words and the writing and publishing process. I saw the coincidences in my life that were lining up for this kind of attention, and I collected many items like this. They all still kinda shock me. *** Just in case this one comes up again: I know vpw's later books were written by committee. I also know that in the same academic institutions where plagiarism is fought so diligently (and cheered on here in doing so) it’s considered TOTALLY HONORABLE for a professors’ grad students to write 90% of a book which bears only the name of the professor as authior, and only MAYBE a tiny acknowledgement to the assistants. We can talk about how this is honorable later. It is.

Hi Raf. It's MikeLite this time. That's my goal. Going slow and trying to be more friendly. *** TLC, is there any way I can post clips of those Thess tapes here? I have them and can clip them down. They should be easy for anyone to find, because they right at the beginnings of sections, being verse 1:1 ....BTW, there's more detail in the first one, second one almost word for word same, but abbreviated. *** TLC, You asked about vpw’s editors, and I forgot about one more. It’s Uncle Harry. When I lived at HQ he took me under his wing and helped me with stuff, like getting a car. He’d take me to auctions and we’d talk about ministry business. One day we were talking about BOT meetings and I asked him about vpw’s revelations point blank. He laughed, and said in BOT meetings, where a lot of difficult decisions filter up to, they usually fought like cats and dogs! Then got serious and said, almost word for word quoting <<…but when Vic said ‘thus saith the Lord’ then I’d shut up.>> I had to sneak back in to add that.

Yikes! How can I EVER answer all this fan mail? Nibbling through VERY slowly is my only option today, so I’m doing a semi-random sample, with a view towards brevity. ************* TLC, This set of comments from your will fill my available timeslot. You wrote: “Good grief. Why would you think that ANY of his writings were "God-breathed" when he himself didn't think (much less believe) that?” One of my main themes is that we forgot many items and/or did not absorb many items. This line of yours demonstrates this well. I have found approximately 90 places where Dr told us on tape or in writing that he was given this job. About 7 or 8 or 9 years ago I wrote up exact quotes for 22 of them. I think they are still here. If not I can pretty easily find them and re-post them. I used the phrase “thus saith the lord” to describe them often. *** You wrote: “Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation. Evidently you've not seen (or heard about) a preliminary draft for one of his books (or pamphlets.) Are you aware they were others that proofed and "edited" his work? Think Karen Mart1n (or anyone else) would dare to change even one word if it were ‘God-breathed?’” Also posted here years ago is approximately the following: I rented a room for 2 years from J.Fred W. in New Knoxville. He and Karen edited the PFAL book. I discussed this process with him MANY TIMES for those two years. He was my best friend. He passed away several years ago. I kept in touch with J.Fred all these years. When I started posting here I was on the phone with him quite often, AGAIN discussing the editing process. Dr also taught in the Univ of Life for I Thess 1:1 and then again for II Thess 1:1 that Timothy and Silas discussed the epistles with Paul before they were put into written form. It was like they were his editors, also having the same spirit. Same for Dr’s editors: fine people! By coincidence, another best friend of mine is David C,. another one of Dr’s editors. Many similar discussions with him over the decades. I also lived across the street from Milford Bowen, another earlier editor of Dr’s. Do you see a pattern here? I was utterly fascinated by the editing process and how many were involved back in the 70s. However I did not make the leap that the PFAL collaterals were God-breathed. HONEST! I did not think that. I was much more mainstream then. Like many others, I thought the film class was SPOKEN by revelation or by inspiration, and that a lot of SNS tapes were spoken the same way. Not a Wierwille worshipper like some, I was of the opinion that Dr was a sinner and that NOT ALL of his spoken words were to be trusted. But I, like many others then, thought he often spoke by the spirit, especially when a microphone was on. The phrase a lot of us used then describing the film class was that it was “Almost straight prophesy!” Anyone remember? Several years ago I called up Karen W to discuses all these things. We also did some e-mailing. She was a bit shocked by my thesis, but we still were able to discuss it some. At that time Donnie got very sick and soon passed away, and I’ve not had a chance to get back to her. I’d like to. I also spent 11 years researching and corresponding with Walter in the 70s and early 80s on the topic of the “Who put together the New Testament scriptures and when?” otherwise known as the Canon of Scripture. Kinda like the NT “Editors” if you will? My old paper-file folder on this almost 3 inches thick. *** You wrote: “Furthermore, whatever fellowship you attended that taught you that you must find out everything you can by the 5-senses, and THEN seek and expect revelation... probably never received any (or they might have had a little better understanding of how it really works.)” This is another item that looks to have been forgotten. I am almost quoting from the Advanced Class on working the 5-senses first before getting revelation. It’s called Key #4 in the syllabus list titled “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit.” Dr spends a segment on this, and teaches how Jesus had to ask around with his 5-senses in order to re-locate the man-born-blind, whom he had healed. The 1965 SNS tape I mentioned earlier on this thread “Light Began to Dawn” also had many passages devoted to this principle of “What you can know by the 5-senses God expects you to know.” *** My time is up for now. Stay tuned! By Christmas I ought to be able to respond (in this much detail?) to everyone else.

Because he had sin in his life that complicated things. As time went by this piled up. So as he was completing and succeeding the job of getting the Word into written form, he was not doing so well in the last days of the ministry. He said and wrote several times and several ways "I wish I was the man I know to be." I wish he was too, but he wasn't. At least he completed the job offer he knew to be of getting the Word for us written in English. I'm thankful for that. I think at times he may have gotten good revelation on running the ministry, but not the times that you wanted it. and not at some of the places I'd have wished for some.

skyrider, I do answer some specifics, and will some more. There are some areas I'd like to not get bogged down in. I think if I was just rambling, no one would bother with me. But my posts often have ideas that are scarce here. Give them time and they may not seem as rambling. New ideas always seem that way.

Apologies again, in that I meant a plural "you" there, in the possible portraying them as simpletons. And you may be right about lurkers. I do think about them, in the back of my mind, and I know what they desire to get posted at times.. But I was thinking most of the many non-vocal grads out there who got blessed, and some of who still get blessed by PFAL books. They are not stupid dolts, getting blessed by garbage. The evil is not as simple as it's presented here. As for talking to HQ, some of that I do right here, knowing they probably still do some monitoring here. Also, I call them up every several years or so. One time I did have good talk with Harve Platig, but he was soon gone. I usually had the same results you experienced, but not as intense.

Hi chockfull, I'm getting better using the buttons here and I found this, thinking it might be one of your burning items. You wrote: “Some of the challenges in discernment is to see evil for what it is, rather than lessening the impact with words, excuses, enablement.” It’s also, perhaps more challenging to see good for what it is. From Romans 7 we see a battle between good and evil even within the apostle Paul. Sometimes evil will mask good, or cause it to be forgotten. *** You also wrote: “So are these the "foibles" that God just overlooked while giving VP non-stop revelation?” IMO that’s not at all how it could be. Here’s what I see: God can get a revelation through MUCH, MUCH better if the person is in fellowship. Some people can get in and out of fellowship MANY times in a day. I know; I’m one. No one, not Dr, not me, ever claimed he was getting non-stop revelation. We just had a big discussion here about PFAL page 83 and how Dr said that not all of his writings were God-breathed. Even when in fellowship we were taught (and Dr claims it worked this way for him too) that we must find out everything we can by the 5-senses, and THEN revelation can be sought and expected if needed to bless God’s people. Revelation is not supposed to primarily bless the recipient, but for whom the recipient is ministering to. If a person is out of fellowship, and not the mode of blessing others, then revelations shut off. Most of Dr’s revelations had to occur when he was in fellowship, something God has made very easy. If a person slips right back out of fellowship, that’s going to hurt the efficiency of future revelations getting through on time and accurately. I do not consider this an injustice that Dr would get such revelations. It was a job, and a hard one that he accepted in doing it. He seems to have paid somewhat for his sin toward the end of his life in that he saw no one was getting it. All this says to me is that God can work with you and me EVEN BETTER than he did if we cultivate deeper quality, sustained fellowship than he did. *** Lastly you wrote: “My thoughts are that is not how it works. Every man is known by their fruit…” I hear this a lot. I look at the fruits NOT in vpw’s life when considering him, like everyone else seems to want to do. I do not have even nearly enough access to his heart and circumstances to do that. I can do it for me, though. When I “know them by their fruits” it’s by looking at the fruit in MY life they helped me bring forth. I don’t have the whole story of the fruits in his life, but my life I know pretty well. VPW’s fruit in my life was good. I was not so close to him that I was affected by his failures. I’m thankful for that too. I refrained from worshiping him in the 1970s, sometimes thinking I was lacking the commitment that others had who were (clearly now) worshiping him. My recent, tempered respect for him arises from the fruit in my life that I grew due to his work along with many others.

Hello chockfull, Sorry about that. When there's a whirlwind of posting going on many can get lost. I will look for them. I also lost a huge chunk of posts from WordWolf that slipped by me. Maybe I should back and do a little more reading. Just for kicks, can you repost here the earliest one, or maybe your most burning one?

Why? I spent 5 years doing that between 2003 and 2008. You're asking me to take a lot of time and energy... for what? For you to learn from? No, for you to try and poke holes at, and initiate another round where I show how your hole poking is wrong, and then another round of same. Don't you remember that routine? I explained a long time ago that when I work apparent discrepancies in PFAL in a committee setting, it's going to be staffed with like-minded believers. Wouldn't you want to do the same? I want to brainstorm with people who want to move in the same direction as I do, not the opposite. Later, i can face the opposition, like I'm doing now. Have you ever presented yourself with a thesis to a totally antagonistic review committee, that's not at all attuned to the same items you were when writing the thesis? If so, tell me about it. But don't expect me to do it.....again. I'm trying to make this visit different, not identical to those years. I'm trying to connect better to you all on a better level than before. I've been pretty successful with that with a few individuals here over the years. All of us grads who saw the 1970s have fewer years to burn than we did before. Like you (I hope), I am interested in lowering bitterness levels. I think I have a more detailed, accurate, balanced, and peaceful picture of what happened to us in TWI to offer... one where sin can eventually be forgotten... very slowly for some... but eventually. I'm talking about the Return.

The same techniques we were taught to use with apparent discrepancies in the ancient manuscripts. And, yes, I mentioned this in that thread a few times before bowing out.

No, OldSkool, not trolling. There are a lot of grads out there who think SOMEWHAT like me and continue to be blessed with what the books teach them. They don't come here to try and communicate this, possibly because they are not equipped as I am to deal with the not-so-rose-colored glasses in use here. I've been blessed with a few skills, been at the right places and times, and have accumulated a large amount of the materials under discussion. In some ways I'm speaking up for them. Your words and attitudes would portray THEM as the simpletons and much more harshly than I just used that word. They are not in a good position to defend themselves. I think I've shown them how to fearlessly look at these difficulties with lucid and consistent argument. I also think it's good for you folks to occasionally face criticism and counter argument. We see how being insulated from that can be corrupting. I wish I could face off with TWI leaders in writing. Wouldn't that be fun?

waysider, I think the perception of "riddled with error" comes from not using the right techniques in approaching it. I approach it using different techniques and attitudes than you.

Actually it gets even more crazy when you consider the connection to the Return of Christ. I'm over due in finishing my story about the Return and the Orange book in hand. What is ludicrous to you is just as astounding to me. It testifies of the GREAT grace of God. Much greater than we're comfortable with now. And the connection to th3e Return just amps it up to Eleven from here. What I am showing is that I am lucid enough to handle almost all your objections, and show that this position I've taken, that God has blessed us with His freshly written Word again, is FAR more consistent than you can conclude upon first hearing.

Do you have any idea how wonderful it is if it's true?

Yes.