Mike

Well, I am not impressed...with your ability to deal with the points I just brought up. An ad hominem attack is all you could muster? Want to try again?

Yikes! How can I read, and then respond, to all that? Old as I am, that could run me out of gas! I’ll go through it slowly and more thoroughly during lulls in the holiday action. Meanwhile, from a quick browsing, I’m impressed at how many people here believe in polls! Yes I did take a poll. My belief in the thousands who where blessed more than hurt by PFAL comes from the INFORMAL polls I took involving only several hundreds of grads. I started around 1987 by calling all the grads I knew (even just a little) by phone. When unlimited long distance plans were invented a few years later my number of grads called per month jumped significantly. When the Internet bloomed I did it by e-mail to MANY more, as well as to grads I did not know. Then, coming to GreaseSpot in 2002, I did it mass production style. This was totally informal. For the first ten years I focused on discussing (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. I was perplexed at the collapse of the ministry, and was searching far and wide for answers. Starting in 1998 I added to those 3 items questions to see if they knew about Dr’s last, last, last teaching. The number of NO answers I got there were astonishing. I reported these statistics from my polling here several times. My informal impressions were that 90% of the people I knew were still very blessed by PFAL, and very surprised and disappointed by the new revelations (1986) of Big Trouble in RiverCity. In my polling some useful inferences could also be made. One such inference is from two of my CLOSEST friends. Both of them worked LONGTIME on HQ staff, and the revelations of sexual trouble at HQ was a NEW REVELATION to them too. I only worked at HQ for 2 years, but I kept in close touch with them. They told me that they never saw anything whatsoever. (Same as me) They told me they had heard of scant rumors over the years and still saw nothing. (Same as me) They were perplexed and confused about the scathing reports they started getting in 1986. (Same as me) They professed being still greatly blessed by PFAL and would trudge on through the difficulties. (Same as me) We figured (at that time) that there must be a lot of exaggeration in the reports because we had no capacity to understand that both great open good and great hidden evil could be in the same place at the same time. I increased my capacity to understand this from studying Romans 7, and David, and Solomon. The inference that I draw from this is that whatever went on at HQ was highly contained in space and time. It didn’t go on often and it didn’t involve a lot of people. That’s how it was kept secret. Kinda like the way it happens in all other organizations of human beings, as the “Me Too” movement is showing.

skyrider, Thanks for the Mrs. W data. I have a Xerox copy of her book, but haven’t looked at it yet. I do desire to be informed by as much data as possible; time permitting. What about that bullet point of yours on a 1984 confrontation of the BOT by VPW? Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL? If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.

Waysider, when you said "seems to be the only recording of the event" I'll bet a dollar it never occurred to you to search Advanced Class transcripts. There's also a SNS tape from 1965 (#214?) where VPW spends a half hour doing a verbal history of his ministry. To not include this tape means, again, that the search is far from complete. There's a good possibility I got my memory distorted as to WHO threw the late guy down the stairs, but what is clear to me is that VPW did say somewhere, sometime that he initially became interested in the teacher of a class from hearing of the staircase incident. My impression is the guy showed up late, insisted on being able to stay due to his paying for the class, and the teacher insisting stronger that he leave. It seems logical that this teacher is BGL. Also, keep in mind that "thrown down the stairs" is a common figure of speech that can have figurative meanings, and a spectrum of intensity, I initially pictured a full flight of stairs, but that figure of speech works for a porch with two or three steps as well.

Not "put things in writing," but "put things in book and magazine form." There were plenty of things that he put in writing that were not-God breathed. He even wrote that in PFAL page 83. The story of the Bible is one of God working with any sinner to the extent the sinner believes. Yes, he was a jerk at times. (How stinky is YOUR old man nature?) I've posted several stories here from one of his High School classmates with whom I worked with daily at HQ for 2 years. She told me how he'd get into fights and crash parties and was a show off. He was also such a religious terror, later on as a pastor, that some people in his congregation put their Pagan Christmas Trees on wheels to get them quickly hidden should the pastor be in the neighborhood. She ALSO told me that he mellowed significantly when he started speaking in tongues around 1952. Uncle Harry also had a hand in his relative taming. I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.

Yes, and I apologize fr that. I thought I had softened that line down, but my edit seems to have gotten lost. What do you think of the idea, though? Suppose I had been more diplomatic with my text. how would you have reacted to the idea it was conveying? I try to have fellowship with most all types of grads, even the ones with who I strongly disagree. I see intellectual inbreeding and insularity going on all the time with all humans dealing with religion and politics. I would like to see lots of people regularly crossing sharp boundaries for detailed civil discussion and new ideas. Do you? I regularly try to have friendly discussions with TWI members. After decades of turning me down, recent years it has changed for the better. I wonder how many ardent Trump supporters can enjoy beers with members of the far Left? I learn from both sides.

Hi johniam. Are you still cleaning windows? I am; and still loving it.

HOWDY! I miss you folks. How's it going?

Hi skyrider, I'm swamped with work right now, my business being seasonal sensitive. Going into a detailed and organized answer to your questions may be possible when the rainy weather hits next month. I do see recurring themes, though, in both your questions and in many other comments and threads here in recent months, and by other posters as well. However they seem to all be muted discussions, lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings. Maybe I can spice up the conversations a little with some oft overlooked items. One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW. BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never! BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift. How many other errors and wrong slants did his class have? And where did BG get his material from? And what is this great obsession with originality? Doesn’t anyone have any deep thoughts on that? Has anyone EVER entertained the thought (and collected data) that most of what we mean by “originality” is actually multiple-hidden sources? And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here. As for Mrs Wierwille, who ever said her words were canonical? And who ever said VPW’s words were canonical? Not me. I say he was often wrong. It’s only what he put in book and magazine form that I see as special. I never held that all his memories would be accurate. Those are some unorganized responses, lacking the full detail I’d like to hammer on.

Skyrider, One of your bullet points may need a date change. HQ money funneling began in earnest in 1972. I'd like to know more about your 1984 point on a public confrontation. I know nothing of that.

I would like to protest some of the revisionist history I see here. This is a portion of a larger piece I posted here 10 years ago. It was removed from the board during the tight bandwidth days. A PFAL’77 Story This essay is called a PFAL’77 Story, and it relates directly to the very last public teaching of Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille, entitled “The Joy of Serving.” In studying this last teaching of Dr’s we see that the word “master” comes up quite a bit. By looking at his previous usage of this word, how Dr used it in his vocabulary, we can really see some electrifying truths. The big key here is the word “master” and we will eventually see it much deeper than we ever dreamed. Please let me tell you my story about PFAL’77. From 1976 to 1978 I worked at HQ in New Knoxville. In the weeks just prior to PFAL’77 an amazing event took place. All the staff regularly got together for lunch every weekday in those days. There was one particular BRC lunch, just one week before that class started, where Dr’s comments were so significant that I feel a need to type them out. I’ve related what I heard at this meeting to a number of people, but I’ve only run into one person so far who was actually in attendance, and that’s Thomas Benner. A few months ago I was talking with him on the phone, and when the subject of those lunchroom comments of Dr’s came up, he immediately launched into his remembrances of Dr’s words. Thomas’ recollections were almost exactly the same as mine, as well as his appreciation for the significance of them. This was very encouraging to me that my memory of the event was pretty accurate. Thomas has been pretty busy lately, but someday I should call him to help me beef up this story with more detail. Reconstructing past events from memory is no where near as accurate as printed materials or tapes. It’s much more sure to consult the record and refresh memory for important things. I have strongly endeavored to not rely on memory as many have erroneously done, but the details of some unrecorded events might be made more solid by some round about ways. For one, an individual’s memory may be checked by multiple witness testimony, as I reported here already for this lunchroom event. Plus if there are some traces of the event on record, that can be some further confirmation. Later I will show that this is the case for the lunchroom incident. So I proceed, albeit on the shaky ground of mere human memory. The grand purpose of this story is not to establish doctrine, but to illuminate some of the background for a teaching of Dr’s that I will be talking about soon. This teaching has a rich history, so I’ll confine myself here in this Part 1 to the topic of the teaching’s origins. In Part 2 we can get into the teaching itself. In all there are four parts to this very important topic. In early 1977, months before the lunchroom incident, the staff at HQ began to work on various projects to prepare for the PFAL’77 class coming up that summer. Different departments had different items to deal with at differing times. As the class date approached almost all departments had so many extra duties that everyone was expected to work an hour overtime each day, and at no extra pay, of course. Some people were working many overtime hours. We were all happy to participate. It was fun to think we were taking part in the production of a “superior” version of the PFAL class. I had been on staff for about a year by then, and PFAL’77 seemed to me to be somewhat like the Rock of Ages both in preparation details and in importance. It was a very big deal to everyone. I especially was looking forward to seeing exactly what Dr might add or change to the new class. In those days I was concerned about what I thought were some non-fatal errors in the film class, and I wanted to see them corrected in this even better video class. The appearance of Dr in the 1967 film class, juxtaposed with the disco styles of the day, was becoming embarrassingly obsolete to some of us. In addition to the often discussed tie-width and hair-wetness fashion factors that seemed to necessitate a redoing of the PFAL film, the newly available medium of video tape was far superior to 16 mm film in quality. We also figured that new Biblical research to upgrade the class would be a significant step ahead, because ten years of additional learning had taken place since the ‘67 filming. It was an exciting time to work on staff, as PFAL ‘77 got closer. Several weeks before the class our daily overtime grew at times to two and three hours per day at times. I heard some people were putting in near 80 hour weeks, depending on their responsibilities. At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for teaching the new class he was going to “take” the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the ‘67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire thing. Every day he’d show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did one session or two, other days he did only a part. When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, “the hope of glory” and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up some calligraphy on a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official “PFAL Grad” like us. Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL’77. I say “all” in the sense that even though not all was totally perfect, we never voiced it, and it WAS pretty darn good how we all got along, especially compared to ten years later. These were still the “good old days” in many ways. Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum look on his face. I’ll do my best here to paraphrase what he said, but I have no direct quotes. I’ll use double-double quotes ““thusly”” to indicate this. For a few of Dr’s statements I can distinctly remember his exact phraseology. For some statements I can only remember the gist or the punch his words carried. But his overall mood and message at that pre-PFAL’77 lunchroom talk made such an impression that even today it is still quite memorable. The mood Dr conveyed in facial expressions, vocal inflection, body language, and exact spoken words was a huge downer. I had never before seen Dr look or speak so negative. Later that year I saw Dr pretty down one day after Uncle Harry went into the hospital for the second time, just days before his death. That was the only other time I ever saw Dr exhibit such negativity of heart. Oh sure, I saw him blow his stack plenty of times, but I mean the discouraged or hurting kind of negativity. This lunchroom announcement was drastically different from the previous days of the fun PFAL review announcements we heard from Dr. Dr said something like: ““I have something to say that probably will not please some people, but that they can just renew their minds to it, and learn to live with it.”“ I think he even said, or indicated that God had just told him something, and he was not too happy about it. Then he said something like: ““Sorry, but we’re going to have to cancel the PFAL’77 class!”“ Yikes! Everyone froze in the lunchroom. Did he really say that? This was one of the many questions many of us were thinking. How could this be? How could such a great undertaking be scuttled? Was Dr just testing us? Or did he really mean it? Was this was this something like the way Dr canceled the very first Way Corps, the zero-th Corps? Is Dr punishing us for something we did to fail him in preparation for this class? How could such an investment in people’s abundant sharing be thrown away? All these thoughts went through my mind, and I think many others too, in a few very long seconds. So, with that opening statement, Dr. Wierwille REALLY got our attention. He then went on to explain. He said he was in something like session 9 or 10 and that it just hit him like a ton of bricks, that he could never teach that class again! One near quote I remember is: ““That thing moves like greased lightning and I could never keep up with that pace again,”“ he said looking down and shaking his head from side to side saying silently “No, no, no” He also went on to say that God had taught him some very special things as he was teaching that film class, and that there was no way anyone could replace it or duplicate it. The old film class would just have to do the job. He said some things about the ‘67 film class filming as being done by revelation from God, and that there just was no revelation in 1977 from God to try and do it again. Dr left the distinct impression that the whole idea for doing PFAL’77 was of man, and not of God, whereas the ‘67 class was of God. Dr basically told us that some people had talked him into doing up a replacement for the film class and that it was not God’s idea at all. This was a bit of a shocker to me. I had assumed that it was being done by revelation, and here was Dr saying no, it wasn’t. I eventually came to know and understand years later that prior to 1982, the year Dr stepped down as president, some of Dr’s top men would at times talk him into things he really didn’t want to do. At this BRC lunch I specifically heard him complain of this. Dr’s top men had talked him into committing the resources of the ministry for PFAL ‘77 being a video replacement for the ‘67 film class. You could hear a pin drop in that room as Dr related all these things. Then he paused (maybe getting the next revelation) and said: ““We can still go forth with the Muncie plans and do PFAL’77 as a supplement for grads, but there will never be a replacement for the original film class.”“ With these words there was an audible sigh of relief from just about everybody in the lunchroom. I think most of us were keyed in on the first half of that sentence, that the Muncie plans would still continue. But we only faintly heard the last half about PFAL’77 being only a grad supplement, and the non-repeatability of the “official” class. (((An interesting side note: the video tapes they made of PFAL’77 seem to have rarely or even never surfaced. Just a few years ago my friend Mark Gluckin told me that the only video tapes he still wanted for his collection were those PFAL’77 videos. After 1988 I went headlong into intense bootleg tape activity for a full ten years, duplicating every tape I could find, but for me too the PFAL’77 tapes seemed to have disappeared! Dr gave Mark all sorts of access to tapes, more than anyone else, yet he didn’t have these. And I am unaware of any ministry use of them.))) So, Dr changed the course of the ship, right there in that lunchroom meeting. He also announced this change in a very dramatic and memorable way. In so doing he highlighted some key remarks of his about that original film class that are useful to our learning today. Specifically, CLONE CLASSES CAN’T CUT IT! Gosh I wish every splinter group leader and the big stump leaders could hear this! It’s only by mastering what God taught Dr and Dr taught us in writing that we will REALLY be able to serve God’s Word to others. This is the thrust of Dr’s very last teaching, “The Joy of Serving.” All attempts I’ve seen or heard of in splinter and stump groups running clone classes have had relatively minor results. Minor compared to the “good old days.” I could be wrong about this world-wide, but in my sphere of awareness, there has not been a single grad of any clone classes to rise up to the level of a WOW or a Corps candidate or a committed, serving clergy. All the big leaders are old PFAL grads, and the clone grads seem to be not inspired to drop everything and move the Word like Dr inspired HIS grads. If you know of one such hot clone grad, check on him or her in a couple years, and see how they are still cooking. Back to my story: A few days later, after the lunchroom announcement, at the next Sunday night service, Dr repeated a few of those same remarks he had made in the BRC lunchroom. For one, he says on tape that re-teaching PFAL is impossible. Those remarks appear in a couple of places on the SNS tape from that evening mixed in with the announcements and in the teaching. It was a GREAT teaching! It is SNS tape #865 from June 12, 1977. Two years after the lunchroom incident that same SNS teaching was presented in its final written form in the May/June 1979 Way Magazine. It is this magazine article, and it’s connections to those lunchroom comments by Dr, and it’s connections to Dr’s final instructions to master PFAL that I want to bring to your attention. Next, we’ll see the written magazine form of that teaching. I started this story mentioning the word “master” and how it occurs often in Dr’s very last teaching. The title of the magazine article and the SNS tape is “Masters of the Word.” With this teaching we have a tremendous handle on exactly what Dr meant when he used the word “master” in his final instructions to us that he spoke in his last teaching “The Joy of Serving.” . . .

Grace Valerie Claire I’d say you made a decision based on incomplete knowledge. Please allow me to fill you in a little. One of the main reasons I posted that is to show how inept we grads were when the ministry was growing during the 1970s and mid 1980s. That continued on through the collapsing years as this teaching was forgotten and lost. The main theme here at GreaseSpot is how grads were innocently harmed by the ministry. I say we were inept and did not learn much in depth from the class. We let lots of things slip through our fingers. Dr’s very last teaching is one glaring example of this.

It’s very understandable that when faced with new and astounding ideas that the mind balks and employs numerous methods for dealing with extreme anomaly. I understand this. I went through it when first encountering these ideas. Just to help you though, let me reiterate one of the simple things I am doing. It’s documenting items in the tape record and print record that we either did not absorb back then 30 and 40 years ago, or that we totally forgot. I’m also pointing out how these ideas hidden fit together, and in a way most beneficial to us. Let’s locate and examine our mind pictures of what the Return of Christ is really all about. Some may need modification.

Ok, take a breather. I’ll do a short, simple subject that doesn’t require you coming over to my side of the big ‘IF.” This subject will be in the category of something that slipped by us unawares. This one looks like it was deliberately hidden. In WWAY the Chapter titled “The Third Heaven and Earth” we all remember how Paul was “caught up” to the third heaven in II Cor. 13. In that book on page 88 (in the original Edition) we were taught that “caught up” should be “caught away.” Vpw there writes: “Whenever we speak or think of the words “caught up,” we think of them in terms of height. However, that is not the meaning of the word used in the text; “caught up” would be more clearly translated as ‘caught away.’” So far everything is simple, up front, and out in the open. Harpazo figuratively means “taught by revelation.” But then watch. He writes: “I will give all the usages of this word harpazo in the New Testament, so that each student may study the is translated as follows: “catcheth,” John 10:12; “catcheth away,” Matthew 13:19; Acts 8:39; “catch up,” II Corinthians 12:2,4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 12:5; “pluck,” John 10:28,29; “pull,” Jude 23; and “take by force,” Matthew 11:12; John 6:15; Acts 23:10. These could all be translated “catch” or “catch away.” In II Corinthians 12:2 and 4 harpazo is in the aorist tense denoting a “once and one time only occurrence.” Paul was caught up to the third heaven, paradise, once and only once. He was given this revelation once and for all.” Did you catch it? Buried in that list we here can see that I Thess 4:17 is included. I Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. So, in a quiet, buried way we were given the info that at the Return, it’s not height that happens, it’s being taught by revelation that happens, like what Paul got! The cover up continues in this chapter, in that this verse, I Thess 4:17, comes up again in this same WWAY chapter, on pate 100. Yet, there’s no mention that height is out and revelation teaching is in. But it IS repeated, again in secretive manner, in another way. In the next Volume IV God’s Magnified Word, we were AGAIN given this “drop the height” idea in hidden form. There on page 294 a large chunk of I Thess 4 is quoted, and we see this verse printed thusly: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be be changed. caught up [away] together with them in the For this corruptible must put on incorruption, clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…” In a tiny bracket we’re again given the teaching that at the Return, it’s not height in the sense of altitude above Sea Level that it’s talking about. It’s a rise from a partial 5-senses understanding to a total spiritual understanding.

Here is a summary of the 22 times vpw claimed what I'm claiming. All 22 were discussed in detail in the pages preceding this:

It’s obvious to me that on YOUR side of the big “IF,” none of this that I’m posting makes sense. There’s no point in my trying to make it fit with you. Likewise, there’s no point in your trying to make me want to abandon my side because of the objections (or jeering) you post from YOUR side’s perspective. That’s stuff I already know. But MY side of the big “IF” is pretty unknown to you still. It’s new and you haven’t heard the details of my analysis (from my side of the IF). Now on MY side of the big “IF,” that is, IF God really did pull a fast one and slip His Word into the world, via lots of people besides vpw, into the PFAL publications, THEN all these weird (from your side) things line up, are not no weird after all, and we have some gold to show for our efforts in the ministry. If what I’m saying is true, then we didn’t COMPLETELY waste our lives on TWI. Some of it was worth efforts. I’m just keen on identifying WHAT that good in the ministry was. *** It certainly is the case that vpw TOLD US on tape and in print that he was doing this (publishing God-breathed works), and in many ways, some quite subtle. This I can document voluminously. It’s interesting to see the many things that slipped by us (me included) all, and/or that were forgotten.

I wasn't referring to you. What I meant was: this sub-topic of the LV clip need not get derailed (better word than "lost"?) into that other topic many discuss here, namely the "absent Christ" topic.

Specifically, on the LV clip, it's the way he answers his own rhetorical question that intrigues me. Here's the rhetorical question: "How's come you cannot then by special revelation bring the return of Christ tonight?"

You haven't seen the analysis; only the conclusion. When every word is analyzed you'll see a whole lot that goes over your head in a casual listening to the tape. THis is not an easy one to pick apart, but I've had many years to work on it. Try your hand at it. Listen a few times and then read real slowly.

When you work the text, what that LV passage says is vpw got special revelation that now is the time to turn our hope into believing. It's pretty complex, but if anyone is interested, I can show you the analysis. I've worked with this passage for 18 years. You folks have had only a day or two to look at it. It’s a super unique and novel topic “hope turning to believing!” I’ve searched pretty well and can find no other teaching on this ever. It's pretty complex, and parts of it make no sense whatsoever, UNTIL you see that the special revelation is the PFAL writings. When he says: “Oh, because the revelation's already been given in the Word.” he means the PFAL writings here too. He can’t be referring to the KJV here. I can show how that fits. So, if anyone wants to work the text in detail, the small ending portion, I have it all written up and can contribute to such a discussion. What I’m trying to point out here is that there are many things in the record we did not pick up on or remember, this is a big one. *** Another lost or unnoticed item crucial to the Return is in Volume III, The Word’s Way. In that book, right under our noses, was printed a piece of vpw’s teaching that at the Return, we don’t physically rise above the earth to a high altitude. The rising to meet the Lord in the air is figurative is a secret vpw teaches in his books, but in hidden form. When it’s pointed out to you, though, it’s easy to see it. H plainly taught there that at the Return we rise in a spiritual sense, not physically. Very few grads who know this, but there it is in print.

I know that, and agree with it, and celebrate it. There is undoubtedly some kind of presence or essence or spirit of Christ that is present and comforting. We don't need to get lost in the "absent Christ" controversy in vpw's teachings right here. Scripture ALSO says there's some kind of INCREASE in his personal presence coming in the future. That would mean before the Return there is less of this personal presence; after the Return more presence.

That clip has a lot of context. Here is the last half: Abraham put hope aside, and he claimed the son that God had promised him. Let me explain this to you. Believing is action, right class? And the Word ... the Word of God ... is the foundation for the action. Hope is always something you can't have now. It's in the future. Not presently attainable unless ... and here's the key ... it is translated into a moment of decision by the revealed Word, which would bring it into reality, and that would be if God gave revelation .. Abraham, ninety-nine ... Sara, ninety. God said you gonna have a baby. So... ordinarily hoping for a baby was all he had. Hoping and hope can't bring it into reality, but because of what God said ... God gave special revelation ... he was able to believe, and he turned hope into a present reality. That's Abraham. How's come you cannot then by special revelation bring the return of Christ tonight? Oh, because the revelation's already been given in the Word. He's not coming back, because you need special revelation. The Word says he's coming back in fullness of time. It says as he came the first time when the fullness of time was come ... God sent His only begotten Son born of a what? Woman ... and that's the same truth that He puts in the Word ... he is coming back ... this same Jesus, which ye have seen go shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go ... when the hour of God is right. That's what He says in the Word so prayin' about it is not going to retard or facilitate the return of Jesus Christ. He's coming back when He's ready, and only He knows it. No man knoweth the day or the hour, remember? It's the Word, people. [laughs]. Hope, for instance, is like a man who makes an investment. He considers that investment in light of the future, right? That's hope.

I think I found the button. I'll try it. Clip from Living Victoriously in Hope-13.mp3

At the Ascension he became no longer personally present, until the Return, the parousia. Call it the absent Christ or not, SOMETHING went away on the day of the Ascension.