Mike

If I said an Art teacher, would you laugh then?

Do you mean the one in France or the one in Turkey?

So_crates, So, instead of taking me up on working #8, you'd rather post like that? Ok. That response of yours conjures a funny mind picture: I'm a geometry teacher going through a proof on the blackboard, and you're a drunk who stumbles in thinking you're in a Comedy Club. Your comments reminded me of jeering. I laughed. But you did say one lucid thing: Me too!!!! Oops! Sorry ladies. I didn't mean that. I too would PULL MY HAIR out when VPW would say things like that. I'd be embarrassed, then revolted. It was like he was breaking hiw own rules. The only thing I could think was brain fart. But he did it at least 3 times that I heard myself. It bothered me a lot. It was one the things that I finally soured on, and by the time of his death My attitude was that Craig was much better. BOY! Did I feel conned a few years later ! But then in 1998 I found the answer to those very unusual and difficult remarks of his. I've posted it here many times.

Interestingly, I felt similarly towards him back then. Timing is critical here. In the early 70's he was younger and more energetic. That was when I saw the worship happen. Like a rockstar in style. By 1980 and beyond the worship seemed to shift to Craig and become corporate style. The thousands of thankful blessed grads I talk about were from the early years. After the mega WOW years the 1980s had a lot more betrayal and control. I can agree with you and sympathize with those later grads who did not see good years. I saw many good years. By lucky coincidence I happened to move about those years in a way that JUST missed being affected dingbat leadership screw-ups. I lucked out a lot that way, until around 1984ish. The thousands of thankful blessed grads also are far less seen in the ranks of the Corps. I see more blessings going to those who stuck around for only a few years, took the class about 4 times, and moved on away from the control and the 1980s calamities. I deliberately contacted a lot of this type of grad when the Internet suddenly made that easy. They had no idea the ministry had collapsed and still had their books and were never betrayed one bit in the least. There are more of these non-Corps people than you know. I spent years, even decades now, looking for them.

It's not difficulty; it's time priorities, AND it's research technique selection. I discussed this before, if not on the early pages of that linked thread, then on concurrent threads, way back then. I'll repeat it a tiny here. We were taught in the class how attitude towards the ancient scriptures will affect how people interpret them. Wrong attitudes can skew the way the materials are handled. In the class we were taught ON PRINCIPLE, the originals had to be perfect. That perfection is a guiding principle to one researcher, that the goal is TOWARDS the Word of God and away from man’s interferences through miscopying and mistranslation and wrong dividing. Another researcher, having the OPPOSITE principle in operation, will regard ALL of the stages of the ancient scriptures was totally from the hand of man. We were taught that it should be no surprise that the unbeliever researcher is going to get different results from the believer researcher. How does this happen? There are many forks in the road of a research project; different methods are employed; differing priorities in attitudes develop further; final results are totally different. Even if there are zero forks in those roads, determining when the end point has been reached is another subjective call, and the unbeliever researcher may halt too early, reading too much into a preliminary result, and not able to anticipate and way out of a concluding argument. Meanwhile the believer researcher keeps at it, not giving up, and suddenly a surprise answer pops up! The other unbeliever researcher simply didn’t look hard enough, due to bias attitude. Remember how we were taught in the class that sometimes a biblical research problem could sit on VPW’s desk for 15 years before being solved? Well, it’s been almost 15 years since that thread started, and it just so happens I got a surprise answer to one of the items you challenged me to work with you folks. I think it’s time to work that one item a little farther than I could back then. It’s item #8 “all without distinction”

Two words that best describe "have been shown" are CONFIRMATION BIAS .

Previously, I had written: the "Pure Evil" model of VPW is an example of what I see as a totally prevailing point of view among almost all active posters. You folks are noble in allowing me to post, but in the models that you seriously entertain and develop, I see intellectual inbreeding. There was a TON of intellectual inbreeding done by many TWI people back in the day. I eschewed it then, as I do now. Not only that, but I also avoided the wierwille worship I saw at times. One theory I entertain at times is that the most vociferous anti-PFAL grads were once the biggest wierwille worshipers. All that worship energy got turned by bitterness into hate. Just a theory.

Hi WordWolf. Sorry to neglect your posts. To deal with the detail I'll comment in bright blue over your text.

It's hard to get away from this place. It's like FaceBook! In summary: if the PFAL collaterals are not God-breathed then all my bets are off, and all you folks are right about theft. HOWEVER, if they ARE God-breathed, then there is a whole other perspective that none of you have ever thought through in any detail.

I came on here today to try and answer Word Wolf's post, but again, I’ve failed. I had postponed and then neglected a few of his posts a few months ago, because they're always so long and detailed. I wanted to at least try to get to some of his points . SOOOO, if I neglect the current posts for a while, please forgive me. I want to see if there are any other things I’ve missed in all this flurry. I’m older and a lot slower than I used to be, so things get missed. So, while I’m reading and pondering WW’s posts, please be patient. If there’s any REALLY GOOD thing someone wants to talk about, as opposed to the usual attacks and deliberate misunderstandings, try to flag it with your heart. Maybe I’ll see it. Oh, while I’m thinking of it, I wonder why Word Wolf always leaves out my comments on Mickey Mantle? Please ask him if he shows up while I’m gone.

Not so, on several occasions he verbally claimed that they mostly were NOT his own, and one time he put that in print via Elena Whiteside. I've posted his written disclaimer here about ten or fifteen times, once just a few months ago.

I guess you missed my posts on Arthur Koestler a few hours ago... or forgot them.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course not. God's ownership will ultimately prevail. Meanwhile we are stuck with the adversary as the god of this world, along with all the worldly trappings like deeds and titles. It's temporary.

Another anomaly in TWI's copyright stance is the SNS tapes, or STS tapes from VPW's time. None of them were copyrighted, and they have been copied by PFAL friendly grads 15 years ago on CD and sold as complete sets of all VPW's teachings. THEN, two other grads more recently have posted them all on two Internet websites. Internet Archive and "Eternally Blessed." This is one more ADMITTEDLY ANECDOTAL item of proof that there are many thousands of PFAL friendly people out there. At Internetarchive.org you can find all of VPW's SNS tapes, plus a ton of others like Bishop Pillai, and others. Oh! All the Grateful Dead's shows are posted there too!

This is one of the Catch-22s of the copyright laws. They are man's laws and are not perfect. If you write something and don't copyright it, but do try to publish it. Another publisher can copyright it for themselves, and legally steal it from you. I heard this is the reason they copyrighted the PFAL class videos. HOWEVER, I think they waited until about 15 years until 1982 to copyrigjht it. I think that's the year.

I don't get it. Don't get what's funny, and don't get what your partial quote means, except that I have a typo in it. It should read: "If God gives a revelation to VPW to study BGL..." This is what VPW did actually claim in WLIL to Elena Whiteside. He said he did NOT originate most of the material. God did not give divine dictation for the collaterals. Maybe in a few places. But mostly VPW claimed that God taught him WHERE to get taught the truth. God taught him what use and what to not use. That's the major type of revelation VPW claimed he got, and not much actual text. It's interesting that God did give some text to Kenyon, BGL, Styles, etc. Or maybe He directed them most of it get it from their teachers. I see this thing as having grown for centuries before VPW, and so did he. That God can and would give His revelations to sinful men should not be a new subject. God can overlook sin a lot better than we can. For us it's difficult because sin affects us and those we love, as well as our fellow man. We get caught up in the degree of pain attached to sin, and it clouds or stops our thinking in some other areas. If God had His way we'd all be getting good inspirations of all types to help each other. That's all I ever wanted to do with this stuff, and I think that's all most of you wanted to do, originally.

No. I did not write that at all. You just didn't pick up on what I was saying. I explained it more just above, but God owns only His Word. If He gives a revelation to anyone , He still owns it. It belongs to Him. That's the only thing I'm talking about being God's property. You need to re-think my posts with this correction in mind.

I'm all in favor of the rule of law protecting both the marketplace and the academic institutions with patents and copyrights. I've posted much on this. In addition to this I also see a higher complication, also heavily posted, but worth repeating, when God is the owner of some piece of intellectual property. The devil owns all the rest. If God gives a revelation to BG Leonard it's really a loan. God still owns it, even though BG gets a copyright on it. If God gives a revelation VPW to study BGL and then sort through the material and use some of it, that's God's right. If you read the very short and very interesting "Introduction to the Appendixes" to RHST we were given some profound words on this topic there. I realize it's pretty dicey when man's law comes in conflict with God's. This is what the classical notion of Civil Disobedience is all about. If it's REALLY God's property, and VPW retrieves it for God's further uses from BGL, Bullinger, Keynon, Styles, then VPW can expect God to protect him from harsh consequences if man's law gets in the way. It seems that happened. I used this EXACT type of protection 30 years ago when I told Howard Allen that we in San Diego had a plenty of copies of the class here in 1988. If I were to write the book, I'd not copyright it maybe, unless I needed to to protect it from being altered. Maybe I could write it on a discussion forum in public, and the web WayBack machine will keep my originals protected. Hmmm. I'll have to ponder that. That would save a lot of copyright paperwork. I hate filling out forms.

So_crates, I have a very different opinion than yours, and most here, as to what constitutes intellectual ownership. For one angle, I've thought deeply on this topic for over 50 years, since High School, and several years before PFAL. I think, from what I've observed here, hardly any deep thought has taken place. I would very much like to glean some additional knowledge on this topic here at GreaseSpot, so several times since 2002 I’ve thrown out bait for anyone else who has thought deeper on intellectual ownership and originality. Because this has been a lifelong pursuit of mine, I glean knowledge from many odd sources. If any of you (plural) HAVE done any looking into this, the negative emotions of wanting SO much more to silence or nullify me seem to precluded your taking my bait and having a cool intellectual discussion about this. I’ve done this with other subjects here. The mirror riddle is an example. When I go to Starbucks I bring up the mirror riddle for deeper research into it. The more I discuss it, the deeper I know it, and the more detail I see. It’s a little more difficult, though, to bring up originality at Starbucks, so I do it here… and often. So…… So_crates, if you or anyone else here who constantly bring up plagiarism etc, ACTUALLY DO have some deeper thoughts as to how originality and “creativity” work, then this is your chance to discuss this obscure topic a little. Here’s a hint to deeper thoughts on originality: IT’S MOSTLY AN ILLUSION. Discuss a little. … I’ll wait. … Ok, now add to that angle, the tremendous complication of God being an owner of some intellectual property. Food for deep thought. More food: this topic comes up in the US Constitution, and in the main part, not the Amendments. That says a lot. It was a very fundamental idea, and very deep topic for the Founding Fathers 250 years ago. *************** P.S. A great book to augment this topic for any genuinely interested is Arthur Koestler’s “Act of Creation.” This is the same Arthur Koestler from “Thirteenth Tribe” fame. I was reading it in the days I was witnessed to in 1971. It’s too bad most grads’ introduction to Arthur Koestler was from “Thirteenth Tribe.” He was a profound thinker, and I was familiar with several of his works well before he wrote 13th T and the ministry promoted it. At one time he was an intellectual mover and shaker in intellectual world. His 13th T came later in his life, was pretty odd for him, and lost him a lot of followers, and he also had another oddball book in his later life. But his “Act of Creation” was a masterpiece, and is actually used by writing and comedy workshops for stimulating creative thinking. This practice may have spread to other arts. It’s been a decade or two since I peeked there.

skyrider, I'd still like to hear about that bullet item you posted on a BOT confrontation in 1984.

Meanwhile thousands and thousands remain blessed (to some degree) by PFAL, and more is to come.

I think you need to re-read my post. You seem to have missed a couple of points. I used simple extrapolation to go from the hundreds I interviewed, to the thousands. Are you saying that you WOULD change your theology if it were proved to you that many thousands are STILL thankful for PFAL?

...a different "it" is involved. My impression is that you are pretending to seriously consider my results IF IT WERE THE CASE that it was done scientifically. If a poll you respected were done, and many thousands of blessed PFAL fans turned up to really exist, THEN what would you do? Changer your theology? No. You'd find another way to deny the facts. Here's another indicator that proves the many thousands do exist: how many clone ministries and mini-ministries are there now that mimic PFAL? I'd estimate in the hundreds, and many of them have bootleg PFAL videos and books. For each of these small fellowships there are probably around 5 to 10 attendees, usually old grads. Do the math.

So_crates, are you pretending that if I had done my polling more formally and more scientifically that THEN you'd believe it....? Oh, really? But for my lack of rigor you just can't believe MANY thousands were , and STILL ARE blessed by PFAL? I'm so glad to see your confidence in proper statistics. *** In 2017 I saw two such grads take some slightly risky stands on their loyalty to PFAL. Both of them, independent of each other, posted the entire video PFAL class on two different websites. Many hundreds grads flocked there and were able to download the files. One site was taken down several months later, and I think the other is still up. I read the comments of many grads whose names were totally unfamiliar to me. It sounded just like the batch of grads I hung out with 30 years ago. Many HUNDREDS of grads have been copying and circulating that class for 30 years now. The existence of PDF versions of the collateral books was announced HERE and proved very easy to find since 2003. Did you know that PFAL is possibly the most bootlegged video item in history? I get the impression most most GreaseSpot posters have been doing the exact opposite of me for the past 30 years. I seek out positive, thankful grads and I find them. I get the impression most of you folks have been cutting off all contact with most grads in general, and especially with positive, thankful grads. Can you name 2 close friends who are positive grads who still are fluent with PFAL ideas? I can assure you with complete credibility, that I do hang out with PLENTY of negative, unthankful grads. I never became insular when TWI was cooking during the 70s and early 80s. I saw lots of grads do that, and I also saw many fall into wierwille worship. My impression is that the unawareness here of thousands and thousands of thankful grads is due to continuing the insularity and the intellectual inbreeding I mentioned earlier. It's your opportunity to convince me otherwise..