Mike

I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.

It doesn't. Not in earthly courts. They are limited in that they cannot see when and where God owns something and where God gives a revelation. Those courts have no ability to "think through" thoroughly what it means for God to give a revelation to men and expect them to share it. It seems no one here has the ability to "think through" thoroughly what it means for God to give a revelation to men and expect them to share it. In man's courts - guilty In God's Higher Court - NOT guilty Until you rise up and see it from a greater height you will always be stuck. I could care less about plagiarism guilt in man's court. If I were find myself in such a court I would be wise to change my tune as much as possible. This forum is not such a court so go ahead and proclaim guilt in all its triviality. God's attitude will prevail.

That means the collaterals.

Don’t forget you only see my beliefs in a tiny window in time. AND, you only can comprehend my views to the extent that you set down your Pure Evil glasses and take a fresh look at the heart behind my words. You are often distracted by your search for targets to shoot at in my words. My points get missed. I can see it often. You only see my beliefs in a tiny window in time. There are years and seasons when I was greatly disappointed in VPW. I was NEVER into any hero worship over him, though I have acknowledged his being well equipped mentally. Personally I have often thought of him as bit of a jerk at times, and a remark to that effect last week caused a stir here because of the one dimensional inaccuracies many have in mind here regarding what I post. There were also years and seasons when my affinity to the film class dimmed. I was NEVER into the idea that anything was perfected in the writings until 1998, long after TWI was over for me. So when you say “it seems too bad you don't see anything outside of the box of dictor's supposed godly inspiration” you are COMPLETELY unaware of the many, many times I have spent outside of this well constructed WayBox I am now so well protected in. It is not me who has been stuck in boxes. I see many here who were stuck in pretty pure Wierwille worship for some years, and wham!, now it’s stuck some years in a Pure Evil box to describe VPW. I think I am a very rare poster here who has had a rich sense of balance to weigh my decisions on loyalty.

You don't get it. I'm not proving anything like in a math book, or in a court of law. What I do is constantly show you that there were things you missed in the teaching, and that there are many things you have not yet given a fair chance to think through. What I posted about revelation given to Kenyon is an EXPLANATION of know n events. It stands on it explanatory power, not on it's being an entry in God's Revelation Log Book that I'm supposed to supply you for proof. I believe he said that in the long transcript I posted a few days ago from 1965. I see some back in my explanation in that VPW credited his sources as having received revelation AS OPPOSED to him coming up with it or having the revelation directly. yes, THAT citation of VPW's I can document. He said there that they had "light" from God.

My thesis is that the good and bad mix in the extraPFAL activities FOR THE CORPS (mostly) served as camouflage, and that your resulting assessment of that mix was blurred. The only way to know if my thesis is true is to come back to PFAL and see its purity. Don't come back to see apparent errors. Let it bless you again, like it did long ago. I agree the trappings of the ministry are not worth coming back to, but written PFAL is a lot different.

It's too bad you didn't see this distinction in types of research earlier, like in 1979 and 1985, when VPW documented it in the Way Magazine. Maybe there are more KEY items you missed in the flurry. I know I did. When I came back to PFAL I saw firsthand that I had forgotten many things, and many things I did not fully absorb or understand back then. One of my most often themes here is that we all forgot or missed entirely many KEY items in his teaching.

It sounds to me like you are rejecting the PFAL taught idea that God, as original owner of all, gave it all to Adam, who then owned it. Then Adam, as owner gave it all to the adversary. Then Jesus Christ paid the price to buy it back. We await his redeeming of the purchased possession at this time. Practical ownership: still the adversary. Promised ownership: ours as we claim it through believing. Future ownership: God is all in all. If you have a model different from the above, I could care less about it. Our ownership debate must take place within the above PFAL framework of ownership. If you don't want to accept those ground rules, then I must bow out of the debate. My stand is that God owns the PFAL revelations and nothing was stolen. You are trifling yourself with trivialities in the 5-senses realm, and I am not interested in that.

This is the model I have proposed here over and over for years. I submit it for your consideration. I developed this model from the many comments (largely ignored) that VPW put into the tape and print record on this issue. I choose to believe these things he said about the revelations because he was so successful in helping people via the film class. If you want to see this documentation, it is available. I'm not as fluent at finding it as I was ten years ago, so it may take a little time. (still searching for my Research Geek posts) I used to post back then MANY such pieces of documentation quotes, but I'm trying to keep it lighter this time, and more conversational.

Not stolen. God owns His Word. If He gives revelation to a Kenyon, it still belongs to God. BTW, God does not own error. God gave a revelation to a Kenyon. God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon." Not stolen.

I've thought through this war metaphor often, but like all them, it does break down. Here's a complication that the war metaphor can't handle: in TWI it was the case that ALL "committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms." We ALL sinned and played the role of the devil's advocate AT TIMES. Some did this up more than others. But we ALL could get perfect forgiveness EVERY TIME from the Father, and many times we got complete forgiveness from our brothers and sisters. This kind of subtle switching of sides and forgiveness doesn't happen in a military war. We were in a spiritual war.

The film class was pretty pure good; writings were the best good. All else was questionable, meaning not pure, meaning containing problematic elements. Sometimes those elements exploded in the wrong; sometimes went pretty well. The only thing worth going back to are the writings.

There are many, many grads who never went into the Corps, never got caught up in the sin that seems now (with Me Too) to exist in all human organizations, and who drifted off with the gold that PFAL gave them. I personally know (or knew) a good twenty such grads who regard the good as far better than the bad. I have come to view the damage in the ministry to be similar (not identical) to the casualties of a war. I'm thankful for those who put their lives on the line and worked hard in the ministry, and often got hurt in the mechanics of the war. Lots of people benefited from these sacrifices. I try to keep this in mind when dealing with the bitterness so many leaders have to deal with now.

It happens. If you give me specifics, maybe I can fine tune my work some.

Hi DWBH, Good to see you stop by. I’d only like to address one paragraph of your post for now. You wrote: “Mike lives in a reality of his own making.” Oh PLEASE. If I lived in a reality of someone else's would THAT be better? Doesn’t everyone do both to some degree? Does this sound like a college Philosophy dialog? It does to me. I carefully construct what I believe, and both positive and negative emotions are not trusted guidance in that careful construction. I saw many grads fly on positive emotions in the 70s, and I now see many grads fly on negative emotions. I don’t deny the validity of the emotions; deny I do their guidance trustworthiness. It took me 11 years to go out WOW because I was not going to drop everything until I was sure it was worth it. The mindset I adopted around 1998 and demonstrated here is not at all like the Way brain of the 1980s, but that’s pretty much how you look at it. In a micro nutshell I research and embrace knowledge that explains (1) what went right? (2) what went wrong? and (3) what can we do about it? The main difference in our worlds is you (most posters collectively) have a Pure Evil model to explain what went wrong. You, for the most part, deny the existence of what went right. I spend most of my time focusing on what went right and what to do about it now. I do NOT live in a Pollyanna Pseudo Reality where I am insensitive to the hurts that happened. I was massively hurt in a lot of non-obvious ways by all that went wrong. I come here and constantly hear of the hurt of others. I do not ignore what went wrong. It’s just not my main focus. *** You wrote: “I knew him back in the day, both in NY, and at HQ. He is a harmless, good-natured, gentle and kind soul imo.” Thank you for that. It might bring some relief to others here to see that. At times posters here can (understandably) think I am defending the attitudes and the system that caused such harm. Some have even thought I was building for myself a harem of devotees, trying to duplicate the past problems. I’m not trying to cause any harm here. I realize there is a mission here to rescue people who genuinely are trapped in the latest TWI-4 Box, as well as refugees from TWI structures of previous decades. I realize that many conversations with me here are NOT really conversations in your eyes, but are “Influence Dialogs” aimed at those refugees. Ralph, you were referring to this when you wrote: “Thanks to all who take the time to post in response to Mike's delusional propaganda. It protects newbies and lurkers from the insanity of wierwille drunken delusional, self-aggrandizing Bible fairy tales.” One of the reasons I’m staying put in one thread is to make that job less complicated for you all. Of course, you guys who are trying to influence and educate those coming out of TWI. I want to influence leaders of TWI who abandoned their true mission over 30 years ago. But I also like to have conversations when possible. *** You wrote: “But, he got stuck in a bad batch of kult koolaid because of some 14 year old hippies (who I also know) who were electrified by Jesus Christ as they knew him for the first time. They were in the midst of a genuine Christian revival that dictor paul was lucky enough to grab…” What I experienced in 1971 on Long Island was definitely “a genuine Christian revival” and I did my best to maintain in my own life that genuineness, and I think I’ve succeeded. Sorry to hear you failed. Please don’t project your failure onto me. Maybe if I had jumped headlong into the Corps and WOW then I too would have failed to maintain my Groovy Christian zeal and purity. There were plenty of other areas in which I did fail, and miserably, but this one I held tight onto. What went right for me centered on the PFAL film class, and all else in the ministry was of questionable benefit. I focused on the film class, and then in 1998 I graduated to the writings. I eventually did go WOW, but I was always suspicious of the Corps. I suppressed it and tried to work along as best as possible, but by 1984 I realized I was going to be systematically defying a lot of “orders” that a few drifting Reverends were handing out. In 3 or 4 years that deliberate defiance had to escalate to confrontation. I had no paycheck or Corps status to lose, so I spoke up. It’s hard for you all to imagine a fellowship that is not encumbered by ANY of the TWI machinery, and it’s just PFAL books and magazine articles that set the tone. That’s the reality I’ve constructed for myself, and I think it’s safer than devotion to an activity centered around a long past manifestation of pure evil.

It looks to me that maybe you did not read or understand my splitting up the idea of research into three types. Maybe you find it better to ignore it. If you understand my division here, tell me to which type of research you are referring to?

I just ordered it on a Kindle. I've never done that before, but I wanted to be able to size up the font size. Now I've got to research (hard to get away from that word) how to do a Kindole on my PC and how is Amazon going to deliver it. Just when I thought I knew it all.

I deliberately changed "TWI Box" to "Way Box" to honor the only way to the Father, Jesus Christ. The legal 5-senses corporation is TWI, while the Way is Jesus Christ.It's always been that Way for me.

I reject "obtain someone elses work to steal" I accept "tell the research department what he believes to passage means and it was the research departments job to find the verses to back it up." You are also right about this not being like the scientific method. It's not supposed to be. This kind of research is how a college professor writes a book with grad students assisting. The thesis is the professor's only. The grad students are assisting only, but gaining experienc e for when they conduct their own research. This is a time honored tradition in academia. It's well known that with many academic books the actual dog work and most writing is done by the grad students and the OFTEN get no credit. The thesis of the book is the sole property of the professor. This is the way it was in the 1960s. It may havbe changed some.

Hi Charlene, We’ve chatted a little here a few years ago, and we knew each other only by face back in the Groovy Rye days, as well as HQ. As time permits I’ll have to check out your book. I do respect your skills. What you say is true, that I am keeping myself within a very contained world view. This is very deliberate on my part, but you are wrong in your supposition that I fail to learn and expand. My Way Box is a lot different from yours. There are similarities, though, and I’d like to explore them. Where can I get your book? See, I just came out of my customized Way Box via the secret back door to take in information contrary to my deliberately chosen world view. I did this same thing ALWAYS in the 1970. while you were practicing the opposite technique of learning, and staying inside your Way Box. Did your box have a secret back door back then? In the 70s I’d go witnessing about JCNG (even before the book was written) to ministers of conventional churches JUST to get a thorough overview. I wanted to be VERY sure about the Trinity. Sometimes I was in tears driving home, because they had studied their position well. It was very hard to get a rounded spiritual education back then. No other grads would join me in these endeavors. I made my deliberate decisions back then to follow ideas that proved out to be solid, not the latest bandwagon issues coming down from leadership. I saw many WaYBoxed grads follow their emotions, do very blittle research on their own, and fall into leadership worship. If you’ve been reading my recent posts here, I’ve dropped many comments that show I’ve been educating myself in many surprising ways all along, still am, and my deliberate decision to stay within the city walls God has provided me is an intelligent one. What I post I can back up, and can show it is more consistent and more commplete than most posters here, and maybe even yours. All that I posted about the 3 kinds of research above is correct, and I can post the places where we were taught it. It just didn’t quite all sink in for us all back then, and we forgot a lot. I search the records to refresh my understanding of what we were taught. It’s much better than memory. I only arrived at my present world view in 1998. It’s a lot different than how I thought in the 70s and 80s. I those days I vaguely thought there were some sections of the 1968 film class that were either God-breathed or “straight prophesy” but I didn’t know how to find where each such section would begin and then end. It never occurred to me that it was just an introduction to the printed publications. My new 20 year old customized Way Box is tight and useful. I fine tune it daily.

I think that he PROPERLY paid no attention to the authors as he was ministering to his flock. It was an informal, casual, small setup. He did cite his sources for the more ambitious of his students in the unconventional ways I have shown. I think you are superimposing the large ministry of the 1980s on top of the tiny ministry of the 1950s. If the ministry had been very large back in the 50s, then I think you have a point. That point was respected by VPW as the ministry DID get huge, and he gradually brought in many more scholarly citations in the late 70s and 80s.

I was an amateur historian of the Sixties for 10 years and to the point that I wrote on it and spoke on it at Open Mics for 5 years. I can assure you that the 1967 Summer of Love in San Francisco was largely fueled by 14 year old girls. These 3 girls that witnessed to me were more experienced in all things Hippie than me, including acid. I can assure you that all of my relationships with Way women have been honorable, and I always treated them like cherished sisters. One of these 3 bona fide hippie chicks is friends with me on FB today.

That was my point. They weren't scholars, they were far from it. They were smart, though, and very aggressive at witnessing. There were only 3 people in that fellowship over 21. It was packed with High School and Jr High. kids. They did not need scholarly citations. t

These are good points, if the process happened that way, but it didn't. What you are describing here is what I call "divine dictation." If you read my recent posts on this, I have often pointed out how VPW insisted that the process was NOT divine dictation. It started verbally in discussions, then went to sermons, then to recorded sermon, then to transcripts, then to editing by a team of people with VPW supervising every step. Not divine dictation; not divine transcription.

I need to learn how to search better here. Modgellan, might you give us that text I had pasted? You know if I had misrepresented Research Geek's post in my pastes in any way everyone would have piled on top of me.