Mike

Correct. Somehow I avoided the Corps. SO glad! I worked close to many, and liked many, but was often aghast at some of the mass graduation products. I once got a good round of laughter from a HQ co-worker when I suggested the main goal of the Corps Program was to remove some idiots from the field so they can do less damage. I was a twig leader twice 1974-76 and 1978-82. Worked at HQ in Tape Duplicating 1976-78 Went out WOW 1982 to the foreign heathens on Rhode Island.

Thank you , sir.

This is one of the more “on topic” posts of mine here. Part of the book on VPW should include this item for balance. I finally found one of my “re-post pastes” of Research Geek’s post on Pikes Peak and VBPW’s degree. The thread he posted this on is now lost due to bandwidth issues over 10 years ago. But I can assure you my re-posts were totally accurate. If they weren’t, back then they would have been torn apart immediately on my posting. They weren’t. For me, I’ve said theology degrees awarded to anyone mean almost nothing to me. I have great respect for the hard core degrees like Math and Physics, but it drops for humanities degrees. I just don’t care much, and never did. For me, VPW did earn that degree as much as any other minister or priest, and I happily called him Doctor Wierwille all the time, BASED ON his performance for me and my needs. I need not check out his degree any more than that for my own interests. But Research Geek did investigated that degree by going to Pikes Peak and checking out the record. He was one of the very few posters back then that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold. He was very respected by all here (me included) as fair minded and smart. Originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002 with my bold fonts: *** “I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall. “The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort. “So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.” *** VPW not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.

I think a lot of the crazy excessive screaming and confrontation came into TWI the early 80s as part of Athletes of the Spirit. At that time many analogies were being made between spiritual discipline and the discipline we see developed in the military and in sports. In boot camps and in locker room pep talks a lot of screaming and ego humiliation are used. Like genuine tough love performances needing a prior mastery of tender love the same hold for this kind of tough discipline. A little seems like it can be useful at times, but things back in the 80s got totally out of balance here.

Yes. But there are SOME things I'm settled on. I do look at fine tuning, and often. If I was afraid of re-thinking some of my positions I'd stay far away from here. I also learn here, and in a number of ways.

No. It was a compliment. I'm learning how to use a search engine, and looked at some old threads from back than. I'm a little surprised at how crazy it got. I'm thankful for any civil discussion I can get, and it's much more available now. It was a genuine compliment, So_crates. I do not have a chip on my shoulder at all. I have been examining my own motivations for being here again, and some are not yet totally clear. However, I do know I'm not trying to taunt, toy with, or challenge anyone in a negative way. Yes, I want to challenge all to re-think some things they don't think need re-thinking, and THAT is a challenge to anyone.

I find it interesting that you would have such feelings, and it's also interesting (in a different way) that you would post them. This is nothing compared to the fur flying and the garbage that was thrown at me 15 years ago. I think you came in on the tail end of all that when things had calmed down a lot.

Thank you, Rocky. I thought your whole post and post before that were fair and appreciated. We found something we can work with. BTW, it was So_crates, and not you who demanded a proof. I had no idea what kind he meant. He mentioned Geometry. I'd love to fill in the gaps to my extremely abbreviated "proof process" that you commented on and accepted…. Sorta. Time is not as abundant for me as it was 10 years ago, and my eyes also limit me at times. I can only read with one eye now, though surgery may fix that. I had posted about 10 years ago the proof process that worked for me when I had a lot more energy. Finding those files is difficult right now because I need to learn the newer search engines to find where I posted my gradual journey ending up in 1998 believing that PFAL was the end of my search. The Win10 search engine seems to not find anything inside .htm files and .mht files. I’m currently asking computer geek friends how the latest search engines work so I can find my posts on proving PFAL to myself. I did 5000 posts back then. I have copies of all my posts that were deleted here. Are you listening So_crates? Eventually I’ll find my “proof” for you. The rainy season is just starting here, and I’ll have a little more time then.

Another point on “toying.” Put yourself in my shoes. How would you deal with several people breathing several different styles of wrath at YOU? One of the ways I deal with it is I ignore it. I also sometimes use humor. Maybe you who feel toyed with could grow a sense of humor, or at least try using it.

Ok. PFAL is the best explanation of the best Loving God and His Son Jesus Christ that I have come across after several search phases in my life. As such, it's the only God I can live and die for. Having earned credibility for me in the above categories, PFAL says of itself that it is God-breathed many times. I have documented 22 of them here. The ancient scriptures are void of authority, and there is a great NEED for us to have a God-breathed document. There are no other viable candidates for being God-breathed in the world today. One of the most often stated arguments thrown at me is that "VPW is turning over in his grave. He never claimed it was God-breathed." Then I bring out my 22 "Thus saith the Lord" statements he made in the class and those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me. I've seen OODLES of things that grads here have either forgotten from the class, or that they never got in the first place. If you want to prove that PFAL is God-breathed to yourself, come back to PFAL and PFAL only (no TWI bunk) and see it's purity. See the good loving God that emerges from it. *** I was not toying in any way before. I am genuinely interested in proofs in general. I want to know if you have ever seen a proof, and if so what? Very few things ever get proved like in Geometry. Most proofs are like courtroom proofs. It's a manipulation of reasonable doubt.

Not so, Rocky. Not toying, but I'm also not allowing you to toy with me. If you want to demand a certain format and length for my proof, go ahead. I will refuse such demands. But conversation allows me to build my argument. I never said it was brief or simple.

I have had similar experiences and have felt the same way you describe, and I've known other close friends to feel the same. The areas that DID resonate with me from PFAL were God being all light and no darkness, God's extreme ability and willingness to forgive, that death was unconsciousness and was against God's will..... I guess I was a disgruntled Catholic philosopher. In material abundance issues I was pretty much a hippie and didn’t try hard. I’ve since come to believe that we were not all that good at reaching the state of perfect pure believing with zero doubt. I’ve also thought that what we tried to apply the law of believing toward was not fully matured. I see that law as accurately referring to spiritual things, but only approximate for material things. I’m still working on some details.

In addition to WHY do you ask, what will you do with the answer? Have you thought that through? BTW, this same thing was asked of me here ten years ago. Should I go fetch those files?

Here is one such post where that documents part of that PROOF PROCESS as it was was proceeding. I just posted it on the other thread and though you may have missed it. It's in response to Chockful's question about the J.S. Paper on adultery and how it affected me: I was a twig leader in 1980, years before the JS Paper came out. In that year the need for some more clear doctrine on sex moved from the rumor stage to the actual stage when a carload of grads from the State of Maine arrived. There were flimsy rumor doctrines floating around the ministry for years that seemed to justify sex outside marriage. In Maine they got very active at it. I mentioned earlier that my experience (and that of two other close friend HQ staff members) with these loose sex activities was totally zero. I only heard the flimsy doctrines or justifications there once, and it was very disappointing in who I had to hear it from (another friend). But the rumors on the field were stronger. What we did in my twig in 1980 was work the words in a Young’s Concordance, and then we compiled a list of the the flimsy doctrines or justifications that we had heard, and then we worked verses that seemed to unravel them. In July of 1987 I had resisted hearing the many rumors of the ministry falling apart and the POP. There were many reasons for this, San Diego’s great distance from the ROA’86 was one of them. Hardly anyone went. I slugged off the rumors due to non-authoritative sources. But that July I heard that Ralph D was coming out for a visit. I went to hear him speak and was stunned at all the bad news about HQ and Geer, and at how angry every one was. I knew absolutely nothing prior to that meeting, at that late date. On a table was a stack of copies of the JS Paper. I had been told that anyone who read it would become a Trinity believer. I was not afraid and picked it up. I was stunned even more at what I saw. It was almost identical to what we had found 7 years earlier. Even the the flimsy doctrines or justifications we had listed were there in the Appendixes. JS did a much more thorough job, and his Appendixes outnumbered ours by a few. I felt nauseous the next day. It shook my confidence in PFAL to the core for about 11 years. I confronted leaders and friends about it. I lost many friends and would have been blacklisted but there was too much turmoil for leadership to bother with me. In the next 11 years I experimented with all sorts of fundamental belief systems. It was quite an adventure. When I finally came back to PFAL in 1998 it was deliberate and it was after considering a wealth of information. I shopped around and compared.

I'm sorry to hear of your situation. I am not playing games. I suggest you calm down and end the demands. Here’s what I will tell you. I proved it to myself that it was my best bet. How I proved it to my self was a process, and not a one page process. If you are going to get more detail from me on that proof process, then kindly grant me the same respect you demand of me. If you think that there exists…….any sheet of paper(s) of Geometry looking proof, with steps sequentially ordered, and objective mechanical decisions are executed at each stage, until the final line reads “Therefore, PFAL is God-breathed.” And all the experts agree………… If you think that there exists a kind of proof like that, then I’d like to see one. If that’s the kind of proof you want, you are on a fruitless quest. They don’t exist. Now there are other kinds of proofs, and differing kinds of proofs lead to differing kinds and levels of surety. The process that I proved PFAL’s God-breathedness to myself was a long one. I’ve put many of the details of that process in the two threads I’ve been posting on recently. *** Another angle I like to look at in discussions is motivation. WHY do you ask me for such a proof? There’s aq lot to explore there. This topic could take all Winter.

I have no idea what you even mean by a proof. Show me something similarly deep that you feel is proved.

I'd just love to have a conversation on proofs. Have you ever seen a such a proof?

How many characters are you going to limit me to? 40? How about one page?

Didn't you read what I wrote over there? I said that I'm very tempted to work on that interesting question. Humor me and maybe I'll fall for that temptation.

I thought I did address that. I'll do it again, with more detail so you can see what I meant. I was a twig leader in 1980, years before the JS Paper came out. In that year the need for some more clear doctrine on sex moved from the rumor stage to the actual stage when a carload of grads from the State of Maine arrived. There were flimsy rumor doctrines floating around the ministry for years that seemed to justify sex outside marriage. In Maine they got very active at it. I mentioned earlier that my experience (and that of two other close friend HQ staff members) with these loose sex activities was totally zero. I only heard the flimsy doctrines or justifications there once, and it was very disappointing in who I had to hear it from (another friend). But the rumors on the field were stronger. What we did in my twig in 1980 was work the words in a Young’s Concordance, and then we compiled a list of the the flimsy doctrines or justifications that we had heard, and then we worked verses that seemed to unravel them. In July of 1987 I had resisted hearing the many rumors of the ministry falling apart and the POP. There were many reasons for this, San Diego’s great distance from the ROA’86 was one of them. Hardly anyone went. I slugged off the rumors due to non-authoritative sources. But that July I heard that Ralph D was coming out for a visit. I went to hear him speak and was stunned at all the bad news about HQ and Geer, and at how angry every one was. I knew absolutely nothing prior to that meeting, at that late date. On a table was a stack of copies of the JS Paper. I had been told that anyone who read it would become a Trinity believer. I was not afraid and picked it up. I was stunned even more at what I saw. It was almost identical to what we had found 7 years earlier. Even the the flimsy doctrines or justifications we had listed were there in the Appendixes. JS did a much more thorough job, and his Appendixes outnumbered ours by a few. I felt nauseous the next day. It shook my confidence in PFAL to the core for about 11 years. I confronted leaders and friends about it. I lost many friends and would have been blacklisted but there was too much turmoil for leadership to bother with me. In the next 11 years I experimented with all sorts of fundamental belief systems. It was quite an adventure. When I finally came back to PFAL in 1998 it was deliberate and it was after considering a wealth of information. I shopped around and compared.

What kind of a proof do you want? An air tight one, where the logic forces you to see that you have no choice but believe it, and ask me where you could send your ABS to?

So, my saying "I touched a nerve" has touched a nerve?

Hey, I'm keenly interested in the facts revolving around the John.S. paper on adultery. In 1980, several years prior, my twig did an independent precursor of that paper. It was smaller, and not as professional, but was almost in complete agreement with his. I was informed that VPW asked Ralph D and Vince F to research the word “adultery” in 1982, and that then they asked for John S’s help. Then, after VPW’s death and after the POP was read in 1986, it was Walter who fired John S. That’s the best I know of this. Am I wrong? If so where?

Yikes! I'll spread my self thin. One of the other reasons I was staying on one thread is because there’s just too much for me to keep track of hopping around like this. I wasn’t even close to answering (and neatly refuting) all the false charges, mis-readings, and lacks of understanding. I must have touched a nerve there, and I was waiting on the flurry of posts to calm down. I quickly read some posts and missed a few others. Should I abandon them? I’m tempted to, because this topic is very close to my heart.

Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story. We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.