Mike

I'm all for that. This is a very extended project, though. It's massive. It's also complicated by the MANY mi9sunderstandings that abound as to what I am saying. I think it's important to clear up the simple ones.

It's impossible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in another person's life. It's very possible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in your own life. Did you miss my longer post on this last week?

I did read some of your posting on your current belief system, Raf. But I don't quite understand this analogy. Not that I need to...

Twinky, Thanks for the suggestion to give me a break. This “one place” stipulation and “coherent (to you)” stipulation sets the bar a little high, though. I was challenged many times, ten years ago, to put my thesis into written form and in one place. Often I’ve thought about it over the past decade. I’m not sure how possible it is, but I now have a systematic plan for getting the basics together. Even just that is a massive project. The rainy season started yesterday in San Diego, so time will becoming abundant for the next 3 months. I’m coming and going looking at and copying many old threads. Many of the pieces of my manifesto are already on this board. In the meantime, I do not mind at all answering some questions. In just the past couple weeks I’ve seen that there are MANY misconceptions here to MANY things I stand for. If we can get those cleared up a little, then communication on the “PFAL=God-breathed” idea will be much more efficiency. Another point on efficiency: wasting your time on shaming me or ridiculing me are vain and stupid. Let’s stick to the ideas, and not try hard to spoil someone’s ego. It is just SO twi to use shame and ridicule to try and force an idea into someone. Such effort makes the instigator look ugly. So, I’d appreciate a break on the shame and ridicule. But keep the questions coming that can clear up some of the shocks that this most controversial idea is so surrounded by.

Not Balaam's a$$, but Balaam himself. Balaam’s story is an OT example of the GREAT forgiveness of God. It's much greater than any forgiveness we can muster. I've seen in my life how God can work with me even when I'm out of fellowship. But when I'm in fellowship things work MUCH better. The faster I can get back in fellowship, the faster God forgives and is ready to work with any readiness I operate. Balaam’s story is one of God’s GREAT ability to work with even just a little good believing. Instead of guessing wrongly that I have some inappropriate affection toward VPW, look at my deliberate focus on the God that forgives MUCH more than humans want Him to. I imagine many of Uriah’s relatives wanted God to not forgive David. My God can forgive David and still work with him. Can you forgive David for his treachery and murder? My God can forgive VPW and still work with him. My God can forgive me of WHATEVER and still work with me. My God can forgive you and work with you the same way. If God really did forgive VPW (over and over) and still get lots of blessing of God’s people accomplished, JUST THINK of how much more blessing He can accomplish with you. Instead of reveling in how much you don’t want to see God’s grace and forgiveness given to VPW, try reveling in how much MORE blessing God can accomplish with you. VPW had a lot of inefficiencies that limited how much God could do with him. With less inefficiencies in your life, God and His GREAT forgiveness and grace can do SO MUCH more with you. VPW accomplishing all he did testifies to God’s GREAT love. Those are my thoughts. I choose to look at God’s forgiveness. To see that Jesus forgave Judas is key. Instead of me talking up VPW, I choose to magnify God.

I pretty well agree, and am working in that direction. However I have seen a few hints helping my organization as I deal with a few simple distractions. I am refraining from getting into the extended topics. If I can clear up a simple misunderstanding, it's worth the distraction.

Ok. Here's a point. A friend of mine saw Professor Irwin Cory live in NYC a few years ago. He was over 95 then. I remember seeing him on the old Steve Allen Show in 1963. That wasn't the point I was going to make. This is it: I'm definitely not a worshiper of "all things" VPW. I've stated here many ways I have a healthy distance between him and me. There's only a few key things that get my attention about him. The main thing is the written form of PFAL. This is NOT solely due to VPW. As has been posted here many times by many, and published in print and on tape by VPW: ..... he did not originate most of this written material. PLUS, there was a very competent team of Way grads who assisted him. Some say large sections of articles and chapters were written by them, under his supervision. So why not say I'm a worshiper of all those teachers of VPW, and all those assistants of VPW, since my main focus is on written forms of PFAL? *** Another thing I appreciate about VPW was the way he got this material to me. I doubt if any other Christian could have done that. He found a way to get many people the material. I admire him and his skills for that. Of course, if I say that too poetically, then I'm accused by Word Wolf of worship again. Baloney! I admire LOTS of people for their skills and accomplishments. The way VPW got this material out into the world where it was needed is admirable. The amount of material he put into the Foundational film class was a great achievement. What I am most appreciative to VPW is that now I have awareness of, due largely to his efforts, the good God to worship, the Father who raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

Twinky, I need to run, but I do want to answer this much. Several quick fixes of miscommunications will make it easier for you to deal with me. The God-breathed stuff will not get a quick fix, though. Yes it is a controversial thesis (or whatever) I have and want to write out in a manifesto. It's probably the MOST controversial idea possible for PFAL grads. I know that. I don't mean to shock you. There are a few minor things though I will fix when I return. The major will have to wait fort a while.

T-Bone, I responded to this and had some editing problems. My response is now above a few posts, without the notifications bells and whistles.

a) By "devoid of authority" I mean near every English word can be contested by some scholar somewhere; many ancient words by another manuscript somewhere. Something that doesn't have this void can be authoritative. Especially nuanced attitudes that context builds. When I see and understand something from the book of Revelation inside PFAL, then I have something authoritative from that book. So it depends where you read in Revelations and how much of it you read whether it's devoid of authority or not. b) No. Please read it again. Plus, I'll try again: Because we mark in it and change words and commas, we are demonstrating that we know what is printed is not authoritative. We are trying to supply something we think is more authoritative when we mark in the KJV, usually. You also wrote: "Where does he think the bible gets its authority from?" Didn't I ask you all here? What do YOU think the KJV Bible gets its authority from. That's a more precise question that yours IMO. I don't know exactly what you mean by "the bible." What DO you mean by that ever so slightly ambiguous phrase?

It was a computer glitch here. That's how Internet chats work these days. I'm working on your two questions now.

30 minutes ago, T-Bone said: Mike, you’ve used interchangeably the words “thesis” (a theory put forward as a premise to be proved) and “manifesto” (a published declaration of intentions, motives or views of the issuer; when related to religious matters it’s referred to as a creed). You're right. I'm learning as I go, having been prodded a little in a new direction for me Whether it’s a manifesto or a thesis - I think you have some more research to do; I think your complaints in this post are groundless when you ignore specific questions and challenges to many of the points in your thesis / manifesto ; .Some questions I miss in the flurry, especially when on a bad eye day... or hour. Some I simply don't have time for. Some are obvious bait in a direction I feel is a waste of time. Some I'm stumped on, and want to ponder a little. ...........and then SOME I answer, and even can handle follow-up Qs. Have you done a survey on how many of each category? That's too much work for me. if you’re referring to a post of mine as pouncing on you - .NO! I wasn't thinking of you. In the past week or so I have appreciated your heart and our dialogs much. I'm trying hard to remember who is who, and you are one I do remember as pretty friendly. It would help me MUCH if people used picture icons. Even crazy nasty one would help if that's how you feel about your posting. you make it sound like you’re an innocent victim - but what I was doing was calling BS on you forwarding false assumptions about the corps program - something you have openly admitted you’ve never experienced; .I always have admitted my experience and lacks of experience here. Many times even. I payed very close attention to the Corps program for many reasons. I loved many in it. I was often pressured to go in, both by people, tapes, and my own emotions. I investigated it a lot for that and other reasons, for many years. At HQ I was in contact with many 6th and 7th Corps in residence there. As the Internet started revealing what went on inside the Corps starting around 2000 I continued my learning of the Corps. I also challenged you on the false dilemma you forwarded over the KJV and other translations as lacking validity or authority in matters of faith because they’re not the original first-edition documents from the Almighty’s publishing company. .This is an extended matter and can take many pages to discuss. We have hardly begun this topic you refer to here. I look forward to facing your challenge here in great detail, as it can find time. Mike, have you ever given much thought as to why wierwille’s books, teachings, etc. never gained much traction outside of TWI? In my humble opinion, it’s because wierwille’s shoddy workmanship, blatant plagiarism, and gross incompetence would NOT survive the close scrutiny, peer review and academic standards of the real world. The only way he could get his stuff to fly the friendly skies of fandom - was by persuading followers to buy into his delusion of greatness. If any folks didn’t “get” his message or see his greatness they are labeled critics, unbelievers, possessed, stupid... or whatever fit the bill to counter attacks on his ministry ...whenever those rank unbelievers “pounced” on him. Oh YES! have thought of that and A LOT! (…resisting temptation to extend my answer here) VPW addressed this issue in the class I think. He said some thing to the effect that if university professorships were awarded to those who produced signs miracles and wonders then there’d be a few empty chairs waiting for occupants. I agree! Academic theologians can be pretty dead. I actually took a class taught personally by Thomas Altizer of “God is dead” fame. This was after I took PFAL. What a trip. There’s probably no college academician who could get thousands to SIT on a very close to “no one gets missed” basis. I’m glad VPW was not aiming the blessings God was showing him to gather at an academic audience. Hmmmm! Maybe that answers a question I just asked So_crates.

Ok. I’m trying to cooperate. If there’s a quick question you want to ask I’ll try to work with it. ESPECIALLY if it’s a quickie, and hopefully it wont be with the intelligence that seeks only to pounce. *** I’m coming and going some here some as I copy old threads to the PDF format. I found that Adobe’s PDF search engine is really good and easy. My extended answers to some extended questions that posters recently ask can be found here in old threads. *** In organizing my manifesto maybe you can answer a question of mine. I have to decide on which kind of audience to address it to. I do not want to try addressing it to non-grads. I prefer to address it to older leader grads (OLGs) who saw the 1070s. I cannot address it to refugees of Craig and TWI after 1989 due to my ignorance. Then there’s PFAL grads who are still Christian believers (whatever that means) vs. recent atheists and agnostics. That’s a tough one. *** Anyway, as I come and go, I’ll check for answers to my audience question, and for any easy quick questions from you.

Well, I left here yesterday morning thinking I had cleaned up everything, and could concentrate on a big writing project. Then I get notifications of 7 or 8 more posts, now I see they are all about me. I thought you folks wanted a break from me? I was very encouraged a few times the other day when a few posters asked me questions on my position. Getting those facts straight was cool. However, in reading over the past page of posts I see MANY more misconceptions or misreadings of what I have posted. I swear, I see two types of intelligence working. One is infrequent and it seeks to understand WHAT is being posted by me. This intelligence asks questions before it pounces. The other intelligence, far more frequent, seeks to pounce first on whatever looks like a good target in my writing, and then it asks questions to seek more targets. You can learn a lot about people from the questions they ask. I spent the past 24 hours pondering lightly the categories in my manifesto that will needed to communicate it. I looked at other threads to see more of where your heads are at after my being gone for ten years. I am searching my own more complete archives for past presentations that will fit into the manifesto project. But what am I going to do with all the simple correctable errors I see in the past 24 hours of posting? I am very thankful to those who have attempted to do some real communicating with me. I invite more to join.

LOL Are you that same girl, Twinky?

It's common for people to be very unclear on what I'm saying.

Finally, I can go off line and feel I've responded to everyone the best I can.

I mean you have been posting and debating with NO CONCEPT of what I was saying until you finally did get it a few minutes ago.

The “smoothing out” our brains tend to do is strong. I had a phone conversation with a very proPFAL person about 10 years ago. She was an early leader, WOW, and all around respected Corps leader. She loved VPW and the class. As we talked I’d give he my thesis on PGAL being God-breathed. She’s say yes, and then move on, but I could tell she didn’t get it. I tried several times, several ways, and every time she’d yes me to death and move on. Finally, I asked her to pull out her PFAL book and read along with me. She gladly did. I was reading a verse, and then I read the text that follows. I called her attention to the verse and said, “That is the written Word of God.” She said yes again. I then called her attention to the following paragraph and said, “That is the written Word of God.” She screamed, hung up the phone, and has not talked to me since.

What I meant there was that it was a project that wasn't finished until 1985. There are three references where VPW closely associates PFAL with The Word, and many more where it is subtle. I covered 22 of them here. That thread is still on the board here. I can find the link if you want. I called them "Thus saith the Lord"n statements.

Correct. I never saw it until 1998. Someone showed it to me, and then I started seeing it in between the lines all through PFAL.

So you too, Twinky, are only now FINALLY understanding what my thesis is? I'm not belittling you, just confirming a common phenomenon. I've seen this in other matters having nothing to do with religion. People tend to "smooth out" what they hear to make it pidgeonhole-able. I've done it. Welcome to the discussion.

I promised Rocky I'd wait on answering you here in detail.