Mike

When I was a twig leader one teaching I would do was to take about 3 verses and have a tall stack of Bible versions to my side. I’d read each verse in every Bible (using bookmarks) and show how much the agreed on most things. The Bibles in that stack belonged to me and I still have them. The problem I have with the Bibles is much more in their translations than in the ancient texts. I do think IN PRINCIPLE they are tattered remnants, but I know there is much agreement there also. This is a subtle subject, but the translation issue is not. The opportunities the adversary had over 2000 years to subtly infiltrate academic institutions are immense. Here we have another extended subject, though. We will have to come back to this sometime.

Twinky, Thank you for your concern and the heart I felt in your post. I spent many years studying my KJV and many other versions. My Cambridge wide margin is stuffed with happy notes. I go to it at times for extended readings and context, but not as much as my earlier years. I still get much exposure to verses and passages as they appear in PFAL. The love of God comes through in those pages to me. I'm not worried about missing needed info that only my KJV or other versions have. We ALL miss many portions of our Bibles, and we all must rely on God that we find portions of His Word we NEED the most in these remaining years. There's no way my simply coming back to Bible versions will cover all that is needed. There's just too much info there that needs too much filtering. A lifetime can't cover it all. Written PFAL is simple and easy to read, and needs not constant textual corrections, and frequent augmentation like Orientalisms and Figures of Speech.

No. I'm being honest with you in saying I don't know it all. I'm settled on some of the books and magazine articles. There are some booklets I'm not sure of. Also, the the Preface to ADAN is by Karen Martin. Don't fully know about that either. Interestingly, there is a huge quote of Kenyon in OMSW. I mentioned that I was very interested in the similar subject when it occurred in the early centuries. I am very interested in how all this works. I study it a lot. I make mistakes and there are gaps in my knowledge.

I think we all were wobbly in our application and understanding of the Law of Believing. From my observations we drifted more into TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) which were launched from our audio memorization of the film class. Our knowledge of the written forms on this Law were scant and fading in large form. Updates in the Way Mag were not rigorously included. We all drifted from the purity pf PFAL, and well before we mastered it. Many mastered the audio only.

T-Bone, No I don't want to be identified with someone who is like you describe. No one would. I’m not sure at all that your description fits VPW. Along with the Pure Evil model the prevails here goes the relatively uncontested notion that the frequency and intensity of the depravity were of the highest nature. I don’t believe evil is that efficient. It gts sloppy and over plays it’s hand all the time in my experience. So, I expect a degree of exaggeration in reports of evil. I came from a Catholic where I was steeped in analysis of sin intensity. I don’t want to severely bias my “fruit data” with your “fruit data.” I trust the “fruit data” I see from PFAL I see in my own life much more than I trust the collective sight of those here to look inside someone else’s’ life for “fruit data.” A judgment of the level of evil that thrived in VPWs life and how often it happened is not something I could trust. It is just not on as sound a footing as my judgment of the “fruit data” in my life from PFAL, and separated from TWI rotten fruit. *** The subject I have been alluding here in several posts is an extended one. It’s the subject of going in and out of fellowship. How much can we do with God in fellowship, then we go out and what happens? Then we get back in fellowship. It gets to be an even bigger topic when we consider us forgiving others for their past sins, and how do we deal with the future in their company. It’s a vast topic, that I have not the time for now, and this would need a separate thread to go as far aw we did ten years ago with it. Fortunately, the end product of PFAL looks completely pure of this to me, so my conscience is clean. Sure I’d prefer to not be identified with evil, so I do not associate with it. I think I was lucky and successful in separating out PFAL from all the evil you talk about, even if it’s as intense as you say. A couple months ago, I mentioned on a thread about referring VPW’s books to people, I reported (again) my conversations with JS of the adultery paper fame and how he agreed that the written forms were free of the TVT (Twi Verbal Traditions) that were dangerous.

Please agree with me that this is all hyperbole or sarcasm or venting, and that you know none of is actually factual. Right?

I am sorry to hear this. I believe it. I know you are not lying to me. I think you are lumping together PFAL with TWI-1,2,3. I think it would be a very difficult thing for you to separate them out. I was lucky here. My devotion to video PFAL went from 1971-87, and I had little interference from TWI. I was VERY lucky in that I hovered very close to top leadership wherever I lived, yet was never snagged by the Corps hassles. Then I took a relative break from my respect for video 1987-1998. Not a total break, but lowered focus and respect. I was not connected to TWI nor to any splinter groups, though I sampled from all. In 1998 I started focusing on written PFAL. So it's EASY for me to separate PFAL, see it's good fruit in my life for 20 years and far from TWI, and not confuse it with all the stench that the ministry became.

I did look it up. I did know the context was prophets. The point you're not seeing yet is that I'm humbly asking "Which fruit? Where?" You seem to be answering this question of mine with the fruit the prophets produce in their own lives. I ask you how do I get a full and accurate view of that fruit in his private, personal life? I can see some, with some accuracy, not not nearly all. And how do I go back in time and ACCURATELY look at ALL the fruit the prophet produced then in his own life? Now, when it comes to me judging a prophet by the fruit he produces (or helps produce) in MY life, that's much easier. If I want to obey Jesus' command, here is where I will put most of my effort.

I have a paper folder file on this topic that I add scraps of paper to whenever I have an idea on it or see some passage that sheds light. This folder was started about 15 years ago. If you have anything to add, I'm open to suggestions. This is a relatively unworked subject on my desk so far. You're right. It is a pesky problem. I used to intensely study, back in the 70s, this exact same problem as it came up in the first century. There were a lot of fights for 400 years as to which books should be or not be included in the Canon. My paper folder on this topic is 2 and 1/2 inches thick.

NO! I am saying that you have to look properly at the fruit, as Jesus said. I think (not totally sure) that means that we look for the fruit WHERE we are able to see it efficiently: within ourselves. It's hard to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in someone else's life. It's much easier and more accurate to look at the ALL the fruit in your own life. I look at the fruit post-1985 TWI produced in my life and I don't like it. I know TWI's fruit in my life is not good. I quit allowing them to teach me, gradually by 1987. I look at the fruit of PFAL in my life, especially the more refined written focus since 1998, and I am happy with what I see. The fruit I see is good, and tht's PART of my proof that PFAL is God-breathed. It's a proof you have to perform to see its merits. I did. I am trying to ACCURATELY follow what Jesus Christ told us in that passage.

I can buy that. I can make mistakes in how I take in what you write. Please do clear up any I may manifest to you. Actually, when I said that to chockful an hour ago, I was a bit sloppy in my addressing. Some of you HAVE allowed me to clear up several minor misconceptions lately. I can’t remember who, and I’m sorry for that. So, So_crates, I may owe you the same apology that I may owe chockfull. I’m slowly getting to know who is who and who said what, but it’s complicated. ptions.

You need to rid yourself of a few misconceptions you have regarding my line of logic. After these are cleared up, then you'll be in a better position to judge consistency.

Thanks, but I have several sets of the books. They've been selling on E-Bay for 20 years. I know some grads who have been buying up the less expensive offerings ever since. Plus they are in PDF format now. Plus, some of them can be purchased (altered editions) at the TWI bookstore.

At least I have come here and to discuss these things. I don't see the TWI people doing that. I do not whitewash the problems. I separate them from the good stuff, though.

I type pretty fast. My reading is much slower, especially if it's more than a page. The time to organize and produce my manifesto is massive. I can bang out these simple issues in very little time. I can do a lot of my unthinking about these issues as I clean windows. Meanwhile, one question and misconception after another are being dealt with.

I had the basics together by 1999, enough FOR ME. I was so certain then that I made a commitment to it, and started living my life that way. For the past 10 years, since I left GreaseSpot, I've been certain enough to stay committed to this. What you fol\ks are asking for is a lot more than just the basics.

T-Bone, I'm not ignoring this. There's just no brief answer possible. I am looking at all the details here, SLOWLY.